Particular text says. Does she . That is what this i particular text says. Whether does she . That is what this particular text says. Whether moya still feels the same, i dont know, you would have to ask her. Flan still feels the same, i dont know, you would have to ask her. You would have to ask her. Can i turn to than you would have to ask her. Can i turn to than i you would have to ask her. Can i turn to than i was you would have to ask her. Can i turn to than i was a you would have to ask her. Can i turn to than i was a second you would have to ask her. Can i turn to than i was a second general topic turn to than i was a Second General Topic Cah Turn to than i was a second general topic. Can we look at pages two and three topic. Can we look at pages two and three of topic. Can we look at pages two and three of your Witness Statement, please paragraph five, which is at the bottom paragraph five, which is at the bottom. You say i would like to offer bottom. You say i would like to offer my bottom. You say i would like to offer my genuine and unreserved apologies. I apologise that i and those apologies. I apologise that i and those working for me fails the subpostmasters and their families. Im deeply subpostmasters and their families. Im deeply sorry they have suffered in such im deeply sorry they have suffered in such a im deeply sorry they have suffered in such a deeply distressing way. I watch in such a deeply distressing way. I watch the in such a deeply distressing way. I watch the inquirys Human Evidence and heard watch the inquirys Human Evidence and heard subpostmasters describe what they and heard subpostmasters describe what they had been through, how isolated what they had been through, how isolated they had felt and how they had been isolated they had felt and how they had been unsupported by the post office had been unsupported by the post office. They describe life changing. Iam office. They describe life changing. I am so very sorry that so much changing. I am so very sorry that so much of changing. I am so very sorry that so much of this happened whilst i was a so much of this happened whilst i was a member of the Senior Management team, and then ceo. I also offer management team, and then ceo. I also offer my apologies to alan bates also offer my apologies to alan bates and all those who worked with them to bates and all those who worked with them to secure justice for the subpostmasters. They had the right insights, subpostmasters. They had the right insights, they were right to persevere, i am insights, they were right to persevere, iam sorry insights, they were right to persevere, i am sorry that i made their persevere, i am sorry that i made their task persevere, i am sorry that i made their task harder. Some of which he said first their task harder. Some of which he said first thing this morning. Can we go said first thing this morning. Can we go forward to page 774. Paragraph 1800. You say, ive been asked paragraph 1800. You say, ive been asked to paragraph 1800. You say, ive been asked to reflect my time at the post office asked to reflect my time at the post office and asked to reflect my time at the post office and if there is anything i would office and if there is anything i would handle differently with hindsight. And then, 1801, i have had much hindsight. And then, 1801, i have had much to hindsight. And then, 1801, i have had much to consider. With the benefit had much to consider. With the benefit of had much to consider. With the benefit of hindsight, there are many things benefit of hindsight, there are many things that benefit of hindsight, there are many things that i and the post office should things that i and the post office should do differently. Im now reflecting with care on these matters reflecting with care on these matters and will expand on them when i ive matters and will expand on them when lgive my matters and will expand on them when i give my evidence to the inquiry. These i give my evidence to the inquiry. These reflections will demonstrate my deep these reflections will demonstrate my deep remorse. So our request, which my deep remorse. So our request, which was my deep remorse. So our request, which was made in august 2023, so seven which was made in august 2023, so seven months before you provided this Witness Statement, was for you to, reflect this Witness Statement, was for you to, reflect on your time at the post to, reflect on your time at the post office and set out whether there post office and set out whether there was anything you would have handled there was anything you would have handled differently with hindsight, yes . You handled differently with hindsight, yes . You explain in paragraph 1801 that there yes . You explain in paragraph 1801 that there are many things you should that there are many things you should have done differently and the post office should have done differently. And you will expand upon differently. And you will expand upon them and answer them fully when you give upon them and answer them fully when you give your evidence in may, today~ you give your evidence in may, today. Given you provided a 775 page witness today. Given you provided a 775 page Witness Statement that took seven months Witness Statement that took seven months to Witness Statement that took seven months to write, could you not have reflected months to write, could you not have reflected on months to write, could you not have reflected on what you should have done reflected on what you should have done fully reflected on what you should have done fully and differently within the Witness Statement . Yes, i could have put more into it. And im sorry if that wasnt helpful. I read so many documents and worked a long time to try and prepare this, and. And worked a long time to try and prepare this, and. And worked a long time to try and prepare this, and. Im sure