From Susan Crichton that due to advice from external lawyers, there was a need from external lawyers, there was a need for from external lawyers, there was a need for a from external lawyers, there was a need for a review to ensure that proper need for a review to ensure that proper disclosure had been given in previous proper disclosure had been given in previous criminal cases. Yes. You say that previous criminal cases. Yes. You say that you previous criminal cases. Yes. You say that you had a conversation with lestey say that you had a conversation with lestey saut say that you had a conversation with lesley saul in which she told you that the lesley saul in which she told you that The Post Office had been advised that The Post Office had been advised that the expert with witness that the advised that the expert with witness that The Post Office had used in crimihat that The Post Office had used in criminal cases to give evidence about criminal cases to give evidence about horizon had failed to mention that there about horizon had failed to mention that there were bugs in horizon, ihctudihg that there were bugs in horizon, including in the seam is the case. You tell including in the seam is the case. You tell us including in the seam is the case. You tell us that in your statement. Yes, you tell us that in your statement. Yes. Thats you tell us that in your statement. Yes, thats right. Can you tell us that in your statement. Yes, thats right. You tell us that in your statement. Yes, thats right. Can we please try to in yes, thats right. Can we please try to pin down yes, thats right. Can we please try to pin down the yes, thats right. Can we please try to pin down the date yes, thats right. Can we please try to pin down the date on yes, thats right. Can we please try to pin down the date on which yes, thats right. Can we please try to pin down the date on which youl to pin down the date on which you had knowledge of a problem on The Post Offices Expert Evidence . Its difficult to find the date exactly. I remember that i. Its difficult to find the date exactly. I rememberthat i. So, i learned of it first from leslie saul, not from Susan Crichton. What happened was i passed leslie saul in the corridor. She was looking particularly concerned or grumpy about something and i asked her what was the matter. She said that she had just heard that. I dont know that she said this, but i am assuming from susan, that the post Office Expert from fujitsu, who we had used in past cases, now had to be stood down because he had not revealed, and as i said yesterday, i think one or two bugs that he knew about in the case, and thats right, i think it was mrs misras. And the reason leslie saul explained that he hadnt revealed the bugs in that case is that he hadnt been. Mrs misery but i was on. Sorry the other way round, her case was on Legacy Horizon and these hadnt come into effect on horizon. The Legacy Horizon and these hadnt come into effect on horizon. Into effect on horizon. The way you tell it there into effect on horizon. The way you tell it there is into effect on horizon. The way you tell it there is that into effect on horizon. The way you tell it there is that leslie into effect on horizon. The way you tell it there is that leslie saul tell it there is that leslie saul was telling you that expat had failed was telling you that expat had failed to was telling you that expat had failed to mention bugs in one case and that failed to mention bugs in one case and that was seen in your Witness Statement and that was seen in your Witness Statement you say she told you that he had statement you say she told you that he had failed to give disclosure in crimihat he had failed to give disclosure in criminal cases, including simon misra seema misra. Seema misra. I spoke to susan within a day seema misra. I spoke to susan within a day or seema misra. I spoke to susan within a day or so seema misra. I spoke to susan within a day or so of seema misra. I spoke to susan within a day or so of that within a day or so of that conversation. If you can date when susan found out, it would have been just before that, because leslie saul could only have found out from susan. Br; saul could only have found out from susan. � ,. Saul could only have found out from susan. � ,. Susan. By this time, and i will call it mid2013. Susan. By this time, and i will call it mid2013. You susan. By this time, and i will call it mid2013, you had susan. By this time, and i will call it mid2013, you had been susan. By this time, and i will call. It mid2013, you had been engaged susan. By this time, and i will call it mid2013, you had been engaged on it mid 2013, you had been engaged On The Issues it mid 2013, you had been engaged On The Issues of it mid 2013, you had been engaged On The Issues of Horizon Integrity for some the issues of Horizon Integrity for some time, hadnt you . Yes. You knew there had some time, hadnt you . You knew there had been some time, hadnt you . Yes you knew there had been prosecutions and those there had been prosecutions and those prosecutions have been founded on evidence on horizon. Yes. When told on evidence on horizon. Yes. When totd try on evidence on horizon. Yes. When told by leslie saul and then Susan Crichton told by leslie saul and then Susan Crichton that there was an issue with the crichton that there was an issue with The Post Offices Expert Evidence