There is a deep, bleeding hole in my heart. Alexei was not only, like, a political leader, he was also a very close friend. And, you know, in the last years when he was imprisoned, and we were exchanging emails, were often discussing, like, the future and how we will go there and here, and discuss this and that, and do this and that. And its hard for mejust to get used to this new world where alexei isnt here any more, because he was a great personality who was, like, really able to fill any room where he was in. And hes very much missed. I understand the deep grief. Would it also be fair to use the word despair about your current feeling . No, thats not correct. Alexi was a very inspirational leader, and his main slogan was, like, never give up. And if there is one thing that weve learned from him in the many years that we worked together i worked together with him for 13 years was this thing, like, never give up. To be in despair would make his sacrifice in vain, would be betrayal of his legacy, of his political legacy. And thats something that we will never do. This is a very personal question, and probably quite a difficult one, but i know that you, alongside his family, led by Yulia Navalnaya his now widow you were all discussing with him the decision he took to go back to russia, after getting to germany to recuperate from that novichok poisoning. You have said that you didnt really try to dissuade him from going back and given everything that has happened, do you now wish you had tried harder . As i explained many times in many interviews, we never actually had this discussion. Even when alexei was still in coma after the novichok Poisoning Attempt in august 2020, we all knew i mean his family and Close Friends we all knew that he will go back to russia as soon as possible, as soon as he recovers, because that was his way. He was a russian politician who never did anything wrong, and always wanted the best for his country. He wanted to be with his people. Well, now hes buried there in moscow. Im sure that. There was no other option for Alexei Navalny otherwise, it wouldnt be Alexei Navalny. So, once again, we never, ever had a discussion of whether he should go or stay. I mean, ijust asked you whether you regretted that you didnt have that discussion. Youre telling me, well, it would have been pointless, but i mean, you could have tried. We could have tried many things differently. Life has a way of Making Decisions and going through some forks. But i mean. Regretting the past. Is not really useful. The decisions that were taken were taken in that context, in that mood, in that historical moment. It was before the war, of course. What we didnt expect was the level of craziness that Vladimir Putin had. Thats true that, when he returned to russia injanuary 202i, no one expected that putin would just, like, start a full scale war on the European Continentjust in the year after. And when it happened, we realised how crazy putin actually is, and how we actually underestimated it. And then we started to try our best to get alexei out of there, to get him out of russia. Yeah. I have a couple of brief questions about the specific circumstances of Alexei Navalny� s death. Your colleague, who is currently chair, i believe, of the board of the Anti Corruption foundation, Maria PevchikhMaria Pevchikh has said that, just before navalny died, there was a prisoner swap deal in the offing, which would have seen navalny released from prison, sent to the west in exchange, she says, for vadim kalashnikov, a russian hit man who was serving a Life Sentence for murder in germany for killing a Chechen Rebel commander. Is that your information, too . And what proof do you have . Because the germans havent confirmed this story. I rely entirely on what maria says, and i can only second to her words. She was trying tirelessly, for those two years, to. Orchestrate, to make such a deal possible. I can say that i always had doubts, if its actually possible, in the sense that i never thought that there is a solid reason for putin to release navalny. Putin had some kind of, you know, religious fear for Alexei Navalny, as you know, he never called him by name. He always very manually controlled all this torture that happened to Alexei Navalny during three years of his imprisonment. And my thinking was that, while our colleagues were tirelessly working with foreign governments to try to make such a Prisoner Exchange deal possible, putin will not go for it like, at the very last moment, he will cancel, or he will suggest something else. And indeed. What i did expect. You and others, leonid volkov, have quite explicitly blamed putin for navalny� s death. You say that navalny� s blood is on putins hands. But. Yes. Again, the Russian Investigation is ongoing, as i understand it. No, no, no. Hang on, but ive got to say this, because its important Dmitry Peskov, the kremlin spokesman, has made it plain that Yulia Navalnayas suggestion that her husband was killed by novichok poisoning inside the Prison Peskov has said thats obnoxious, its absolutely unsubstantiated. So, again, it comes down to credibility of evidence. Do you have evidence . Let me recall that Dmitry Peskov is a war criminal, first of things. In citing Dmitry Peskov or Vladimir Putin, you have to remind who they are. These people are lying always, thats theirjob. They lie when they open their mouths. There is no official investigation in russia. The official cause of death, according to russian authorities, is a death of natural reasons and it isnt. Alexei navalny was murdered by Vladimir Putin. 