Head in the sand reply from the team you have placed too much trust in. Let me be clear, once the Police Investigation is completed, its highly likely that members of your staff will be sent to prison, a custodial sentence is mandatory for this offence. Your role in this will not escape attention. Call her and apologise and ensure suffering is ended as soon as possible. I wonder what kind of god you worship. What happened as a result of this being sent to you . I happened as a result of this being sent to you . Sent to you . I believe this is the one i referred sent to you . I believe this is the one i referred to sent to you . I believe this is the one i referred to earlier sent to you . I believe this is the one i referred to earlier where i | one i referred to earlier where i ask, one i referred to earlier where i ask, i one i referred to earlier where i ask, i forwarded one i referred to earlier where i ask, iforwarded it one i referred to earlier where i ask, i forwarded it to tom and asked him to ask, i forwarded it to tom and asked him to suspend any preconceptions he may have him to suspend any preconceptions he may have as him to suspend any preconceptions he may have as a result of some of the work may have as a result of some of the work that may have as a result of some of the work that had been done, meaning although work that had been done, meaning although we have said we have not found although we have said we have not found any although we have said we have not found any issues, we should look again. Found any issues, we should look again. And found any issues, we should look again. And i found any issues, we should look again, and i cannot rememberwhat happened. Again, and i cannot rememberwhat happened, but im reasonably sure that the happened, but im reasonably sure that the case by this case had gone to the that the case by this case had gone to the ccr that the case by this case had gone to the ccr c. Can that the case by this case had gone to the ccr c to the cr c. Can we look, please, at a~e to the ccr c. Can we look, please, at page one . To the ccr c. Can we look, please, at page one . Scroll to the ccr c. Can we look, please, at page one . Scroll down. To the ccr c. Can we look, please, i at page one . Scroll down. Followup at page one . Scroll down. Follow up e mailfrom mr at page one . Scroll down. Follow up e mail from mr maccormack. At page one . Scroll down. Follow up e mailfrom mr maccormack. What i have heard today is totally unbelievable. I know you should have acquainted yourself with the consequences and should note that fujitsu said they would fix this earlier this year and i say today would be highly unlikely they would do this as they dont know what caused the error in the first place. You know because i am about to tell you, the same error has occurred in other branch in far more severe circumstances. I will be glad to help one to call and put her out of her misery. You are a Bunch Of Idiots Playing Havoc with the lives of people, you have little interest in. Did you refuse to engage with mr maccormack after this time . I in. Did you refuse to engage with mr maccormack after this time . Maccormack after this time . I dont believe so. Maccormack after this time . I dont believe so, but maccormack after this time . I dont believe so, but i maccormack after this time . I dont believe so, but i think maccormack after this time . I dont believe so, but i think by maccormack after this time . I dont believe so, but i think by this believe so, but i think by this stagem believe so, but i think by this stagem i believe so, but i think by this stage. I cannot remember. I think roderick stage. I cannot remember. I think Roderick Williams had taken on the responses Roderick Williams had taken on the responses which im very sorry about on behalf responses which im very sorry about on behalf of responses which im very sorry about on behalf of the post office. It honestly, on behalf of the post office. It honestly, i cannot remember. This may have honestly, i cannot remember. This may have been the one where angela went to may have been the one where angela went to look into the details of the bu. Went to look into the details of the bu. ~ went to look into the details of the bu i. , ~. , went to look into the details of the bu. , ~. , , went to look into the details of the bug. Taking a step back, would you acce t that bug. Taking a step back, would you accept that you bug. Taking a step back, would you accept that you routinely bug. Taking a step back, would you accept that you routinely received l accept that you routinely received respondents from Sub Postmasters and people speaking on behalf of them raising complaints or concerns regarding the operation of horizon at their branch . Regarding the operation of horizon at their branch . Did | at their branch . Yes, i would. Did ou see at their branch . Yes, i would. Did you see a at their branch . Yes, i would. Did you see a pattern at their branch . Yes, i would. Did you see a pattern between at their branch . Yes, i would. Did you see a pattern between them . At their branch . Yes, i would. Did l you see a pattern between them . I saw the theme of horizon coming up, yes. Saw the theme of horizon coming up, es. ~. , saw the theme of horizon coming up, es. ,. ,. , saw the theme of horizon coming up, yes. Was anything done by you to oin the yes. Was anything done by you to join the dots yes. Was anything done by you to join the dots between yes. Was anything done by you to join the dots between them . Yes. Was anything done by you to join the dots between them . The| join the dots between them . The dots, i believed, were beingjoined through dots, i believed, were beingjoined through the investigation work in the Complaints Remediation Scheme and in the Complaints Remediation Scheme and in every case, i believed we had looked and in every