Charged me with false accounting. What progress have you made in regards to your claim . You mentioned it is not progressing as quickly as it is not progressing as quickly as it might be. What challenges, we have heard from tony and alan about challenges, what challenges are you facing yourself with regards to your claim . In fact, facing yourself with regards to your claim . Infact, i facing yourself with regards to your claim . In fact, i shouldnt say claim, something we should all learn, it is not compensation, should be renamed. It should be redress. It should be renamed. It should be redress. , , redress. It is so complex because the business redress. It is so complex because the business that redress. It is so complex because the business that i redress. It is so complex because the business that i had redress. It is so complex because the business that i had was redress. It is so complex because the business that i had was a the business that i had was a village shop with a post office and a small fish and chip shop. I bought it alongside with help from my parents, it was supposed to be inheritance for me and a career Going Forwards for the next 110 or 50 years. We have had evidence of his kind of loss that we are claiming for since i was prosecuted and moved from that post office, i didntjust lose the pose of a salary at that point, i was running the salaries as well, but the rumours and people accusing me of being a thief and a fraud meant i couldnt face people so i stood back from the Retail Business as well. In the small community, many people stopped using this shop because they saw us as fraudsters or thieves so notjust the post office, the retail and food side that suffered greatly as well. We havent got all of the documents and information from 15 years ago, we have had to had forensic accountants to go through my accounts, through the business accounts, through the business accounts, to my parents accounts. We have had medical assessments and records, i didnt have any kind of evidence of my gp because although. This i didnt go to the gp to seek help. Weve had to build this. The claim is almost ready to go in though. And whether it will be responded to quickly or not, i dont know. Its taken me three years to get to this point. Weve always been told that we have to go into this amount of detail and it was announced a few months ago that i could take £600,000 with no evidence at all, and anyone Going Forward now has the conviction quashed can sign a piece of paper to say they are innocent and walk away with the money. And ive had a small interim payment. And now the post office have returned the money they demanded that i pay to avoid the theft charge. But its taken three years for them to decide to do that. And it feels like i get the pick of the crumbs from the table. And it always seems when there is a large event, whether its the inquiry restarting the committee, an announcement is made from government or post office to placate us or offer us something that seems to continue outside of waiting. Since 2023 there were continue outside of waiting. Since 2023 there were those continue outside of waiting. Since 2023 there were those convictions, over £600,000. That was settled, and do you think that will speed up the process and what might speed up the process . If process and what might speed up the rocess . ,. ,. , process and what might speed up the rocess . ,. ,. ,. Process and what might speed up the rocess . ,. ,. , process . If people are close to retirement process . If people are close to retirement or process . If people are close to retirement or perhaps process . If people are close to retirement or perhaps had process . If people are close to l retirement or perhaps had small losses or not a huge impact on them, if your claim wasjudged losses or not a huge impact on them, if your claim was judged around that all below it, that would speed that p all below it, that would speed that up but for many people, like myself or other people who suffered worse, as people did Prison Sentences and lost loved ones because of this, £600,000 perhaps doesnt come anywhere near to compensating or redressing them. They still have to go through this extended way of doing it and have their claim fully assessed. ,. ,. , , assessed. The question has been asked in the assessed. The question has been asked in the hearings assessed. The question has been asked in the hearings we assessed. The question has been asked in the hearings we have i assessed. The question has been. Asked in the hearings we have had and can i ask you a personal question, what was your salary when you lost yourjob question, what was your salary when you lost your job from the question, what was your salary when you lost yourjob from the post office . You lost your ob from the post office . ~. , , i i i i office . Mine was ust under £20,000 er office . Mine was ust under £20,000 er ear office . Mine was ust under £20,000 per year because office . Mine wasjust under £20,000 per year because it office . Mine wasjust under £20,000 per year because it was office . Mine wasjust under £20,000 per year because it was a office . Mine wasjust under £20,000 per year because it was a small, per year because it was a small, one count of Retail Business. Mine per year because it was a small, one count of Retail Business. Count of Retail Business. Mine was about 26,000. Count of Retail Business. Mine was about 26,000. The count of Retail Business. Mine was about 26,000. The office count of Retail Business. Mine was about 26,000. The office of about 26,000. The office of remuneration about 26,000. The office of remuneration was about 26,000. The office of remuneration was about about 26,000. The office of remuneration was about 113,000. Remuneration was about 43,000. Obviously remuneration was about 43,000. Obviously It Remuneration was about 43,000. Obviously it is remuneration was about 43,000. Obviously it is a remuneration was about 43,000. Obviously it is a Pittance Remuneration was about 43,000. Obviously it is a pittance and remuneration was about 43,000. Obviously it is a pittance and in. Obviously it is a pittance and in