Women and girls were expected, by and large, to stay in the background. Now, you today have a very powerful, unique, creative voice. You use it loudly. How difficult was it to find that voice, to make that move away . Now, i should say, i do come from a traditional observant background. However, my father is a professor of history. So from that perspective, i came from an intellectually very open culture, even whilst, yes, i have been to a talk as a young woman on the subject, the beauty of a woman is in her silence. So, yes. And you were brought up in a religion and you talk about it quite openly in stuff youve written about your past, where at school, every morning, everybody said, thank you, god, for not making me a slave. And then the boys said, thank you, god, for not making me a woman. Yes. And the girls say, thank you, god, for making me according to your will. Yes, its, in some ways, quite a misogynist religion. I think that is a very misogynist type of prayer. I think i became increasingly. Well, i certainly increasingly had the feeling that it was not the right place for me. It was emotionally difficult to figure that out. My family didnt make it difficult, i must say. There wasnt real and deep conflict in the home . In the home, no. Certainly, i did lose friends when i decided that i wasnt going to be orthodox any more and i had to really rethink what my place in the world was, who i was, what i believed in. I mean, that was the big work of my 30s, really, was of unknitting that, but also the process of writing my first novel, disobedience, which is set in the orthodoxJewish Community and is about a relationship between two women in that community. The process of writing that book, ithink, helped me to think through where i was, where i wanted to be with it. I started writing the book religious, and at the end, i finished the book, i published the book, and i thought, oh, i dont think im going to be orthodox any more. Yeah, the book, it became a very successful film as well, also called disobedience. Many people probably will have seen it or read about it. And ijust wonder the degree to which one of the two central characters, because it involves two young women who actually were brought up together in, as it happens, a north london Jewish Community. In hendon, where i grew up. Yeah, as it happens. And they clearly, as teenagers, had a love affair. Indeed, it was a physical, a sexual love affair. But then one of them, ronit, made a life far away from that community. She was a creative. She went to new york city. She was a photographer. The other, Herformer Lover friend, esti, stayed at home. Ronit comes back because her father has died, a rabbi. And the question is, will they rekindle that love affair . Was there a lot of you in ronit . Theres a lot of me in both of them. If youre going to say to me, well, did you ever have an affair with a rabbis daughter . No, i never did have an affair with a rabbis daughter when i was living in hendon. I wasnt going to be quite that literal. But, certainly, yes, theres a lot of me in ronit and theres a lot of me in esti. When i was writing the book, i was still religious, so in a sense, it was. And very observant, is what i mean. I was observing the sabbath, i was keeping all the kosher food laws. You use this word frum, which is the word. I guess, its originally, what, a yiddish word. A yiddish word, yes. Which describes the Classic Observant Look and behaviour. And for the women who are frum, many of them choose to wear a wig in public. Right, yes. You do that if youre married. You wouldnt do that if you were single. But, yes, i think it was a conversation with myself in many ways, that book, was to think, what will that life be like if i cease to be orthodox . What will i miss . What will be the freedoms . I was trying to imagine it. I got it quite right, actually. Ronit was my fantasy. She was as if i had hurled a version of myself into the future and then went racing after it. At that time, i was esti. It just strikes me that theres a great deal of honesty in all of your work. Were going to get to your later work in just a moment. But throughout your work, there is this sort of searing determination to tell the truth about yourself and the world around you. And i just wonder whether, you know, as you reflect on all of the stuff youve done, whether you feel that has sometimes got you into trouble and caused you a lot of pain. Oh, its never as much pain to tell the truth as it is to keep on lying. The greatest Freedom In The World is to be able to say exactly who you are and exactly what you think. You know, some of my later work has dealt with feminist themes and. I have in the past had, for example, people saying to me, oh, how can you write these things about saudi arabia . Where i criticise the Saudi Arabian governments treatment of women in my novel the power. And i think, well, if you are living in a country where you dont have to have a male guardian whose permission you need to go travelling, then, actually, as a woman you have a sort of duty to talk about the women who are living less free lives than that not to rose tint it, not to go along with the sort of, oh, well, you know, what can you expect . But to say, this is the