case, i believed we had looked at and in every case, i believed we had looked at it and in every case, i believed we had looked at it in some detail. And i regret looked at it in some detail. And i regret today that clearly neither of those regret today that clearly neither of those exposed the issues we came to find out those exposed the issues we came to find out about through the common, horizon find out about through the common, horizon issuesjudgment. | find out about through the common, horizon issuesjudgment. I will find out about through the common, horizon issuesjudgment. Horizon issues udgment. I will turn to my next horizon issuesjudgment. I will turn to my next topic. Horizon issuesjudgment. I will turn to my next topic, your horizon issuesjudgment. I will turn to my next topic, your knowledge l horizon issuesjudgment. I will turn| to my next topic, your knowledge of the facility for Remote Access. You described, there is no need to turn them up in your Witness Statement, it is paragraph 1000 262 1307, the state of your knowledge across time from 2007 onwards as to Remote Access. However defined. You referred to documents provided to you by the inquiry which showed that the post office and new that form of Remote Access was possible from october 2008. Remote access was possible from 0ctober2008. I Remote Access was possible from october 2008. I want to explore some of that material so far as it came to your attention. Can we start, please, with the Ernst Young Audit and the issue of 2011. Can we look at w itn 0074 0126 . If we look at the foot of the page, please. There is an e mailfrom Donald Brydon in september 2011. Can you remind inquiry the function that he performed at that time . Shat you remind inquiry the function that he performed at that time . He performed at that time . At this time, he he performed at that time . At this time. He was he performed at that time . At this time, he was group he performed at that time . At this time, he was Group Chairman he performed at that time . At this time, he was Group Chairman of. He performed at that time . At this i time, he was Group Chairman of royal mail, time, he was Group Chairman of royal mail. Which time, he was Group Chairman of royal mail, which included post office. He was mail, which included post office. Was chair mail, which included post office. He was chair rmg. If you read, he says, i was a bit surprised to see the article in private either this week about a class action by Sub Postmasters. It may be a bit after the horse has bolted, but may be appropriate to have an explicit litigation legal report in the board papers for the future, obviously alices call. Shamans others is copied into this e mail. The article raises some questions about horizon. I suspect the audit and Risk Committee ought to take an interest. Have we ever had an independent audit of horizon . If we scroll up, please . You say in reply, you remember, this has reared its head before, iwill get you remember, this has reared its head before, i will get a brief circulated for new board members. In summary, each time any cases had gone to coat, the post offices position has been upheld. And in at least two cases, ruud gullit was proven. Stopping there, this is obviously before the 2012 Board Meeting guilt was proven. Where were you getting your information at this time that each time a case has gone to court, the post offices position has been upheld . I can only imaaine it position has been upheld . I can only imagine it would position has been upheld . I can only imagine it would have position has been upheld . I can only imagine it would have been position has been upheld . I can only imagine it would have been susie. Imagine it would have been susie crichton, imagine it would have been susie crichton, eitherthe imagine it would have been susie crichton, either the head of legal or at crichton, either the head of legal or at this crichton, either the head of legal or at this time she was head of legat or at this time she was head of legat it or at this time she was head of legal. It may have been claire ward all, legal. It may have been claire ward all. Im legal. It may have been claire ward all. Im not legal. It may have been claire ward all, im not sure. It is not something i would have known without either something i would have known without either having heard or spoken to somebody who headed up legal for the post office. I� m somebody who headed up legal for the ost office. �. , post office. Im not sure i caught the surname post office. Im not sure i caught the surname of post office. Im not sure i caught the surname of the post office. Im not sure i caught the surname of the other post office. Im not sure i caught| the surname of the other person. Wardelt the surname of the other person. Wardelt was the surname of the other person. Wardell. Was this the surname of the other person. Wardell. Was this kind the surname of the other person. Wardell. Was this kind of the surname of the other person. Wardell. Was this kind of thing i the surname of the other person. L wardell. Was this kind of thing said in conversation . We have always have won . , �. In conversation . We have always have won . , � ,. , in conversation . We have always have won . ,. ,. , won . No. Its obviously a fact that i had either won . No. Its obviously a fact that i had either in won . No. Its obviously a fact that i had either in my won . No. Its obviously a fact that i had either in my head won . No. Its obviously a fact that i had either in my head because i won . No. Its obviously a fact that i had either in my head because it| i had either in my head because it had been i had either in my head because it had been discussed presumably in a meeting had been discussed presumably in a meeting somewhere or i had gone to somehodym meeting somewhere or i had gone to somebody. Just looking at the time