He said risen for the afternoon session. Before we go to that lets talk to our correspondent. Welcome to you. Another government have been a recurring theme is that this inquiry and this goes back to him changing a Welsh Parliament issued mobile phone in march 2022. Mil changing a Welsh Parliament issued mobile phone in march 2022. All was fine until that mobile phone in march 2022. All was fine until that phone mobile phone in march 2022. All was fine until that phone had mobile phone in march 2022. All was fine until that phone had a mobile phone in march 2022. All was fine until that phone had a security i fine until that phone had a Security Rebuild and then the whatsapp messages were wiped. We try to retrieve them with the help of the senate It Department and whatsapp itself but they couldnt. He thought they had been backed up but they were not. He says this is a matter of real embarrassment and some regret that the inquiry doesnt have these messages. We also talked about waless preparation not having been as good as it could have been and that was difficult for some of the families to listen to. Some frustration around the Welsh Governments relationship of the uk government. He described Cobra Meeting chaired by mrjohnson in which he said mrjohnson were scatty, incoherent and ramblings. He said there are better run when dominic raab or matt hancock was in charge. You will face questions on care home discharge policy, one of the most controversial aspects of the most controversial aspects of the pandemic youre in wales and see all this through the prism of the welsh labour leadership campaign. He is in the running, voting closes on thursday and if there are they were members who have not made up their mind that there is a possibility that the perception of a good or a bad performance could have a bearing on that leadership race. And what are that wales was not as prepared as it should have been. Other parts of the united kingdom, the preparation very however, if we had had that advice, for example, the middle of april, that actually really should do this, and our advice is definitely do it. At that staff so some people suggested this was not having access to tears and thatis was not having access to tears and that is why we didnt do it and actually the point im making is, well, actually, we are being advised to do that anyway. And we do not have test for the first point was, the advice but if we had had the advice and the test then we saying this is what we should do and earlier in mid april then we she divvied at the time it was a question of Resource Management . It was a question of Resource Management . Was a question of Resource Manauement . ,. ,. ,. ,. , management . It was a question of our Understanding Management . It was a question of our understanding of management . It was a question of our understanding of the management . It was a question of our understanding of the position. Management . It was a question of our understanding of the position. Is understanding of the position. Is that in the technical paper. That is why the Policy Position did not move but if the Policy Position had been at that point, you should do evertons received a body of scientific material by that stage built up from a variety of sources, officials at sage had been asked by Professor Ferguson what an epidemic with 4000 deaths a day looks like and there it was much more data by that weekend on the likely impact on the nhs. That change of direction was communicated to you on a Cobra Meeting on the 16th Of March. I suppose just clearing this one thing up, from those attendance records it doesnt confirm your attendance but in your Witness Statement you confirm you attended, is that right . Yes. Iii confirm you attended, is that right . Yes. U, confirm you attended, is that right . Yes. U,. ,. , confirm you attended, is that right . Yes. U,. ,. , ~. , confirm you attended, is that right . Yes. ,. , yes. If we can look at page four, first paragraph. Yes. If we can look at page four, first paragraph, patrick yes. If we can look at page four, first paragraph, Patrick Vallance| first paragraph, Patrick Vallance and chris whitty told the meeting that the uk was on the cusp of the fast upward swing of infections. They had been 35 confirmed deaths in the uk including the first covid i9 related deaths recorded in wales that day. And then if we have a look at paragraph two, the proposed Intervention Measures outlined there were agreed upon at this Cobra Meeting. Those Intervention Measures would obviously have significant economic and also social impact. When they were introduced in wales. Were you satisfied that there had been proper consideration by the Welsh Government of implementing these proposed Intervention Measures . I suppose what i have in mind specifically is, as i spoke about earlier, the demographic characteristics of the welsh population. So the impact on the elderly, the impact on the vulnerable . Elderly, the impact on the vulnerable . ,. , vulnerable . So, yes, there had been a roer vulnerable . So, yes, there had been a proper consideration vulnerable . So, yes, there had been a proper consideration of vulnerable . So, yes, there had been a proper consideration of the vulnerable . So, yes, there had been a proper consideration of the fact a proper consideration of the fact that if a proper consideration of the fact that if the a proper consideration of the fact that if the virus is growing significantly as it is and if we