Office that because the culture of the post office was that because the culture of the post office was all about the post office brand office was all about the post office brand and office was all about the post office brand and damn the Sub Postmasters . No. Brand and damn the Sub Postmasters . No what brand and damn the Sub Postmasters . No. What other explanation is that when no. What other explanation is that when we no. What other explanation is that when we see a total absence of care about when we see a total absence of care about people with families you should about people with families you should be trying to protect, not prosecute . Should be trying to protect, not rosecute . , � , ,. , prosecute . Thats why we brought in second side prosecute . Thats why we brought in second side and prosecute . Thats why we brought in second side and wanted prosecute . Thats why we brought in second side and wanted to second side and wanted to investigate the cases, because at that point it was evident there were a number of people claiming the Horizon System was causing their losses. � ,. , Horizon System was causing their losses. � ,. ,. ,. , losses. Lets go back to the helpline losses. Lets go back to the helpline. Did losses. Lets go back to the helpline. Did the losses. Lets go back to the helpline. Did the message. Losses. Lets go back to the helpline. Did the message change once these rumblings were getting touder once these rumblings were getting louder and louder and the crisis was getting louder and louder and the crisis was getting ever more obvious and ever more getting ever more obvious and ever more serious . Did the line from a hetbtine more serious . Did the line from a helpline change, did you make sure that the helpline change, did you make sure that the helpline still wasnt saying that the helpline still wasnt saying to these poor people in the post Office Branches theyve got to pay up post Office Branches theyve got to pay up regardless . Did anybody get that any pay up regardless . Did anybody get that any attention . I pay up regardless . Did anybody get that any attention . That any attention . I did, yes, as art of that any attention . I did, yes, as part of the that any attention . I did, yes, as part of the programme. That any attention . I did, yes, as part of the programme. I that any attention . I did, yes, as| part of the programme. I brought that any attention . I did, yes, as i part of the programme. I brought in those changes. As part of the interim report, iset those changes. As part of the interim report, i set up a Support Programme about making improvements to a range of processes and working with Sub Postmasters. That to a range of processes and working with subpostmasters. To a range of processes and working with subpostmasters. That must mean ou did with subpostmasters. That must mean you did checking. With subpostmasters. That must mean you did checking, you with subpostmasters. That must mean you did checking, you must with subpostmasters. That must mean you did checking, you must have with subpostmasters. That must mean you did checking, you must have gone l you did checking, you must have gone to them you did checking, you must have gone to them and you did checking, you must have gone to them and said lets have a look at what to them and said lets have a look at what you to them and said lets have a look at what you are doing. Did you do that . At what you are doing. Did you do that . ~. ,. ,. , 4 at what you are doing. Did you do that . ,. ,. ,. , at what you are doing. Did you do that . ~. ,. ,. , at what you are doing. Did you do that . ~. ,. ,. , that . What i looked at was providing the su ort that . What i looked at was providing the sopport in that . What i looked at was providing the support in nbs that . What i looked at was providing the support in nbs sea, that . What i looked at was providing the support in nbs sea, meaning the support in nbs sea, meaning there was more tier to support to deal with the escalations that you talk to me, so that we had better support. Around that time, are you telling us you saw there were problems with in the system, people being told to pay up regardless and she made a correction . It was a broader improvements can she made a correction . It was a broader improvements she made a correction . It was a broader improvements can you cut the cororate broader improvements can you cut the corporate speech. Broader improvements can you cut the corporate speech. Did broader improvements can you cut the corporate speech. Did you broader improvements can you cut the corporate speech. Did you improve corporate speech. Did you improve the problem . Corporate speech. Did you improve the problem . You corporate speech. Did you improve| the problem . You must the problem . Yes, i did. You must have recognise the problem . Yes, i did. You must have recognise there the problem . Yes, i did. You must have recognise there was the problem . Yes, i did. You must have recognise there was a have recognise there was a programme. Is have recognise there was a programme have recognise there was a programme. Is that correct . I recognise programme. Is that correct . I recognise postmasters programme. Is that correct . I| recognise postmasters werent getting, in some cases, the level of support that they should have had in relation to investigating their discrepancies, and thats what i set to correct through the brown Support Programme, and later when i took on responsibility, i continued with it. Ok. What about a message being sent out to ok. What about a message being sent out to the ok. What about a message being sent out to the postmasters and mistresses . Was there a message sent out at mistresses . Was there a message sent out at that mistresses . Was