many ways it could be described as below the minimum wage. Absolutely horrendous. Thank you. Just below the minimum wage. Absolutely horrendous. Thank you. Horrendous. Thank you. Just very cuickl , horrendous. Thank you. Just very quickly. Tim. Horrendous. Thank you. Just very quickly. Tim. In horrendous. Thank you. Just very quickly, tim, in fairness horrendous. Thank you. Just very quickly, tim, in fairness to horrendous. Thank you. Just very quickly, tim, in fairness to the l quickly, tim, in fairness to the minister. Quickly, tim, in fairness to the minister. I quickly, tim, in fairness to the minister, i did quickly, tim, in fairness to the minister, i did hear quickly, tim, in fairness to the minister, i did hear that quickly, tim, in fairness to the minister, i did hear that you i quickly, tim, in fairness to the i minister, i did hear that you could have minister, i did hear that you could have got minister, i did hear that you could have got yourself minister, i did hear that you could have got yourself an minister, i did hear that you could have got yourself an interim have got yourself an Interim Settlement have got yourself an Interim Settlement of have got yourself an Interim Settlement of up have got yourself an Interim Settlement of up to have got yourself an interim. Settlement of up to £450,000 have got yourself an Interim Settlement of up to £450,000 in circumstances settlement of up to £450,000 in circumstances such settlement of up to £450,000 in circumstances such as settlement of up to £450,000 in circumstances such as Yours Settlement of up to £450,000 in i circumstances such as yours where settlement of up to £450,000 in circumstances such as yours where it may be circumstances such as yours where it may be that circumstances such as yours where it may be that the circumstances such as yours where it may be that the sum circumstances such as yours where it may be that the sum ultimately circumstances such as yours where it may be that the sum ultimately duel may be that the sum ultimately due to you may be that the sum ultimately due to you is may be that the sum ultimately due to you is significantly may be that the sum ultimately due to you is significantly more may be that the sum ultimately due to you is significantly more than to you is significantly more than £600. 000 to you is significantly more than £600,000. Has to you is significantly more than £600,000. Has that to you is significantly more than £600,000. Has that been to you is significantly more than £600,000. Has that been explored in your circumstances £600,000. Has that been explored in your circumstances or £600,000. Has that been explored in your circumstances or are £600,000. Has that been explored in your circumstances or are you £600,000. Has that been explored in your circumstances or are you aware i your circumstances or are you aware of people your circumstances or are you aware of people taking your circumstances or are you aware of people taking up your circumstances or are you aware of people taking up the your circumstances or are you aware of people taking up the offer your circumstances or are you aware of people taking up the offer of your circumstances or are you aware of people taking up the offer of an. Of people taking up the offer of an interim of people taking up the offer of an interim payment . Of people taking up the offer of an interim payment . That of people taking up the offer of an interim payment . Of people taking up the offer of an interim payment . That offer is very recent and that interim payment . That offer is very recent and that interim interim payment . That offer is very recent and that interim payment. Recent and that interim payment should come when the claim is submitted, and hopefully mine will be submitted soon. Of course the £450,000 is minus any interim payments you have already had. The £600,000 is an awful lot of money to most people, as is the 450000 and that would help me in my situation while the full claim is assessed, greatly, but myself ive got a baby due with my first partner injune this year and i dont want into rooms or steps, i want to be able to not worry about the post office and not worry about the post office and not think about it nearly every day. I want to put it behind me and move on with my life. I want to put it behind me and move on with my life on with my life. Thank you. Thank ou, on with my life. Thank you. Thank you. Chair on with my life. Thank you. Thank you. Chair i on with my life. Thank you. Thank you, chair. I appreciate on with my life. Thank you. Thank you, chair. I appreciate all on with my life. Thank you. Thank you, chair. I appreciate all of on with my life. Thank you. Thank you, chair. I appreciate all of your thoughts on this. Whilst you are not with the post office now, i assume you have friends and former colleagues who still work with the post office and you still have a relationship with the post office as we go through the process. In your view is the culture of the post office changed since you were there . I think they either think weve got away with something or they dont believe our version of the story. I5 believe our version of the story. Is there anything positive about this change . There anything positive about this chance . , there anything positive about this change . Hie. My question is for mr change . Its. My question is for mr higginbotham. I want to ask about the leadership higginbotham. I want to ask about the leadership in higginbotham. I want to ask about the leadership in the higginbotham. I want to ask about the leadership in the post higginbotham. I want to ask about the leadership in the post office. L the leadership in the post office. Youve the leadership in the post office. Youve been the leadership in the post office. Youve been involved the leadership in the post office. Youve been involved for the leadership in the post office. Youve been involved for 25 the leadership in the post office. | youve been involved for 25 years the leadership in the post office. I youve been involved for 25 years in which youve been involved for 25 years in which theres youve been involved for 25 