truth, this is whats happening. The powers a fascinating book because, it seems to me, it introduces your love of Science Fiction and melds that with another thing that runs through your creative life, which is a deep knowledge of classical stories, of the bible, of history. And you kind of meld this sort of futurology with this deep knowledge of the past. And in the power, you apply it to a sort of Fantasy Story which posits the notion that girls, young women, acquire this special power to conduct electricity, and suddenly the entire world is flipped. Well, we all have the power to conduct electricity thats what will kill you if you get struck by lightning. They have the power to generate electricity. Very good point. A technical point, but a very important one. And the point then, when girls and women develop this power, is that they can completely shift the Power Dynamic in society. What is generally a patriarchal, man led world suddenly becomes open to the imposition of power from women. Right. Yes. It was, in some ways, inspired by a conversation with a male friend, who said to me, oh, no, women arejust nicer. And i kept saying, no, itsjust that women are less physically strong. And he said, well, whats the difference . If youre less physically strong and that means youre less aggressive, thatjust means youre nicer. And i was like, let me show you what the difference is. So in the novel the power, women essentially become on average more capable of doing physical violence than men. Thats really the distinction. Notjust capable, but they do it. Oh, they certainly do. Well, so, we have to ask ourselves, do we think that women get into fewer fights because women are just nicer . Or do we potentially think that its because women are making a judgment call and going, ah, im not going to do well if there is a physical fight here . See, whats fascinating is that the book came out actually just a year or two before the world was swept by the metoo movement. Right. When the revelations about Harvey Weinstein and others and their behaviour in hollywood caused revulsion, certainly in the western world, all of these men acting with such abusive, entitled power toward women. Yes. I dont think it was news to a lot of women that men were doing that. I think people talk about these whisper networks. I think that there had been, for a long time, women saying to one another, watch out for him. Dont be in a taxi alone with him. Dont go up to his hotel room, etc, etc. So. Based on what youve just said to me, im thinking maybe you, naomi alderman, believe that if the Power Dynamic were different, the physical Power Dynamic were different, women. Yeah. Would be just as capable of that level of systemic, abusive behaviour as men. Do you believe that . Of course i do. I dont think that there exists such a thing as a group of people who are immune from doing wrong things. Most men are very nice and most women are very nice. But within both of those groups, all groups, there are always a few people who will mess it up for Everybody Else. So you cant go around saying. You know, to me, it is not feminism to say all women are lovely and all men are terrible. Thats just. I mean, also, its a fantasy. You know, in other countries, particularly in america, people say, oh, wouldnt a woman president just be kinder and more loving . , and so on. And then i say, well, i grew up in the uk under margaret thatcher. Do me a favour. You know, in this country, she certainly had the reputation of. You know, she was a hard talker, actually, and somebody who made, yeah, made a reputation as a tough person. A few years back, we had Margaret Atwood on this programme, the canadian novelist who has had enormous success, most particularly for many people with the handmaids tale and her creation of this dystopian world, gilead, where men are totally in control, women are subjugated and are, frankly, little more than vessels for reproduction. Was it. I know youve worked with margaret. I have. And i just wonder whether she and you took enormous pleasure from creating your world, where everything is reversed and women are capable of that level of subjugation of men. Right, so i had the Great Fortune to be paired with margaret for a years Mentorship Programme by rolex, the watch people. And, you know, those things dont always work, but in our case, were still friends more than a decade later. And we have great conversations. And one of the conversations that we had very early on was that thought, are women nicer than men . And i think we both have encountered in our lives really nice women and also really horrible women. And i suspect that anybody watching this programme, if they say to themselves, can you think of any horrible women who you would not like to have the ability to electrocute people . Because you think they would not use that well, i think we can all probably bring somebody to mind. So, yes. There is also this cultural conditioning, all that sort of thing, but, fundamentally, yeah. 0k. I want to carry that thought, then, through to the latest book youve written, the latest novel, the future, which addresses the power that the tech titans have in our world today. Now, yours are fictional tech titans. Two of the most prominent are