there a message sent out at that time to say, look, we are beginning to think there may be are beginning to think there may be a problem. Are beginning to think there may be a problem, that there could be a difficulty a problem, that there could be a difficulty with shortfalls, and you need difficulty with shortfalls, and you need to difficulty with shortfalls, and you need to be on notice . Did anybody provide need to be on notice . Did anybody provide them with a warning to say there provide them with a warning to say there is provide them with a warning to say there is an provide them with a warning to say there is an issue . No. Jacqueline there is an issue . No. Jacqueline falcon there is an issue . Firm Jacqueline Falcon worked as a Counter Clerk for the post falcon worked as a Counter Clerk for the post Office Branch in northumberland between 2000 and 2015. She got blamed by her employer for a shortfall. This so so embedded in the system that Sub Postmasters and mistresses were btaming Sub Postmasters and mistresses were blaming other people for losses. Mrs falk blaming other people for losses. Mrs fatk and blaming other people for losses. Mrs falk and was arrested and charged with fraud falk and was arrested and charged with fraud. She was handed a three month prison sentence, suspended for three months. Shunned by the suspended for three months. Shunned by the Tocat Suspended for three months. Shunned by the local community, barely able to leave by the local community, barely able to leave her house, it affected her pregnancy to leave her house, it affected her pregnancy. She was put on antidepressants during that time, and to antidepressants during that time, and to this day she still does not io and to this day she still does not go into and to this day she still does not go into the and to this day she still does not go into the post Office Branch. That was happening to her in 2014, and in february was happening to her in 2014, and in February 2015 that was when she was arrested February 2015 that was when she was arrested. Why didnt the post office send out arrested. Why didnt the post office send out a arrested. Why didnt the post office send out a message to make sure that people send out a message to make sure that people were send out a message to make sure that people were not being unnecessarily btamed people were not being unnecessarily blamed for what might be, what could be a problem within the system . No proof be a problem within the system . No proof of be a problem within the system . No proof of it be a problem within the system . No proof of it at that point of mind, but what proof of it at that point of mind, but what could be a problem. Why wasnt it sent but what could be a problem. Tarry wasnt it sent out . But what could be a problem. ltdfg wasnt it sent out . The but what could be a problem. ltdfg wasnt it sent out . The message but what could be a problem. ltdfy wasnt it sent out . The message we always gave then was if you have an issue, please ring and we will help with getting to the bottom of it. Thats what i put in place as part of the Branch Support programme, and in support services. Earlier than that, that level of assistance wasnt available. In that, that level of assistance wasnt available. That, that level of assistance wasnt available. , wasnt available. In the high court, and regarding wasnt available. In the high court, and regarding the wasnt available. In the high court, and regarding the high wasnt available. In the high court, and regarding the high court wasnt available. In the high court, | and regarding the high court action, mr bates and regarding the high court action, mr bates and others have stated the post Office Mr Bates and others have stated the post office was trying to Outspend Ctearty post office was trying to outspend clearly and outdistance the claimants. Was that the post Office Strategy . Claimants. Was that the post office strate . , claimants. Was that the post office strate . , claimants. Was that the post office strate . , claimants. Was that the post office strate. . ,. , ,. , strategy . That was my understanding of it. Three leading strategy . That was my understanding of it. Three leading Counsel Strategy . That was my understanding of it. Three leading counsel were of it. Three leading counsel were instructed. Of it. Three leading counsel were instructed, why of it. Three leading counsel were instructed, why so of it. Three leading counsel were instructed, why so many . Of it. Three leading counsel were instructed, why so many . Sorry, j instructed, why so many . Sorry, threem instructed, why so many . Sorry, three. Three people at the time. | three. Three people at the time. I was three. Three people at the time. Was aware of three. Three people at the time. I was aware of two. Mr three. Three people at the time. I was aware of two. Mrjustice three. Three people at the time. I was aware of two. Mrjustice fraserj was aware of two. Mrjustice fraser said this, paragraph was aware of two. Mrjustice fraser said this, paragraph 58, was aware of two. Mrjustice fraser said this, paragraph 58, of was aware of two. Mrjustice fraser said this, paragraph 58, of his said this, paragraph 58, of his judgments in relation to the horizon judgment. Judgments in relation to the horizon judgment, overthe numerous hearings and two judgment, overthe numerous hearings and two trials, i have conducted, i gained and two trials, i have conducted, i gained these distinction the post office gained these distinction the post office is gained these distinction the post office is less committed to speedy Resolution Office is less committed to speedy resolution of the entire group action resolution of the entire group action than the complaints. Was that action than