thats true. Disclosures prepare this, and. Im sure thats true. Disclosures are prepare this, and. Im sure thats true. Disclosures are coming prepare this, and. Im sure thats true. Disclosures are coming out i prepare this, and. Im sure thats| true. Disclosures are coming out all ofthe true. Disclosures are coming out all of the time true. Disclosures are coming out all of the time i true. Disclosures are coming out all of the time. I would true. Disclosures are coming out all of the time. I would be true. Disclosures are coming out all of the time. I would be very true. Disclosures are coming out all of the time. I would be very happy. Of the time. I would be very happy to tell the inquiry now. I have a list of things in my head and i hope that i will be able to bring them out as we go through this statement. Equally, i would out as we go through this statement. Equally, iwould be out as we go through this statement. Equally, i would be more than happy to submit a further statement to set that out. ,. ,. , to submit a further statement to set that out. ,. I. ,. , ~ that out. Given that you took 775 aes that out. Given that you took 775 pages and that out. Given that you took 775 pages and seven that out. Given that you took 775 pages and seven months that out. Given that you took 775 pages and seven months to that out. Given that you took 775| pages and seven months to write this, pages and seven months to write this, why pages and seven months to write this, why didnt you do so then . Given this, why didnt you do so then . Given that this, why didnt you do so then . Given that we had asked you that direct given that we had asked you that direct question. Were you adopting a wait and direct question. Were you adopting a wait and see approach . Lets see what wait and see approach . Lets see what comes wait and see approach . Lets see what comes out in evidence, see what i what comes out in evidence, see what i have what comes out in evidence, see what i have got what comes out in evidence, see what i have got to what comes out in evidence, see what i have got to admit, and then i will admit i have got to admit, and then i will admit that . I have got to admit, and then i will admit that . No, not at all. That is not the way admit that . No, not at all. That is not the way i admit that . No, not at all. That is not the way i work. Admit that . No, not at all. That is not the way i work. So admit that . No, not at all. That is not the way i work. So why admit that . No, not at all. That is not the way i work. So why did admit that . No, not at all. That is not the way i work. So why did you | not the way i work. So why did you not the way i work. So why did you not assist us not the way i work. So why did you not assist us by not the way i work. So why did you not assist us by setting not the way i work. So why did you not assist us by setting out not the way i work. So why did you not assist us by setting out in not the way i work. So why did you not assist us by setting out in this| not assist us by setting out in this document not assist us by setting out in this document what your reflections were . It document what your reflections were . It was document what your reflections were . It was simply a matter of time. The inquiry asked me i think over 600 questions, two or 300 with Sub Questions in each. I went through probably hundreds of thousands of documents. And my memory was not very good at the beginning of this process. It has improved as i have gone through the documentation. That was important. By documentation. That was important. By the time i got to december last year with the draft went in, i had simply run out of time to answer these questions properly. They are very serious questions. In the list of the inquiry sent to me. I would be happy to write them up in much more detail or i would be happy to share with you now or as we go through those reflections. It was absolutely not a wait and see. Flan i absolutely not a wait and see. Can i turn to the absolutely not a wait and see. Can i turn to the third absolutely not a wait and see. Can i turn to the third topic, absolutely not a wait and see. Can i turn to the third topic, please . Which turn to the third topic, please . Which is turn to the third topic, please . Which is what you think went wrong. Can we which is what you think went wrong. Can we go which is what you think went wrong. Can we go back to paragraph four of your Witness Statement, please, which your Witness Statement, please, which i your Witness Statement, please, which i think is on page two. And if we scroll which i think is on page two. And if we scroll down, please, you say you have we scroll down, please, you say you have treen we scroll down, please, you say you have been shown and read thousands of documents from the Inquiry Pass Disclosure of documents from the Inquiry Pass Disclosure when you were writing this Witness Statement, yes . Yes. And ou this Witness Statement, yes . Yes. And you have this Witness Statement, yes . Yes. And you have done this Witness Statement, yes . Yes. And you have done your this Witness Statement, yes . Yes and you have done your best to refer to all and you have done your best to refer to all relevant documents and answer all questions fully. You are sure that you all questions fully. You are sure that you may have overlooked some inadvertently. Yes. Can we go forwards inadvertently. Yes. Can we go forwards to page 774. And paragraph 1802. Thank you. In the second and paragraph 1802. Thank you. In the second line, you say, im genuinely the second line, you say, im genuinely sorry. I finished the statement by repeating my apologies to the statement by repeating my apologies to the subpostmasters and their families, to the subpostmasters and their families, and to all who have suffered families, and to all who have suffered so much from this terrible