know significantly as it is and if we know that our population is vulnerable, then needing to act, and as we vulnerable, then needing to act, and as we went vulnerable, then needing to act, and as we went through before the break, understanding the evidence picture on the understanding the evidence picture on the 12th and 13th going into cobra on the 12th and 13th going into cobra on on the 12th and 13th going into cobra on the 16th, the evidence picture cobra on the 16th, the evidence picture was hard during those days on the picture was hard during those days on the need to do more. So yes, i was clear on the need to do more. So yes, i was clear that we would need to do that to was clear that we would need to do that to prevent really direct harm. But in that to prevent really direct harm. But in understanding the full suite of what but in understanding the full suite of what that means for all the indirect of what that means for all the indirect harms, lives and livelihoods and everything around those, livelihoods and everything around those, then i think it would be dishonest to try to claim that everything around that had been fully worked through because the picture fully worked through because the picture is fully worked through because the picture is moving really fast and by then the picture is moving really fast and by then the treasury havent got through then the treasury havent got through to doing, for example, understanding what fellow is going to look understanding what fellow is going to look like and how it is going to work to look like and how it is going to work i to look like and how it is going to work. I dont want to give your misleading answer. Excess dummett yes, i misleading answer. Excess dummett yes, i understood very clearly, covid yes, i understood very clearly, covid is yes, i understood very clearly, covid is growing, its an even bigger covid is growing, its an even bigger problem than it was the other side of bigger problem than it was the other side of the bigger problem than it was the other side of the weekend and we need to do this side of the weekend and we need to do this and side of the weekend and we need to do this and we are signed up to taking do this and we are signed up to taking measures do it and that gives us the taking measures do it and that gives us the best taking measures do it and that gives us the best prospect of protecting people us the best prospect of protecting people here and indeed across the rest of people here and indeed across the rest of the people here and indeed across the rest of the uk. If people here and indeed across the rest of the uk. Rest of the uk. If you can look at another set rest of the uk. If you can look at another set of rest of the uk. If you can look at another set of minutes, rest of the uk. If you can look at | another set of minutes, covid19 another set of minutes, covid 19 core group of minutes, covid 19 core Group Minutes from a meeting on the 18th Of March, a few days later, looking at paragraph one, the virus was circling sing in the community, 136 cases in wales and two recorded fatalities. The uk was four weeks into the curve is expected to be another 11 weeks before the extent of the virus peaked. Just pausing there, you were aware at this stage of the need to act urgently to stop the nhs in wales being overwhelmed, correct . ~ , the nhs in wales being overwhelmed, correct . Turn the nhs in wales being overwhelmed, correct . Turn over the nhs in wales being overwhelmed, correct . Turn over the correct . Absolutely. Turn over the. Ae. Correct . Absolutely. Turn over the a~e onto correct . Absolutely. Turn over the page onto page correct . Absolutely. Turn over the page onto page two. Correct . Absolutely. Turn over the page onto page two, have correct . Absolutely. Turn over the page onto page two, have a correct . Absolutely. Turn over the page onto page two, have a look l correct . Absolutely. Turn over the | page onto page two, have a look at some paragraphs theyre starting at paragraph 11 dealing with schools. There is a discussion about the policy on School Closures and it is noted here that sage was in the process of updating its advice for cobra, the 18th Of March. Have a look at paragraph 13, please. There is recognition here that once schools were closed, unlikely they would reopen until the autumn term so the impact on exams would need to be considered. We know the decision was taken to close schools in wales early for easter this day, so on the 18th Of March, that was announced by kirsty williams, the then education minister. Ms williams says in her Witness Statement that on the 16th Of March there was another Cobra Meeting in which cobra maintained its previous position that schools should not be closed immediately and were crucial for maintaining front line workforce. She then goes on in her Witness Statement to say even at 4pm on the 17th of march, so the day before this meeting we are looking at, the Welsh Government was still working on the assumption that the best thing to do would be to keep schools open. Are you able to help us understand how the position changed so rapidly since cobra on the 16th Of March still looking at the 16th Of March still looking at the Position Keeping Schools open the Position Keeping Schools open the Welsh GovernmentWorking Assumption the day before this meeting, the best thing to do would be to keep schools open and then we have the announcement made on the 18th Of March that in