years in which theres been youve been involved for 25 years in which theres been changes youve been involved for 25 years in which theres been changes in which theres been changes in leadership, which theres been changes in leadership, 50 which theres been changes in leadership, so at which theres been changes in leadership, so at any which theres been changes in leadership, so at any time which theres been changes in| leadership, so at any time has which theres been changes in leadership, so at any time has the arrival leadership, so at any time has the arrival of leadership, so at any time has the arrival of a leadership, so at any time has the arrival of a new leadership, so at any time has the arrival of a new chairman leadership, so at any time has the arrival of a new chairman or leadership, so at any time has the arrival of a new chairman or chiefl arrival of a new chairman or Chief Executive arrival of a new chairman or Chief Executive ted arrival of a new chairman or Chief Executive Led you arrival of a new chairman or Chief Executive Led you to arrival of a new chairman or Chief Executive Led you to think, arrival of a new chairman or Chief Executive Led you to think, there | Executive Led you to think, there might Executive Led you to think, there might be Executive Led you to think, there might be someone Executive Led you to think, there might be someone new Executive Led you to think, there might be someone new in Executive Led you to think, there | might be someone new in charge Executive Led you to think, there might be someone new in charge and that might might be someone new in charge and that might make might be someone new in charge and that might make things might be someone new in charge and that might make things difference. Might be someone new in charge and that might make things difference inl that might make things difference in the matter . That might make things difference in the matter . ,. , �. , the matter . Over the years ive done the matter . Over the years ive done the ost the matter . Over the years ive done the post office the matter . Over the years ive done the post office the the matter . Over the years ive done the post office the culture the matter . Over the years ive done the post office the culture has the post office the culture has always been about the post office and it hasnt changed and been the same for donkeys years and it will not change and you cannot change it. My not change and you cannot change it. My personal view about post office is its a dead duck and has been for years and will be a money pit for the taxpayerfor years and will be a money pit for the taxpayer for years to come and you should sell it to somebody like amazon for a pound and get really good contracts from all of the serving Sub Postmasters and in eu years you will have One Of The Best networks around. That years you will have One Of The Best networks around. Networks around. That is a very radical proposal networks around. That is a very radical proposal and networks around. That is a very radical proposal and im networks around. That is a very radical proposal and im not. Networks around. That is a very l radical proposal and im not sure that many of our constituents would be comfortable with it but interesting it comes from you and i just wanted to ask about the more recent leadership, did the leadership of mr reed give you any comfort, hes going to get stuck into sorting out these problems for us . , , ,. , into sorting out these problems for us . , i,. , us . From my perspective and those weve been us . From my perspective and those weve been involved us . From my perspective and those weve been involved with, us . From my perspective and those weve been involved with, its us . From my perspective and those weve been involved with, its not. Weve been involved with, its not about words, its about deeds and we see no deeds that have changed anything. All we hear these words all the time saying yes this has changed, yes we are doing this or that but nothing has changed. The matter of words, we had this claim by the previous chairman which have been substantially refuted but the governments have told him to delay payments. Do you think theres any truth that that might happen . It truth that that might happen . Ut wouldnt surprise me and i dont know factually one way or the other but it does seem to be the way things are going. Taste but it does seem to be the way things are going. Things are going. We have mr staunton in things are going. We have mr staunton in front things are going. We have mr staunton in front is things are going. We have mr staunton in front is late things are going. We have mr staunton in front is late and l things are going. We have mr i staunton in front is late and you will have the opportunity to challenge him. But what i might ask mr bentham and mr downing, when you heard the remarks, what did you think . It heard the remarks, what did you think . , ~ , ,. , ~ , think . It makes sense. It makes sense things think . It makes sense. It makes sense things are think . It makes sense. It makes sense things are slow, think . It makes sense. It makes sense things are slow, that think . It makes sense. It makes sense things are slow, that they j sense things are slow, that they seem to be held up and they go into the machine and sit there for months and months and it does seem that way. Mr and months and it does seem that wa. ~ �. , i and months and it does seem that way i dont and months and it does seem that way. I dont know. And months and it does seem that l way. I dont know one way. Mr bentham . I dont know one way. Mr bentham . I dont know one wa or way. Mr bentham . I dont know One Way Or Another way. Mr bentham . I dont know One Way Or Another. One way. Mr bentham . I dont know One Way Or Another. One thing way. Mr bentham . I dont know One Way Or Another. One thing for way. Mr bentham . I dont know one | way or another. One thing for people in my way or another. One thing for people in my position that seems to cause delay in my position that seems to cause delay is in my position that seems to cause delay is the in my position that seems to cause delay is the layers of people that we have delay is the layers of people that we have to deal with. I know from talking we have to deal with. I know from talking to we have to deal with. I know from talking to my legal team perhaps they agree something in principle with the they agree something in principle with the post office who we deal with the post office who we deal with directly. They then have to get it agreed with directly. They then have to get it agreed with the department and theres it agreed with the department and theres many layers of government we are dealing theres many layers of government we are dealing with to get this process across are dealing with to get this process across. 