men. And if one looks at the real world and, of course, the real world does matter to you because its your Source Material pretty much all of the biggest tech titans who play such an influential role in the world are men. Mm hm. Do you think that is relevant to the way they behave . Do i think its. . I mean, it depends what youre asking me. If youre saying to me, do i think testosterone causes that . No. Do i think that the world as it exists thinks that people who are taller. This is true people who are taller earn more, whether youre a man or a woman. So thats just because of what we value. So, do i think that men are more likely to be able to get their tech start ups funded . Yes, i do. Do i think that they are more likely to be left in charge of their companies . Yes, i do. I mean, you dont use the names zuckerberg, musk. I dont want them to sue me you dont want them to. But clearly, loosely, the characters you create are based on some of the things that they have done and possibly may do in the future. I mean, you know, i did have a good time writing this book, and i hope the readers have a good time reading it. In many ways, you cant come up with anything better than the truth, which is. I never thought to put in that Mark Zuckerberg and elon musk would challenge each other to a cage fight, but that has really happened. So, i wish i had thought of that. But, yes. I mean, in a sort of example of fact and fiction eliding, Mark Zuckerberg reported by Wired Magazine to be spending many, many tens of millions of dollars building a sort of apocalypse proof bunker in an island in hawaii. Yes, in hawaii, i believe, yes. Now, this entire story of yours is premised on the notion that these most powerful global Tech Billionaires get information that the end of the world is coming. And they all make their plans to build a safe space for themselves, to survive while Everybody Else dies. Mm hm. Yeah, theyre all planning that. Yeah. What, actually, is going on here, do you think . Is it some sort of determination that the richest, most powerful men in the world want to sort of find a way to cheat death . I mean, that certainly. I do think that Science Fiction writers have to hold their hands up here and say that, look, Technology Billionaires have become arguably some of, if not the most, powerful people in the world very, very quickly. Do you see them as dangerous . Yes, i do. Yes. At least, i would say, anybody in this position would be dangerous. This is the point and this is also the point about my novel the power, which is once people have power, there is a syndrome of power toxicity. You become less and less able to even hearfrom people who disagree with you, much less to be able to understand in the round that you might not be the right person to deal with all of the problems confronting you. You become more and more able to shape the world around you, such that youre not having to listen to that, and you start making worse and worse decisions. So theres a brilliant book which im sure you know, robert caro� s book the power broker, about robert moses, the great architect of new york city. And this is his trajectory. He starts out in the 1930s as an idealistic young man who wants to put baby changing shelters into central park. And by the end, hes demolishing communities of black and hispanic people whilst rooting his road around the house of his friends. So thats how that works. You just. The more power you get, the more people are attracted to you who want to use that power. So, i dont think i would be better if i had the power that Mark Zuckerberg or elon musk has. I dont think you would be better, or anybody watching the programme. I think that we need to think about how were going to introduce term limits, checks and balances, breaking up the companies through Competition Laws in order to be able for them to not have that concentration of power. There is, then, an ambiguity to your message about technology, because on one level, you clearly love technology. I do. Youve made plenty of money out of Computer Games in your past. In my present. And your present. And youre a bit of a geek, if i may say so. I am. I love a bit of doctor who. Wrote a doctor who novel. Did you . Yeah. And so. Come clean with me. Do you think technology, in the end, is a huge net positive for humanity or not . All right. Lets take an example of technology for example, a knife. You can use a knife to cut up a salad, to carve a lovely wooden carving or to Stab Somebody in the chest. So, is a knife a net positive or a net negative . And you would say the same of ai, would you . Imean, yeah. Its just a tool and, really, all that matters is us humans and the motivations we have when we use that tool . The difficulty with al is that were starting to relate to it or it encourages us to relate to it as if its a person. Its not a person. Its a large language model is what weve got right now. Its a very sophisticated form of autocorrect, which weve all been using for years, or autotype. Well, hang on, it can be much more than that in the future, cant it . I mean, as soon as you apply the word generative to it, it is getting a degree of autonomy that its never had before. And autonomy is surely the key to a potentially dystopian