fact schools are going to close early . So we had the understanding that schools are part of transmission because people are moving around and mixing. There are a Primary School or the fact that adults are doing other things will often go and see other things will often go and see other people after that as well. There is the unknown role of older adults and older children in particular and their possible role in transmission. So all these things are known. What we do know is, and it is noted in the minutes, that of schools close, it will be difficult to reopen them. Youve got to rebuild confidence, possibly think about new ways of teaching and learning. And we wanted to keep schools open for things that are highlighted later on. Both the impact on childrens learning and outcomes but also, as i pointed out, regularly, in my statement, that term is not a safe place for every aduu term is not a safe place for every adult and home is not a safe place for every child. Having your children in school means there is greater visibility of what is happening so there is a real safeguarding issue about having schools open. What happened was you had some schools closing because they had staff who are isolated in accordance with our advice, having symptoms and isolating, so some schools could not stay open because they did not have the staff to staff them and in other schools there was a growing group of parents who were anxious and did have a lot of fear for the children which is a rational thing for parents to consider. Is my child better off at home or better off than school . So all of those things were happening and we found that local authorities, from the conversations they were with them, i say we, in the government sense, to then reach an agreed position at w 0j then reach an agreed position at w Oj Leadership level, i think every now and again the reader is described as the chair, it is the leader Andrew Morgan and those conversations with the, agreeing to keep schools open and then individual schools and local authorities break from the pack and what we were finding was a disorder the closing of schools and some authorities were acting. So, again, this is the pace of events from the 16th to the 18th. It was not tenable to schools open so to bring about an orderly conclusion, the decision was made that it was the right decision at the time and i still, looking back, think, taking the decision then was the right thing to do in those circumstances. But it is one of my regret that we could not keep schools open for longer. Some of Thatis Schools open for longer. Some of that is what we knew at the time and a lot of it is what we have subsequently aberrant, peoples prospects for the future. You attended a prospects for the future. You attended a cobra prospects for the future. Gm. Attended a Cobra Meeting on the 20th of march. We do not need the minutes brought up. There was discussion at that meeting, additional social distancing measures such as closing restaurants, bars, theatres, cinemas, nonessential retail. You say in your Witness Statements, paragraph 221, that you agreed with these measures and wanted to see them introduced that night. I suppose the question is this given that there had been substantial reductions by voluntary means, at this stage, and measures had already been introduced, did you consider waiting and allowing more time to see if there is measures that had been introduced on the 16th Of March were to take effect and those would bring the r rate below one. Ida. I bring the r rate below one. No, i think the evidence bring the r rate below one. No, i think the evidence was bring the r rate below one. No, i think the evidence was clear bring the r rate below one. No, i think the evidence was clear in i bring the r rate below one. No, i think the evidence was clear in the modelling that came from sage and the evidence of, the advice of our Chief Medical Officer had given and indeed chris whitty in opening the Cobra Meeting when he was asked to speak was pretty clear that all things that we had done were not going to stop the growth of covid at that point and more significant measures were needed. There was a discussion about that, then when there is an agreement that Something Else had to be done there was a discussion and it was set out in two to one, i was clear that we needed to one, i was clear that we needed to act as soon as possible. That to one, i was clear that we needed to act as soon as possible. To act as soon as possible. That is what the overall to act as soon as possible. That is what the overall conclusion to act as soon as possible. That is what the overall conclusion was. I what the overall conclusion was. Now, we know that that evening, the 20th of march, the First Minister announced that the Welsh Government would use Public Health powers to close restaurants, pubs, bars and otherfacilities. Day close restaurants, pubs, bars and other facilities. Day after saturday zist other facilities. Day after Saturday 21st Of March i think the Welsh Government was told there would be a Cobra Meeting but that did not in fact go ahead. 22nd Of March Doctor Arthur Deng confirmed other covid related deaths is and that took the total number to 12. I think im right im saying this is sunday 22nd of march, that afternoon you had a meeting with the First Minister and we can see an e mail sending out a number of Action Points following that discussion. So we can see at the bottom that, yes, as discussed with the