00 are dealing with to get this process across. Y. , ~ are dealing with to get this process across. ,. , ~. , � , across. Do you think thats because within the post across. Do you think thats because within the post office across. Do you think thats because within the post office and across. Do you think thats because | within the post office and extending into the department there is a mistrust of postmasters. There is definitely a mistrust of postmasters. There is definitely a mistrust mistrust of postmasters. There is definitely a mistrust of mistrust of postmasters. There is definitely a mistrust of What Mistrust of postmasters. There is definitely a mistrust of what we l definitely a mistrust of what we say, ourversion definitely a mistrust of what we say, our version of it, even though weve legally weve been proven right. Weve legally weve been proven riiht. ~. , ~ , right. We have the minister in the room with us right. We have the minister in the room with us and right. We have the minister in the room with us and has right. We have the minister in the room with us and has been right. We have the minister in the room with us and has been stood| right. We have the minister in the l room with us and has been stood at the dispatch box and wants to get the dispatch box and wants to get the money out to the postmasters. Do you believe him, and do you think hes a difference . You believe him, and do you think hes a difference . What will make a difference is hes a difference . What will make a difference is seeing hes a difference . What will make a difference is seeing the hes a difference . What will make a difference is seeing the money difference is seeing the money coming out and then i will believe him in that case. Its unfair on too many people and its been going on forfar too long. I do not know for far too long. I do not know what can be done to speed it up. Weve got to get rid of the bureaucracy and slim down the processes and what you will have to take other peoples words for it. Interesting the observation from the earlier witnesses where is the fact is how much time was spent on someone signing off, and one of the big problems i found with this all starting to find is that those making the decisions about the actual claims and what claims are going to be made do not meet the victims face to face and discuss it with them. Its all done from an ivory tower, from someone else ticking a box and thats it. Their job is done in out of the way. Does that lead to job is done in out of the way. Does that lead to a job is done in out of the way. Does that lead to a lack job is done in out of the way. Does that lead to a lack of that lead to a lack of understanding that lead to a lack of understanding that you and your colleagues face . The position you and your colleagues face . I the position you and your colleagues face . The position you and your colleagues face . I can hopefully describe it colleagues face . I can hopefully describe it in colleagues face . I can hopefully describe it in a colleagues face . I can hopefully describe it in a way colleagues face . I can hopefully describe it in a way you colleagues face . I can hopefully describe it in a way you understand. When we were campaigning for this over the years and people were saying, ive tried to take this up with my mp and all of the rest of it and the problems im having, i would say, dontjust write them a letter, dontjust phone them, make an appointment, go and see them. Tell them face to face what is going on and ive heard from many people that what was meant to be a 15 or 20 minute surgery session has turned into a couple of hours because they have been so concerned about what theyve heard face to face and i think that makes a big difference. Im pretty sure my colleague sitting around the horseshoe would agree with that if we hear somebody� s account on a one to one basis we have a better understanding of something than receiving an e mail. One thing about you taking the process though it post Office Coming out of the process, but we need information from post office and we need some disclosure and perhaps the post office is on providing the information as fast as it might, but how would the Situation Exist without them providing information . It Situation Exist without them providing information . It has to be there, but providing information . It has to be there. But i providing information . It has to be there, but i would providing information . It has to be there, but i would take providing information . It has to be there, but i would take the providing information . It has to be there, but i would take the control| there, but i would take the control of it from the post office and put somebody in there, or are teeming in there, to actually manage them and drive them forward to do it. The rose drive them forward to do it. The prose office drive them forward to do it. The prose office premises, go down there . Investigators on some sort . Of some sort. Give them some real power the post office premises. Its a Brief Question and what you are saying. Its a Brief Question and what you are saying. And its a Brief Question and what you are saying, and in its a Brief Question and what you are saying, and in my its a Brief Question and what you i are saying, and in my constituency there are saying, and in my constituency there wasnt are saying, and in my constituency there wasnt anybody are saying, and in my