0ur Investigative Team is working on this, we will publish all the material well have in due time. Back to your question of these Exchange Talks i never expected that putin would actually release him, but i didnt expect that he would just kill him in order not to continue this discussion of a possible Prisoner Exchange. And thats what happened. You personally were clearly very moved by the numbers of russians who defied Police Tactics and repression, and who came out to express their grief whether it be at the impromptu memorials in different russian cities, or indeed at the funeral on march 1st. And altogether, if you total up the numbers, there were thousands of russians who took that decision to go public with their grief and their sympathy for mr navalny. Ultimately, though, we now know hundreds of those people have been arrested. We believe, according to the 0vd info site, which collects human rights evidence inside russia, that facial Recognition Technology is still being used to arrest and detain people who made those public expressions. Do you believe that the numbers who are prepared to risk their personal security go beyond these thousands . How far does it go . According to our estimates, approximately 40,000 russians participated in navalny� s funeral, and then came to say goodbye to him in the next few days, on saturday and sunday, march 2nd and 3rd. This is also verified by independentjournalistic outlets, such as mediazona, very reputable ones. 40,000 participated, while Eight Million watched the funeral online. And this ratio, 200 to one, is very characteristic for the level of repression and fear. So, every of these very brave people who participated in the funeral in person is just like a tip of an iceberg, who represented 200 people who were sympathetic, but were unable to take the risks, were unable to come, were unable to, yeah, to be subject for police investigation, camera recognition, potential arrest, harassment by the police, etc. And the fact that, first of all, millions viewed online, and second, 40,000 still participated despite all the risks, is actually something very encouraging, i would say, because, as someone tweeted. 0k, yeah. Hang on, hang on, i want to ask you a follow up question. So, those numbers are very interesting, particularly if youre talking about millions who followed the funeral through your social media broadcasts, which you personally were intimately involved with. The question for many of those people now is, where does the leadership come from, now that navalny, the inspiration, the charismatic leader, is dead . And youre his former chief of staff, youve worked with navalny for much more than a decade. You now have to think of the future. Where does the leadership come from now . So, let me finish, because there is a very important thought that i really like. You cant imagine Tens Of Thousands of people chanting Hitler Is A Murderer in berlin in, like, 1944. But thats what happened in moscow last weekend. And it was also inspired by Yulia Navalnayas leadership navalny� s wife, widow who publicly announced she would step in in a public role to continue as her late husbands ghost. And we saw also, based on the reaction in russian social media and among our supporters, that this was also an important source of inspiration. So, is that your first answer to me about leadership, leonid volkov, that we should be looking to Yulia Navalnaya . I noticed that she made a speech before the european parliament. Shes just released a rather well produced video, echoing her late husbands call that russians should express their opposition to putin by Gathering At Noon On March 17th at Polling Stations when, of course, the president ial election is taking place to embody a resistance and opposition to putin. I wonder whether you are now pushing yulia forward . Youre a very experienced campaign manager, are you working with her . Well, im working at the Anti Corruption foundation, the organisation that alexei has founded. Yulia was a chairwoman of Advisory Board of the organisation. Now she announced that she would continue alexeis work, which means that she will do more in a public role. You mentioned the video that she released today about the Political Campaign against putin on the voting day. You mentioned the speech she did in strasbourg addressing the european parliament. So, she is, in fact, doing what the political leaders should do, given the circumstances. But does she hang on does she want this Leadership Role . Because in the past, weve heard her say that she much preferred to be behind the scenes. She would advise her husband on speech making, but she didnt want to make the speeches herself. But has that fundamentally changed . And is she now the de facto leader of your Anti Corruption movement but the wider Opposition Movement . Well, this has changed, obviously, on february 16th. And it happened that i was in munich at the Security Conference alongside yulia on february 16th, and, of course, it hasnt been an easy decision for her to take this responsibility and the weight, and the risks of the public leadership of the organisation. But she did it. I mean, thats here. And we, as navalny� s organisation, are, of course, 100 supportive of this decision. And the whole apparatus of the Anti Corruption foundation, russias leading Opposition Organisation is, of course, now supporting Yulia Navalnaya. Interesting