that had been relied on to convicted evidence that had been relied on to convicted its Sub Postmasters, including convicted its Sub Postmasters, including seema misra. Where you concerned . Concerned . Yes, and i think susan had, and concerned . Yes, and i think susan had. And the concerned . Yes, and i think susan had, and the documentation concerned . Yes, and i think susan had, and the documentation saysl concerned . Yes, and i think susan i had, and the documentation says this i think, by the time i spoke to susan about it, she said, i think, that she had already put in chain and review by the external lawyers. And i think the documentation shows that she had done that before the written and advice from simon clarke came in on the 15th. Did written and advice from simon clarke came in on the 15th. Came in on the 15th. Did you, at the time, oin came in on the 15th. Did you, at the time. Join the came in on the 15th. Did you, at the time, join the dots came in on the 15th. Did you, at the time, join the dots between came in on the 15th. Did you, at the time, join the dots between the time, join the dots between the debates time, join the dots between the debates that we have seen you have in emaits debates that we have seen you have in e mails here with mr davies and leslie in e mails here with mr davies and leslie saut in e mails here with mr davies and leslie saul about the extent to which leslie saul about the extent to which The Post Office should announce that it was going to review past convictions, and the information that you were being given, information that you were being given, quite separately, that The Post Offices Expert Witness had failed post offices Expert Witness had failed to post offices Expert Witness had failed to make shin bugs of which he had knowledge in criminal cases. No, i did not had knowledge in criminal cases. I did not make had knowledge in criminal cases. Tic, i did not make that link. Why not . I think, because my. The e mails from mark davies and leslie saul are part of an iterative process as to how we took this important ongoing piece of work forwards. The conversation with Susan Crichton about the work that became known as this Sifter Review was. I think i took as a piece of reassurance that the lawyers were doing what they needed to do in terms of what i. And i think this was at the stage of what i learnt about disclosure. Of what i learnt about disclosure. Of what they needed to do in respect of disclosure. What i didnt know at this stage, to be very clear, was that by dint of what had happen with garethjenkins, The Post Office had breached its duties i dont think that was mentioned to me at the time. ,. ,. That was mentioned to me at the time. , ,. , time. Did you never at any time connect the time. Did you never at any time connect the longrunning time. Did you never at any time i connect the longrunning criticism connect the long running criticism of horizons connect the long running criticism of horizons integrity that had been forced of horizons integrity that had been forced upon The Post Office by Sub Postmasters for years and years with being Sub Postmasters for years and years with being informed that there was a problem with being informed that there was a problem with the Expert Evidence on which problem with the Expert Evidence on which the problem with the Expert Evidence on which The Post Office had relied about which The Post Office had relied about books . | which The Post Office had relied about books . Which The Post Office had relied about books . , � ,. About books . I dont think i made that connection about books . I dont think i made that connection because about books . I dont think i made that connection because it about books . I dont think i made that connection because it was. About books . I dont think i made l that connection because it was very specific. The information i was told was very specific which was that these two books were related to horizon online. There were two which were affected. By this stage, i knew about them, which affected iii were affected. By this stage, i knew about them, which affected 1a and 62 post office is a thing. All of whom had been informed, or in the case of the 14 had been informed, or in the case of the 1a were in the process of being informed, and the bugs had been fixed and the postmasters had not lost any money as a result of that. So, this was leslie saul� s frustration that these were two isolated incidents, Iaccept Frustration that these were two isolated incidents, i accept now thatis isolated incidents, i accept now that is incorrect, but that was what i was told. They had been fixed. There is even documentation that refers to them as a red herring, and the fact that susan was going through this Sifter Review, to me seemed reassuring. Tote through this Sifter Review, to me seemed reassuring. Through this Sifter Review, to me seemed reassuring. We are ust auoin to seemed reassuring. We are Ust Goingtocomei seemed reassuring. We are ust going to come away i seemed reassuring. We are ust going to come away from i seemed reassuring. We are just going to come away from eventsl seemed reassuring. We are just going to come away from events there in Central London on day two of evidence giving being given by paula vennells. You can follow that story on bbc news website. We are following day one of the general election campaign. Campaigning for