future where machines are doing stuff that we certainly didnt tell them to do. I mean, only if we decide we want that future. I think theres a lot of Science Fiction in there. I mean, youre not going to tell me that you think that these machines are conscious, that theyre sitting around thinking thoughts about us when were not there. Somebody said to me, oh, but i relate to my phone as if its a person. Im like, yes, but your phone doesnt relate to you in that way. The phone isjust a. Its a tool. Its a very sophisticated tool. Its like the sat nav that. You know, thats marvellous if you cant find your way somewhere incredible, so useful. And dont follow it if it tells you to drive into a lake. So, as long as we dont put them in charge of our lives, were going to be fine, we can use them, theyll be lovely. At the point that we start to think, oh, they can reason better than we can, which they cannot, let me tell you. So, this is a sort of end of days novel, but you dont think the end of days are upon us . I mean, the end of days in some level are always upon us. I dont mean completely literally. Im not expecting you to tell me, yeah, armageddon is coming in three weeks� time. But there are many people who have a very bleak perspective on where humanity is going. All right, yes. Im just trying to tease out whether you do or not. Were never doomed. You know, there are always things we can do. We should definitely not be putting ai in charge of whether or not we launch nuclear missiles. I would say that very clearly. We can use. You know, its brilliant to use your software for accounting, but we must not put it in charge of life and death, or even livelihood, situations. Unfortunately, we do seem to feel that we would like to do that. So, is the future going to be terrible . This is what the book is about. It is. And its about, if i may say so, i mean, having read it, its about whether human beings are going to step up to the plate and find their better selves. Correct. And do the work to actually improve the situation on our fragile planet. Yes, its a book about the things we would have to do to improve it, which is all possible. So the technologies exist for us to, for example, regrow the coral reefs. The possibilities exist for us to now take extremely seriously Climate Change and to really mitigate that as much as we can. The question is whether were going to. I want to ask you before we end about something in the real world which is more pressing and more dominant in the News Headlines day by day, which i know is something you think about. Youve described your devastation at the violence weve seen over the last three months in israel and in gaza. Now, you, of course, are from a Jewish Community in north london, but i know you have family who serve in the idf in israel. And im just wondering, as a novelist, with a novelist� s eye which you bring to futurology, you bring to technology, you bring to religion, you bring to a discussion of all sorts of things in the real world, with a novelist� s eye, do you see this room for hope, for the better human self coming forward in The Middle East . All right, theres always room for hope. I think, if you wanted my deep analysis of this, we would need not just 25 minutes, but at least 25 hours to talk about it. I think the situation is awful. Its just. There is no moral position to take up other than to just grieve that this is whats happening. Do you think the people you see are able to grieve for the loss and the pain on both sides . Well, certainly, i grieve for the loss and pain on both sides every day. I think if youre in a position where your children are being killed or kidnapped, i think it is very, very difficult to even physically downregulate to the point that you can think coherently. And, you know, i dontjudge anybody who is speaking from pain or not able to necessarily think as they might otherwise think about these things. I said at the very beginning that sometimes talented writers of fiction can reveal a truth, find a clarity, that those of us who deal in sort of news, information, facts, evidence cant always find. Do you sometimes look at a Human Conflict like that and think, you know, id like to bring my novelist� s sensibility to it, i could do something with that, maybe find a pathway to a truth there . I do sometimes think about that, and certainly its in my mind to write something. You know, i always try and find a different way into a subject. Ithink. God knows that the situation in The Middle East is. You know, there is no other place in the world which has so many sacred sites in such a tiny area. I think that is always going to be extraordinarily difficult. But, yeah, its something that i would like to think about and maybe write about. In terms of hope, i mean. Look, this is a terrible kind of hope, but it is nice, which is my Lockdown Project was that i studied arabic, and im already quite a fluent hebrew speaker, and it is devastating how similar arabic and hebrew are to the point that as a hebrew speaker, the grammatical structures are the same, people who know either arabic or hebrew, if i say that the verbs take a paalform, or in arabic, faal, and the way that the tenses are conjugated is the same. Theres a commonality