the complaints. Was that a deliberate strategy being employed by the a deliberate strategy being employed by the post office to try and outspend the claimant . Not by the post office to try and outspend the claimant . Not that i was aware of outspend the claimant . Not that i was aware of. Mr outspend the claimant . Not that i was aware of. Mrjustice outspend the claimant . Not that i was aware of. Mrjustice fraser i outspend the claimant . Not that i i was aware of. Mrjustice fraser said from his considerable was aware of. Mrjustice fraser said from his considerable experience, l was aware of. Mrjustice fraser said| from his considerable experience, in relation from his considerable experience, in relation to from his considerable experience, in relation to serious and difficult high relation to serious and difficult high court actions, even as against other high court actions, even as against other cases high court actions, even as against other cases of a similar type, the level other cases of a similar type, the level and other cases of a similar type, the level and rate of expenditure in the litigation level and rate of expenditure in the litigation was very high. That was a Deliberate Litigation was very high. That was a deliberate poll strategy, wasnt it . Ididnt deliberate poll strategy, wasnt it . I didnt think so at the time. One last document. Can we go to the bottom half of page two, paragraph four, please. We are tooking two, paragraph four, please. We are tooking at two, paragraph four, please. We are looking at paragraph four. This was a soticitors looking at paragraph four. This was a solicitors documents requesting instructions on the strategy to be taken instructions on the strategy to be taken. Lets look at this before i finish taken. Lets look at this before i finish four taken. Lets look at this before i finish. Four. The better solution is to try finish. Four. The better solution is to try to finish. Four. The better solution is to try to focus the claimant into a collective to try to focus the claimant into a collective position where they were either collective position where they were either abandoned the claims or seek a settlement. It should be remembered the claims that are financially supported, whose fees are partially conditional on winning, are partially conditional on winning, Third Party Funder and insurers. Winning, Third Party Funder and insurers, without support these proceedings would not have been possible proceedings would not have been possible. All three entities will have possible. All three entities will have the possible. All three entities will have the power to pull their support if the have the power to pull their support if the merits of the case drop below a certain if the merits of the case drop below a certain level. Our Targets Audience a certain level. Our Targets Audience is therefore the funder and insurers audience is therefore the funder and insurers who will adopt a logical assessment of whether they will get assessment of whether they will get a bayout assessment of whether they will get a payout rather than the claimants, who may a payout rather than the claimants, who may wish to fight on principle regardless of merits. This is bond dicidnson regardless of merits. This is Bond Dickinson solicitors asking for instructions to agree with a Strategy Instructions to agree with a strategy to drive the complainant away strategy to drive the complainant away from the court because they would away from the court because they would not away from the court because they would not be supported by the insurers would not be supported by the insurers or the Third Party Funder is. Insurers or the Third Party Funder is that insurers or the Third Party Funder is that was insurers or the Third Party Funder is. That was a strategy mr fraser came is. That was a strategy mr fraser came to is. That was a strategy mr fraser came to a is. That was a strategy mr fraser came to a conclusion that he could see in came to a conclusion that he could see in operation. Couldnt he, mrs van den see in operation. Couldnt he, mrs Van Den Bogerd . That was the poll strategy. Van den bogerd . That was the poll strategy, wasnt it . That Van Den Bogerd . That was the poll strategy, wasnt it . Van den bogerd . That was the poll strategy, wasnt it . That wasnt my understanding strategy, wasnt it . That wasnt my understanding when strategy, wasnt it . That wasnt my understanding when we strategy, wasnt it . That wasnt my understanding when we started strategy, wasnt it . That wasnt my understanding when we started in l strategy, wasnt it . That wasnt my i understanding when we started in the litigation. But clearly that is what was being proposed as we got into it. ,. ,. It. You said in your evidence yesterday it. You said in your evidence yesterday you it. You said in your evidence yesterday you are it. You said in your evidence yesterday you are always. It. You said in your evidence i yesterday you are always aware of the public yesterday you are always aware of the public purse as being something in play. The public purse as being something in play. In the public purse as being something in play, in relation to the post office. In play, in relation to the post office, mrs Van Den Bogerd. It is hardly office, mrs Van Den Bogerd. It is hardly the office, mrs Van Den Bogerd. It is hardly the action of a company worried hardly the action of a company worried about the public purse, Sub Postmasters money being put into the post Sub Postmasters money being put into the post office by hard work. It is hardly the post office by hard work. It is hardly expressing any concern about those hardly expressing any concern about those worries, about the public purse. Those worries, about the public burse. T