the general election on ajuly, exactly six weeks away, is under way, the Party Leaders travelling around the country. My my colleagues ian watson and nick early are with Kia Star Matt and rishi sunak. Early are with Kia Star Matt and rishi sunak. ~. ,. ,. Rishi sunak. Where are you . We are in wales because rishi sunak. Where are you . We are in wales because rishi rishi sunak. Where are you . We are in wales because rishi sunak rishi sunak. Where are you . We are in wales because rishi sunak is in wales because rishi sunak is going on a Whistle Stop Tour of the uk. He is been in england already this morning. We think is going to scotland and Northern Ireland as well. He is trying to basically set the agenda for the selection. We saw him try to do it outside downing street in the rain yesterday. And now its time for it rishi sunak to ham his messages home about the economy being on a return, about labour not having a plan. Its not been a perfect day though yet for the Prime Minister. Really interesting that he had to concede this morning that there Rwanda Scheme would not come into operation before the general election. Basically, there would not be a plane taking off before the 4th of july. Rishi sunak is trying to use that to say, well, look this is a bit divided right now with the general election, because labour would scrap it. But remember, this scheme has been more than two years in gestation. They originally intended for planes to take off in the spring. So, it does feel like thatis the spring. So, it does feel like that is starting to slip again. Also, we have met the Migration Secretary this morning shown that the number of people coming into the uk, and although it is down a bit from the last year, it is still massive, 660,000, and that is a problem for the Prime Minister, because from what we heard earlier in the show this morning, he is the man to get on top of immigration. He is this is something, i have got the bold ideas, as he put it, to deal with it. So, pretty bad news for the Prime Minister. It will not be welcome by his team. But heres a confident prediction for you. When we see the Prime Minister rock up in a brewery in south wales in the next 20 minutes or so, a brewery in south wales in the next 20 minutes orso, he a brewery in south wales in the next 20 minutes or so, he will be full of beans. That is what he is trying to sell voters. He is full of energy, he is trying to win voters. I sell voters. He is full of energy, he is trying to win voters. I think we ust he is trying to win voters. I think we just lost he is trying to win voters. I think we just lost the he is trying to win voters. I think we just lost the end he is trying to win voters. I think we just lost the end of he is trying to win voters. I think we just lost the end of that he is trying to win voters. I think we just lost the end of that on i he is trying to win voters. I think i we just lost the end of that on your Magical Mystery Tour. That is nick eardley travelling with the Prime Minister around the country. He was there in south wales. It is worth saying that this is just day one of what can be a pretty gruelling campaign for everybody involved, for the politicians, Party Leaders and journalists travelling right around the country as those leaders meet with voters. It was pretty clear this morning, we heard from rishi sunak earlier, he was pretty clean to pretty keen to paint the picture of a man who had experience of what it took to lead the chancellor during the pandemic of course bringing about that fellow scheme. He wants to paint himself as a safe pair of hands and one that will see the uk through what he has described as pretty turbulent years to come. On the other hand, we heard from the leader of the labour party. He was in gillingham in kent this morning. He was talking about a vote for labour being a vote for change. He said that conservatives have had 14 he said that conservatives have had iii years in office and have failed to deliver and they dont really have a plan about what comes left. I think its fair to say that we might see some of the personalities come out, it might be a clash of personalities where this thing comes a bit personal. Weve heard that from rishi sunak that keir starmer has no conviction. If you are watching on bbc two right now, you can watch politics live in the continuing coverage. We are going to continue our tool right around the country. Joining me now is our Political Correspondent iain watson in gillingham. We were talking this morning about it being a vote for change. Those are the words of keir starmer. I wonder what voters in kent are telling you this morning. It is the start of a six week campaign. There is all to play for, isnt there . There is indeed, ben. Certainly, labour have distilled the message into one placard. It says change. That is the key word. When they talk to the voters they need to win over, people say that it is time for a change. The sense you get from gelling as well. This was a seat won by labour under tony blair, but this has been held for some time by a conservative mp. That is what effectively labour are trying to say. It has been iii years of a conservative led government. This is Notjust Conservative led government. This is not just about conservative led government. This is notjust about rishi sunak, when you talk about personalities, it is about the conservatives record throughou