I just want to take you to central london, where a Security Conference is taking place. Among the speakers at the the event are william burns, head of the cia, and sir Richard Moore, head of mi6. Two big names. They have already been talking about two big names. They have already been talking about the war in ukraine and they have also just been talking about the Middle East, so what we are going to do is take a listen into what they are saying to the audience that is at an event organised by the ft. A very highly fragile price in the Middle East, but all the risk to go with that, and we have navigated, touch wood, touch wood, past a Crisis Point between israel and iran, but as long as we dont get to a ceasefire, that risk is there, and for all the horror of gaza, and for all the horror of gaza, a wider conflict in the Middle East would be vastly worse. gs East would be vastly worse. As Ou East would be vastly worse. As you both know, in negotiations, you both know, in negotiations, you also have to put pressure on both parties or you have to provide incentives for both parties, so in a way sometimes you have to enforce the terms of a ceasefire, for example. Is the us, is the uk, willing to put the pressure necessary to get a ceasefire . I put the pressure necessary to get a ceasefire . Get a ceasefire . I mean, i think we get a ceasefire . I mean, i think we have get a ceasefire . I mean, i think we have to get a ceasefire . I mean, i think we have to be, get a ceasefire . I mean, i think we have to be, and. Get a ceasefire . I mean, i i think we have to be, andjust think we have to be, and just speaking think we have to be, and just speaking for the policymakers in the speaking for the policymakers in the us administration, i think in the us administration, i think there has been a very hard think there has been a very hard push. The president himself hard push. The president himself has been very actively involved himself has been very actively involved in all this. That is a critical involved in all this. That is a critical role for the united states critical role for the united states to play, i agree, and i believe states to play, i agree, and i believe for the egyptians, for Everyone Else who has a stake, and the Everyone Else who has a stake, and the horrific Human Conditions that we are all recognising, anyone with any influence recognising, anyone with any influence Over Hamas has to push influence Over Hamas has to push hard in that direction. They push hard in that direction. They should not be the obstacle in the they should not be the obstacle in the path of the humanitarian assistance, the possibility of generally improving water horrific generally improving water horrific conditions in gaza. What horrific conditions in gaza. What is horrific conditions in gaza. What is your assessment of hamas capabilities . Would you say it is decimated . Destroyed . Well, i mean. Ithink over the well, i mean. Ithink over the last . Well, i mean. Ithink over the last . Over the last 11 months. The last . Over the last 11 months, what the israelis have done months, what the israelis have done in months, what the israelis have done in response to, as What Richard done in response to, as What Richard said about ukraine, they richard said about ukraine, they started with a Barbaric Hamas they started with a barbaric Hamas Attack which killed hundreds and hundreds of innocent israelis, i think what the israeii innocent israelis, i think what the israeli military has succeeded in doing is severely degrading hamas Military Capabilities over the last 11 months capabilities over the last 11 months. The problem with the term months. The problem with the term that months. The problem with the term that is sometimes used about term that is sometimes used about Destroying Hamas is that it is of about Destroying Hamas is that it is of course true that hamas is a despicable terrorist organisation. You can severely degrade organisation. You can severely degrade their Military Capabilities. It is also a movement and an idea, and in my Experience Movement and an idea, and in my experience the only way you kill an experience the only way you kill an idea is with a better idea, kill an idea is with a better idea, and kill an idea is with a better idea, and that is why it is so crucial idea, and that is why it is so crucial to idea, and that is why it is so crucial to offer some sense of hope crucial to offer some sense of hope for crucial to offer some sense of hope for the day after, not just hope for the day after, not just in hope for the day after, not just in gaza but for palestinians and israelis. And that is at the palestinians and israelis. And that is at the two palestinians and israelis. fic that is at the two State Solution . That is at the two State Solution . solution . Always has been . I have been solution . Always has been . I have been around solution . Always has been . I have been around this solution . Always has been . I have been around this issue | solution . Always has been . I i have been around this issue for a very have been around this issue for a very long have been around this issue for a very long time, as has richard, a very long time, as has richard, it is a very elusive goat richard, it is a very elusive goat the richard, it is a very elusive goal. The only thing i would say is, goal. The only thing i would say is, show me what is a better say is, show me what is a better alternative for palestinians and israelis to live palestinians and israelis to live together in Peace And Security live together in Peace And Security for both of them and to do security for both of them and to do It Security for both of them and to do it in security for both of them and to do it in a way which is going to do it in a way which is going to to do it in a way which is going to contribute to at least some going to contribute to at least some hope for regional stability as well. Applause. Richard, what