somebody. Just looking at the time yes. Somebody. Just looking at the time. Yes, its possible i spoke to somebody time. Yes, its possible i spoke to somebody before i replied, i dont know somebody before i replied, i dont know. ,. , somebody before i replied, i dont know. ,. , ,. , know. There is a series of statements know. There is a series of statements or know. There is a series of statements or facts i know. There is a series of statements or facts or i know. There is a series of i statements or facts or pieces of folklore that seemed to have circulated within the post office. Including every time we go to court, we won. Horizon has no faults in it, every time it has been investigated, no faults have been found. The contract with Sub Postmasters said they are responsible for all losses. No Remote Access is possible for even the post office or fujitsu. Each of which things turn out to be false. How is it that on all of these Critical Issues so many false statements were circulating within the post office . Shat statements were circulating within the post office . The post office . At the time, they were not considered the post office . At the time, they were not considered to the post office . At the time, they were not considered to be the post office . At the time, they were not considered to be false i were not considered to be false statements. And the source of those statements. Its unfair to say because statements. Its unfair to say because i statements. Its unfair to say because i cannot recall clearly, but on Something Like this, the only possible on Something Like this, the only possible source of this statement would possible source of this statement would have been through the post office would have been through the post office legal team. So the answer for all of office legal team. So the answer for all of them office legal team. So the answer for all of them would be to look for where all of them would be to look for where the all of them would be to look for where the expertise sat within the organisation as to the genesis of what organisation as to the genesis of what we organisation as to the genesis of what we now know where false statements. What we now know where false statements. ~. ,. ,. , � ,. , statements. Would you agree its a serious issue statements. Would you agree its a serious issue on statements. Would you agree its a serious issue on those statements. Would you agree its a serious issue on those four statements. Would you agree its a serious issue on those four points. Serious issue on those four points that i have mentioned . What the contract said, whether we win in court every time, whether fujitsu has Remote Access, and whether investigations into horizon had turned up false, its a Serious Issueif turned up false, its a serious issue if folklore develops, which in fact has no foundation in fact. I agree. Doesnt fact has no foundation in fact. I agree. Doesnt say fact has no foundation in fact. I agree. Doesnt Say Something l fact has no foundation in fact. I i agree. Doesnt Say Something about the culture of agree. Doesnt Say Something about the culture of the agree. Doesnt Say Something about the culture of the organisation i agree. Doesnt Say Something about the culture of the organisation if the culture of the organisation if such folklore developed and was perpetuated . Nobody texts the real facts. Checks the realfacts. Thats a difficult question to answer thats a difficult question to answer because in hindsight, it is completely valid. At the time, certainly completely valid. At the time, certainly where i was concerned, i believed certainly where i was concerned, i believed i certainly where i was concerned, i believed i was getting information from the believed i was getting information from the people who were employed to ive from the people who were employed to give me from the people who were employed to give me the from the people who were employed to give me the best advice because of their expertise. I didnt believe that their expertise. Ididnt believe that any their expertise. I didnt believe that any of those statements were folklore that any of those statements were folklore at all. Folklore at all. You say in the last paragraph. Folklore at all. You say in the last paragraph. To folklore at all. You say in the last paragraph, to avoid folklore at all. You say in the last paragraph, to avoid future folklore at all. You say in the last. Paragraph, to avoid future doubts, the post office took a decision several months ago to have horizon and the newer horizon online independently verified by an extent experiment. Is that a reference to work recommended by ernst young in their 2011 audit letter . I recommended by ernst young in their 2011 audit letter . Their 2011 audit letter . I cannot remember their 2011 audit letter . I cannot remember i their 2011 audit letter . I cannot remember. I have their 2011 audit letter . I cannot remember. I have seen their 2011 audit letter . I cannot remember. I have seen this i their 2011 audit letter . I cannot remember. I have seen this inl their 2011 audit letter . I cannot i remember. I have seen this in the bundle remember. I have seen this in the bundle and remember. I have seen this in the bundle and cannot remember what its a reference bundle and cannot remember what its a reference to. In bundle and cannot remember what its a reference to a reference to. In your Witness Statement. A reference to. In your Witness Statement, it a reference to. In your Witness Statement, it is a reference to. In your Witness Statement, it is paragraph i a reference to. In your witness i statement, it is paragraph 1276,. I did see another document in the bundle i did see another document in the bundle which refers to a piece of. I bundle which refers to a piece of. | o bundle which refers to a piece of. Too back bundle which refers to a piece of. Too