miscarriage ofjustice. And then this, miscarriage ofjustice. And then this, their miscarriage ofjustice. And then this, their lives were torn apart try this, their lives were torn apart by being this, their lives were torn apart by being wrongly accused and wrongly prosecuted as a result of the horizon prosecuted as a result of the Horizon System. Ijust want to focus Horizon System. Ijust want to focus on Horizon System. Ijust want to focus on the words as a result of the Horizon Focus on the words as a result of the Horizon System. Even after all the Horizon System. Even after all the inquiry the Horizon System. Even after all the inquiry has revealed and after the inquiry has revealed and after the thousands of documents you have read, the thousands of documents you have read. Do the thousands of documents you have read. Do you the thousands of documents you have read, do you continue to think that the issue read, do you continue to think that the issue was with the Computer System, the issue was with the Computer System, the Horizon System, as opposed system, the Horizon System, as opposed to the conduct, competence and ethics opposed to the conduct, competence and ethics of those within the post office . And ethics of those within the post office . , and ethics of those within the post office . , , . And ethics of those within the post office . , ,. And ethics of those within the post office . ,. ,. ,. , ~ office . No, not at all. And apologies office . No, not at all. And apologies that office . No, not at all. And apologies that that office . No, not at all. And apologies that that is office . No, not at all. And apologies that that is not l office . No, not at all. And apologies that that is not clear. There were numbers of debates about what the Horizon System meant. What i meant to say or what i should have said is as a result of all of the matters relating to horizon and all of the issues that were discussed and that the inquiry is looking at. This suggests that you think the issue this suggests that you think the issue was this suggests that you think the issue was with the system, not the people issue was with the system, not the people the issue was with the system, not the people. The people that were responsible for the conduct, the prosecutions, the people that were responsible for the conduct of investigations, and indeed there is responsible for their supervision, oversight responsible for their supervision, oversight and governance, doesnt it . , , oversight and governance, doesnt it . , , ,. , it . That was not what i intended to conve at it . That was not what i intended to convey at all it . That was not what i intended to convey at all. Is it . That was not what i intended to convey at all. Is this it . That was not what i intended to convey at all. Is this a convey at all. Is this a perpetuation, convey at all. Is this a perpetuation, but convey at all. Is this a perpetuation, but we | convey at all. Is this a i perpetuation, but we see convey at all. Is this a perpetuation, but we see in this simple perpetuation, but we see in this simple sentence here, of a culture that ran simple sentence here, of a culture that ran through the post office, of failing that ran through the post office, of failing to that ran through the post office, of failing to take responsibility for the use failing to take responsibility for the use of powers that it elected to use and the use of powers that it elected to use and indeed used Robustly Question Use and indeed used robustly Question Mark and instead blamed the it. , , , , , Question Mark and instead blamed the it. No, it is not that at all, and i completely it. No, it is not that at all, and i completely agree it. No, it is not that at all, and i completely agree with it. No, it is not that at all, and i completely agree with what it. No, it is not that at all, and i completely agree with what is i completely agree with what is contained in your question. The tragedy that we are dealing with todayis tragedy that we are dealing with today is the result of something much, much broader than an it system. Yes, that underpins some of it, but the issues are much, much broader. ,. ,. , broader. The words that you finish the statement broader. The words that you finish the statement with broader. The words that you finish the statement with here, broader. The words that you finish the statement with here, this broader. The words that you finish the statement with here, this last| the statement with here, this last two sentences, are exactly the same words two sentences, are exactly the same words that two sentences, are exactly the same words that you used, a cut and paste. Words that you used, a cut and paste, when you were announcing that you are paste, when you were announcing that you are returning your cbe to the king. You are returning your cbe to the king, correct . I you are returning your cbe to the king. Correct . You are returning your cbe to the king, correct . I do not recall that, but if ou king, correct . I do not recall that, but if you say king, correct . I do not recall that, but if you say so. King, correct . I do not recall that, but if you say so, yes. King, correct . I do not recall that, but if you say so, yes. Yes, king, correct . I do not recall that, but if you say so, yes. Yes, they l but if you say so, yes. Yes, they are a cut but if you say so, yes. Yes, they are a cut and but if you say so, yes. Yes, they are a cut and paste, but if you say so, yes. Yes, they are a cut and paste, i but if you say so, yes. Yes, they are a cut and paste, i looked but if you say so, yes. Yes, they i are a cut and paste, i looked online to see are a cut and paste, i looked online to see the are a cut and paste, i looked online to see the words are used when apologising and explaining the Return Apologising and explaining the return of the cbe. Is that how