stability as well. Applause. Richard, what is stability as well. Applause. Richard, what is your richard, what is your assessment of irans intentions . Do you think it will still retaliate for that assassination . It said it would and we have not seen that yet. I suspect they will try, and we wont be able to let our guard down for the type of activity that the iranians might try and prosecute in that direction, and the iranians have a whole playbook, a destabilising playbook, a destabilising playbook, around the region, and we see that in their sponsorship, what they do with militia, and, plus, a Track Record of going after dissidents, including in this country, to try and kill them, so we are dealing with a power that continues to try to intimidate its opponents and to take revenge for things that have happened, yet, so it remains a focus for both of us to try and understand this country and to try and understand the threats that might come out of tehran. Taste might come out of tehran. We have always might come out of tehran. We have always talked about the risk of a regional war and this year, i think we came very close to that and the risk is still there. Do you think, bill, that from an israeli perspective, there is perhaps an intention, or they are not as worried today about a regional war as they might have Beenin Regional War as they might have been in the past . I regional war as they might have been in the past . Been in the past . I mean, my sense is been in the past . I mean, my sense is there been in the past . I mean, my sense is there is been in the past . I mean, my sense is there is genuine sense is there is genuine concern, sense is there is genuine concern, certainly among the people concern, certainly among the people we deal with in the israeli people we deal with in the israeli Intelligence And Security services about the potential for a much wider Regional Potential for a much wider regional conflict. And i think that regional conflict. And i think that is regional conflict. And i think that is why a ceasefire in gaza becomes that is why a ceasefire in gaza becomes so important. That is why it becomes so important. That is why it is becomes so important. That is why it is also important to see what why it is also important to see what is why it is also important to see what is possible if beyond even a ceasefire, if we are ever able a ceasefire, if we are ever able to a ceasefire, if we are ever able to achieve that, you could take able to achieve that, you could take steps which could result in the take steps which could result in the normalisation of relationships between Saudi Arabia relationships between Saudi Arabia and israel that would in no way Arabia And Israel that would in no way be Arabia And Israel that would in no way be the ultimate counter to the no way be the ultimate counter to the iranians ambitions that richard to the iranians ambitions that richard described before. It is easy richard described before. It is easy to richard described before. It is easy to be a pessimist about the Middle East. I have spent a lot of the Middle East. I have spent a lot of years working on this Issue Lot of years working on this issue. The Middle East is a place issue. The Middle East is a place where pessimists feel right place where pessimists feel right at place where pessimists feel right at home, but i think there right at home, but i think there is right at home, but i think there is a right at home, but i think there is a possibility, which strategically would offer not only strategically would offer not only israel but a lot of our friends only israel but a lot of our friends in only israel but a lot of our friends in the Arab World the ultimate friends in the Arab World the ultimate counter to the ambitions of this particular iranians ambitions of this particular iranians regime. Ambitions of this particular iranians regime. And this is wh the iranians regime. And this is why the focus iranians regime. And this is why the focus on iranians regime. And this is why the focus on the iranians regime. And this is i why the focus on the ceasefire is so important. If you could get the ceasefire in gaza, you would have a chance to reverse the momentum, you have a chance to open up the potential of a deal over the Blue Line between israel and lebanon, you have a chance to address the disruption to international shipping in the red sea. A number of things flow, but we do need desperately, and it is why bill and others devote so much unrelenting effort to try to bring it to pass. To bring it to pass. There is one thing to bring it to pass. There is one thing we to bring it to pass. There is one thing we have to bring it to pass. There is one thing we have yet to bring it to pass. There is one thing we have yet to i to bring it to pass. There is i one thing we have yet to talk about and that is the biggest issue for both of you, and that issue for both of you, and that is china, which you both considered to be the biggest. The most significant strategic Challenge And Intelligence Challenge And Intelligence challenge will stop your agencies dedicate more resources to china than to anywhere else. My first question is, are the us Export Controls as effective as you would like, bill . Or has china been very effective at circumventing them, including getting hold of the most advanced. . I getting hold of the most advanced. . Getting hold of the most advanced. . Getting hold of the most advanced. .. advanced. . I think what this administration advanced. . I think what this administration has advanced. . I think what this administration has done advanced. . I think what this administration has done in advanced. . I think what this | administration has done in this area, administration has done in this area, recognising that in the way area, recognising that in the way the area, recognising that in the way the revolution in technology is the main arena for us