you put it like that, but if i may, isnt there a fundamental problem here . We started our discussion talking about navalny� s motivations you said you never tried to really raise with him whether it was wise to go back to russia because navalny� s conviction was quite clear. To be the leader of a russian opposition to putin, he felt he absolutely had to be inside russia to be credible, to be able to lead the russian people. Yulia navalnaya is not in russia. She shows no sign right now of wanting to, or being able to return to russia. And isnt that going to be a fundamental weakness Going Forward . Yulia navalnaya is not a copy or a clone of alexei. Shes a different person with different convictions and ideas, and different ways to navigate the political landscape. And the times have, of course, very much changed. I already mentioned that alexeis decision to go back to russia was taken in the pre war era, which was very different from where we are in 2024. Do you fear just one more thought on that do you fear there could be a parallel with neighbouring belarus, where we saw svetla na tikhanovskaya, you know, she says win an election but of course, president lukashenko then engineered his own victory. Tikhanovskaya was forced to leave the country, and i think its fair to say that her leverage inside belarus is not the same outside the country. Is it possible for your movement to gain the traction it needs inside russia when you no longer have an inspirational, charismatic figure who is inside the country . The challenges are very clear, and its very complicated to stay up to date with the political agenda, with the domestic policies working from abroad. We did it for three years with alexei imprisoned, and the organisation operating from abroad. The challenges are very clear for us. I dont like the comparison to svetla na tikhanovskaya. For instance, svetlana won the election, and navalny, or Yulia Navalnaya never had the chance to participate in the president ial election in russia. Tikhanovskayas credibility comes from this election that she won in 2020. Yulias credibility is not granted. It will depend on her next steps and her next political actions. But now its derived from the movement of navalny� s supporters inside russia. Even now, three years after navalny was imprisoned and we started to operate from abroad, 85 of the subscribers and followers on our social media are inside the country. And we actually were working hard not to become an emigre or, like, a diaspora organisation. Its always very important for us to stay in touch with our supporters inside the country, and we developed, like, technical tools to do it, and, like, political tools. We endorse candidates in local elections, we organise protests. But, yeah, ok, i know. But if you dont want to be an emigre organisation, its a simple Yes No Question will Yulia Navalnaya return to russia . When putin will be defeated, of course she will. Lets just talk about strategy. Thats clear on that front, but lets talk about forward looking strategy for your organisation. Here are the words of kira yarmysh, who you work with, a long time navalny activist. She said after february 16th, after the death of navalny, she said, we are going to need to undergo changes. We are all perfectly aware of this. Now, one change that some are discussing in the anti putin opposition outside of russia is a need for much more joint enterprise, for a coalition of forces, perhaps including, for example, mikhail khodorkovsky� s 0pen russia movement. Theres maxim katz, who has a vast anti putin following on social media. Hes based in israel. Are you now looking to act jointly with these other anti putin forces . We are acting jointly, like every single Political Force in the russian opposition. Well, with the greatest of respect, youre not. Heres a direct quote from mr navalny not so long ago when asked about coalitions, he said, im going to be direct to hell with your coalition. Exactly exactly. We are strictly opposed to any, like, formal coalition to a round table debate itself. And we always were very strong proponents of the idea of ad hoc coalition. We dont need to have a lengthy discussion with a politburo to decide that these political actions that we are doing now this noon against Putin Campaign is a good idea. And every single Political Force in the russian opposition not only the liberals, also the left and so on are supportive of it. We didnt need to build, like, a formal organisation. No, there are very different political organisations, each talking to their audiences through their media channels, and then making the message of the Opposition Forces much stronger. While this hypothetic coalition, which would require a lot of resources, would actually be very limited in its abilities to reach out, we dont need an opposition politburo, an opposition united russia. We already have putins united russia. All right, lets just end with a thought about where you are right now, which is washington, dc. How disappointed are you with what is happening in washington, in terms of blocked new military and Financial Assistance for ukraine ukraine, of course, at war with putins russia and also, joe biden who, in 2021, promised, quote, devastating consequences for russia if navalny Were To Die In Prison . Frankly, in the last three weeks, we havent seen those devastating consequences. Do you feel, in washington, dc, that there is a failure . A failure really to address Vladimir Putin and the threa