constituency there wasnt anybody who are saying, and in my constituency there wasnt anybody who came i there wasnt anybody who came forward there wasnt anybody who came forward until there wasnt anybody who came forward until after there wasnt anybody who came forward until after the there wasnt anybody who came forward until after the itb forward until after the itb dramatisation. Forward until after the itb dramatisation. Not forward until after the itb dramatisation. Not one, i forward until after the itb. Dramatisation. Not one, and forward until after the itb dramatisation. Not one, and there forward until after the itb dramatisation. Not one, and there is no more dramatisation. Not one, and there is no more come dramatisation. Not one, and there is no more come forward dramatisation. Not one, and there is no more come forward since dramatisation. Not one, and there is no more come forward since then. Dramatisation. Not one, and there is| no more come forward since then but there no more come forward since then but there are no more come forward since then but there are also no more come forward since then but there are also people no more come forward since then but there are also people who no more come forward since then but there are also people who i no more come forward since then but there are also people who i know no more come forward since then but| there are also people who i know who i did there are also people who i know who i did not there are also people who i know who i did not realise there are also people who i know who i did not realise who there are also people who i know who i did not realise who has there are also people who i know who i did not realise who has been there are also people who i know who i did not realise who has been part. I did not realise who has been part of the i did not realise who has been part of the scandal i did not realise who has been part of the scandal and i did not realise who has been part of the scandal and theyve i did not realise who has been part of the scandal and theyve been i i did not realise who has been part. Of the scandal and theyve been kept quiet because of the scandal and theyve been kept quiet because of of the scandal and theyve been kept quiet because of the of the scandal and theyve been kept quiet because of the shame of the scandal and theyve been kept quiet because of the shame of of the scandal and theyve been kept quiet because of the shame of whatl quiet because of the shame of what they were quiet because of the shame of what they were accused quiet because of the shame of what they were accused of quiet because of the shame of what they were accused of and quiet because of the shame of what they were accused of and ive quiet because of the shame of whatj they were accused of and ive asked them they were accused of and ive asked them to they were accused of and ive asked them to get they were accused of and ive asked them to get an they were accused of and ive asked them to get an assistant they were accused of and ive asked them to get an Assistant Book they were accused of and ive asked i them to get an Assistant Book claims forward them to get an Assistant Book claims forward in them to get an Assistant Book claims forward in they them to get an Assistant Book claims forward in they are them to get an Assistant Book claims forward in they are very them to get an Assistant Book claims forward in they are very very forward in they are very very reluctant forward in they are very very reluctant and forward in they are very very reluctant and they forward in they are very very reluctant and they have forward in they are very very| reluctant and they have been cancellations, reluctant and they have been cancellations, and reluctant and they have been cancellations, and i reluctant and they have been cancellations, and i feel reluctant and they have been cancellations, and i feel on. Reluctant and they have been cancellations, and i feel on some occasions cancellations, and i feel on some occasions people cancellations, and i feel on some occasions people have cancellations, and i feel on some occasions people have not cancellations, and i feel on some occasions people have not underl cancellations, and i feel on some. Occasions people have not under any circumstances, occasions people have not under any circumstances, regardless occasions people have not under any circumstances, regardless of occasions people have not under any circumstances, regardless of what i circumstances, regardless of what happened circumstances, regardless of what happened to circumstances, regardless of what happened to them circumstances, regardless of what happened to them and circumstances, regardless of what happened to them and and circumstances, regardless of what happened to them and and and i circumstances, regardless of what i happened to them and and and how badly happened to them and and and how badly they happened to them and and and how badly they were happened to them and and and how badly they were treated, happened to them and and and how badly they were treated, its happened to them and and and how badly they were treated, its a happened to them and and and how badly they were treated, its a fair. Badly they were treated, its a Fair Assessment badly they were treated, its a Fair Assessment. It badly they were treated, its a Fair Assessment assessment. It is true and it happened assessment. It is true and it happened in assessment. It is true and it happened in many assessment. It is true and it happened in many cases assessment. It is true and it| happened in many cases and assessment. It is true and it happened in many cases and its been a real struggle to get people to come out and and speaking to some of the friendly legal teams involved and take them through the process and take them through the process and do come forward, because this is the right time to come forward for anyone. L the right time to come forward for an one. ,. ,. ,. , anyone. I ust want to check a coule anyone. I ust want to check a couple of anyone. I just want to check a couple of problems
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