there. About a third of the vocabulary is the same. So that is heartbreaking and devastating, and yet somehow must remain hopeful. Its a very powerful metaphor. I just want to end this conversation taking you back to the beginning we talked about how you had to leave your own community to find your true voice. I just wonder whether that. You know, now thinking about change and whether people and communities can change, has your community changed sufficiently that you are now able to go back and be at ease in that community which you left . Right, well, iwill tell you a lovely story from the community that i come from, which is a friend recently showed me photos from an Engagement Party that she had been to in the modern orthodox, but in the orthodox community, which was an Engagement Party between two young women. And this would not have been possible when i was growing up. Absolutely not. And to the extent that my work is part of a movement that has made that happen, i cannot but be hopeful. Naomi alderman, its been a pleasure having you on hardtalk. Thank you very much. Thank you. Hello. There may be a hiccup along the way, but by and large, for the rest of this week, its looking better than it has done in recent weeks, with the tendency for most of us to be a good deal drier. Things will become windier again as we go through the week and thats because were stuck in a bit of a tussle between High Pressure building across scandinavia high generally means dry weather and low pressure out in the atlantic. And, whilst they try to get closer, High Pressure will be the dominant feature. Tuesday, however, will be a bit of a transition day of sorts. Now, we start with a bit of frost across central, western england and wales, certainly frost free towards the east and thats because weve got a Weather Frontier which has become stranded as we go into the start of the day. Cloud, outbreaks of rain, quite misty around hills and coasts, too. Itll sit there all day long around some coastal districts. It may brighten up a touch inland, chance of a few heavier showers and a rumble of thunder towards the far southeast, and some showers in the morning in Northern Ireland will work through into western scotland. Elsewhere, most of you will be dry the odd shower cant be ruled out, but itll be quite pleasant in the sunny spells that develop. Now, as we go through into tuesday night, that Weather Front is still there in some form. So plenty of clouds, still the chance of some light rain or drizzle, and a bit of a breeze blowing across the north and east of scotland, as well see through tuesday itself. But into wednesday morning, its a case of the frost will be quite extensive again in Western Parts of england and wales, as well as western scotland, and maybe a bit in Northern Ireland. Its here we start wednesday with the sunshine. A few showers maybe towards the far west of cornwall later on. Always more cloud in northeastern england, eastern scotland, with the tendency for some drizzle on the hills. A brighter day and drier day for some other parts of eastern england, and temperatures creeping a little bit above where we should be for this stage in the year. Now, as we go into Wednesday Night and thursday, High Pressure builds a bit more and low pressure gets closer. We squeeze the isobars together more, so therell be more of a breeze by the time we hit thursday. That will bring a bit more cloud across northern and eastern areas the greater chance of 1 2 showers drifting in, as well. Many, though, to the south and west will stay dry and, because that wind coming in from the south easterly direction, its these areas most favoured for the best of the sunshine. Feeling a little bit cooler, especially in the cloudier spots, compared with wednesday. Into friday and the weekend a lot of dry weather to begin with, but theres a greater chance of a bit of rain developing here and there as we go into saturday and sunday. Take care. Live from london this is bbc news. The us gets ready for super tuesday, one of the biggest days in the race for the white house. Haiti remains in a State Of Emergency after Armed Gang Release Thousands Of Inmates from prison. And as the uk waits for wednesdays budget, bbc verify looks back at last years pledges. Hello. A very good morning to you. Im marc ashdown. We begin in the us, the biggest day so far in the 2024 race for the white house is here super tuesday, as its known. Voters from 15 states, and one territory, will choose candidates for president , the first voting will get under way in Virginia Injust a few hours� time. It promises to be a big day for polling, but lets face it President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump there they are are almost certain to face each other again in novembers election. Some states had tried to exclude mr trump from the ballot, but the Supreme Court on monday over ruled that. Live now to robin swanson, whos a political strategist and a former spokesperson for the Democratic Party in california. Super tuesday is always a Pivotal Moment an exciting day in the calendar, when the president ial election really comes alive also a Pivotal Moment for the republican contender nikki haley
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