technology is the main arena for us at technology is the main arena for us at least in competition with for us at least in competition with china has had some impact as well with china has had some impact as well. And certainly, at cia, as well. And certainly, at cia, as you as well. And certainly, at cia, as you were suggesting before, we organise ourselves to reflect we organise ourselves to reflect that priority. We have the only reflect that priority. We have the only single Country Mission Centre, the only single Country Mission Centre, which is one of the 12 also centre, which is one of the 12 also building blocks of our agency, also building blocks of our agency, the only single country mission agency, the only single Country Mission Centre devoted to china Mission Centre devoted to china. We have tripled the size of our china. We have tripled the size of our budget devoted to the china of our budget devoted to the china challenge. It represents about china challenge. It represents about 20 of our overall budget now about 20 of our overall budget now i about 20 of our overall budget now. I learned a long time ago, you dont now. I learned a long time ago, you dont have priorities, budgets you dont have priorities, budgets follow them. I can safely budgets follow them. I can safely predict we will continue to do safely predict we will continue to do that over the next Decade And Beyond. Do to do that over the next Decade And Beyond to do that over the next Decade And Beyond. Do you both see any imact and beyond. Do you both see any impact on and beyond. Do you both see any impact on president and beyond. Do you both see any impact on president from and beyond. Do you both see any impact on president from the impact on president from the economic problems that china has gone through over the past year . The economic headwinds. I guess any rural of any ruler of any country, how your economy is performing is an issue you need to worry about. In terms of his power inside The System. Mr; in terms of his power inside The System in terms of his power inside thes stem. Y, The System. My sense, bill will have a view. The system. My sense, bill will have a view, my The System. My sense, bill will have a view, my sense The System. My sense, bill will have a view, my sense is The System. My sense, bill will have a view, my sense is that i have a view, my sense is that he is probably the most powerful chinese ruler since mao. He has a very tight control over his political system. And he has an ambitious agenda, both at home and also overseas, and that is why we devote so much effort to understanding china, because it is such a hugely important actor on the international stage. It is one that in many cases contests our interests, contests our values, and therefore it is really important that we provide our political leaders with the best possible insights into what is often a rather opaque, difficult to read country. And difficult to read country. And we are very. Difficult to read country. And we are very, very difficult to read country. And we are very, very interested in your insights. Edit we are very, very interested in your insights your insights. Of course. Laughter your insights. Of course. Laughter. Laughter. It is very important, but is also important to engage. Bill and i talk to our chinese counterparts. It is essential that you get a cross of the messaging, and we talked about ukraine earlier on, we both sat in front and talk them through where we think we would like to see greater chinese engagement with preventing the passage of dual use goods, for example. And i have been to china twice over and i have been to china twice over the and i have been to china twice over the last year because keeping over the last year because keeping those intelligence channels open is really important, and even the most adversarial or competitive of relationships, to avoid unnecessary misunderstandings, and so unnecessary misunderstandings, and so for unnecessary misunderstandings, and so for the united states, managing responsibly that big, hugely managing responsibly that big, hugely significant competitive relationship is our biggest challenge and keeping those Intelligence Challenge is channels Intelligence Challenge is channels open is an important part channels open is an important part of channels open is an important part of dealing with it. The same part of dealing with it. The same is part of dealing with it. The same is true of what people call intelligence diplomacy. What call intelligence diplomacy. What we both do with allies and partner what we both do with allies and Partner Intelligence services across Partner Intelligence services across the Indo Pacific too, that across the Indo Pacific too, that is across the Indo Pacific too, that is a across the Indo Pacific too, that is a huge asset for us in dealing that is a huge asset for us in dealing with that challenge of the people pop the Peoples Republic the people pop the Peoples Republic of china, so we invest a Lot Republic of china, so we invest a lot of republic of china, so we invest a lot of time and effort in that a lot of time and effort in that.... that. One area of great competition that. One area of great competition is that. One area of great competition is al. That. One area of great competition is al. Richard, as i understand it, you are using ai i understand it, you are using alto i understand it, you are using al to game out operations and how adversaries may respond, and to also predict Human Behaviour in certain situations. My question is, what ai are you developing your own models . Are you using Chat Gpt . I own models . Are you using Chat Gpt . 4 own models . Are you using Chat Gpt . ~ ,.. own models . Are you using Chat Gpt . ~ ,. , gpt . I think you would you wor if gpt . I think you would you worry if we gpt . I think you would you worry if we were gpt . I think you would you worry if we were just gpt . I t