The day. Most of those up towards the North And West and the changes will start tonight and through the day tomorrow. Cold fronts weeping southwards and eastwards, just opening the release will proceed tomorrow, despite party unease. Number 10 says it has no choice but will these judgements define the prime Minister And Chancellor for years to come . Welcome to newsnight, the home of insight, interviews, and tonight, insistence, from the chancellor, Rachel Reeves, that there will be no compromise on her decision to axe the universal Winter Fuel payments for pensioners. She points towards figures due out in a few hours time that would mean a further above Inflation Increase in the State Pension. Our Panel Tonight kezia dugdale, leader of the scottish Labour Party between 2015 and 2017. Sir conor burns, who was a trade and northern Ireland Minister under Boris Johnson and liz truss. Nick was outside the meeting of Labour Mps who heard from the chancellor a few hours ago. And barry gardiner� s here with us to talk about the Winter Fuel payment vote. Hes Labour Mp for brent west. And hows he going to vote. Nick, mps being encouraged to hold the line. Are they . I had to say it looked like a bit of a political operation in that meeting with some very nervous looking Downing Street aides and then the chancellor marched into the Committee Room smiling and looking confident and holding a can of coke and delivered this strong message, we stand, we lead and we govern together. But i understand there was a very heavy message delivered by Sir Alan Campbell who is the Chief Whip and he essentially said that new Labour Mps need to vote with the government, you know the consequences if you dont and both against them, that you lose the web but then some Labour Mps heard hiM Speak it pretty strong terms about how they would very much frown on abstentions because there were reports that as many as 50 Labour Mps mightabstain. Reports that as many as 50 Labour Mps might abstain. The way they heard it, they rather got the impression that if you abstained, you could be in danger of losing the whip, normally it is meeting with a coffee and a slap on the wrist. And the mood, the word from the government Whips Office is they believe that tomorrow they are going to avoid a damaging rebellion but i have to say, there are a lot of very unhappy Labour Mps, including ministers, and i think what you will find tomorrow is a lot of Labour Mps will vote for this but vote with heavy heart. I5 will vote for this but vote with heavy heart will vote for this but vote with hea heart. ,. ,. ,. Heavy heart. Is that when you heard, bar . Heavy heart. Is that when you heard, barry . You heavy heart. Is that when you heard, barry . You post a heavy heart. Is that when you heard, barry . You post a question heavy heart. Is that when you heard, barry . You post a question at heavy heart. Is that when you heard, barry . You post a question at the I Barry . You post a question at the beginning. Barry . You post a question at the beginning, it would barry . You post a question at the beginning, it would define barry . You post a question at the beginning, it would define the beginning, it would define the chancellor and the Prime Minister in the long chancellor and the Prime Minister in the long term. I think the answer to that is the long term. I think the answer to that is yes, the long term. I think the answer to that is yes, it the long term. I think the answer to that is yes, it will. It will define them that is yes, it will. It will define them as that is yes, it will. It will define them as a that is yes, it will. It will define them as a leadership that is determined to tackle the underlying problems determined to tackle the underlying problems in our economy that we have inherited problems in our economy that we have inherited. And they will take the tough inherited. And they will take the tough decisions to do that. Nobody, nobody tough decisions to do that. Nobody, nobody in tough decisions to do that. Nobody, nobody in the Labour Party, and i wont nobody in the Labour Party, and i wont go nobody in the Labour Party, and i wont go over what was said in that Room Wont go over what was said in that room tonight, but nobody in the labour room tonight, but nobody in the Labour Party would like to see the sort of Labour Party would like to see the sort of problems that will be caused for elderly sort of problems that will be caused for elderly people who are just above for elderly people who are just above that threshold of £12,460. But what was above that threshold of £12,460. But what was absolutely clear is that every what was absolutely clear is that every one what was absolutely clear is that every one of them realised that when you inherit a every one of them realised that when you inherit a £21. 9 billion Black Hole. You inherit a £21. 9 billion Black Hole. Hot you inherit a £21. 9 billion Black Hole, not in the future but in the current hole, not in the future but in the current year, you have to take tough choices current year, you have to take tough choices ami current year, you have to take tough choices. And what they hope, and i think choices. And what they hope, and i think what choices. And what they hope, and i think what was expressed, is that they know think what was expressed, is that they know the chancellor wants to make they know the chancellor wants to make this they know the chancellor wants to make this as easy as possible, and that is make this as easy as possible, and that is why make this as easy as possible, and that is why there is so much effort being that is why there is so much effort being put that is why there is so much effort being put into now, 500 Million going being put into now, 500 Million going into being put into now, 500 Million going into the payments to local authorities, to help people and that is the authorities, to help people and that is the reason they are actually expanding the applications for pension expanding the applications for pension credit. And that can make the difference that i urge everybody, the last government, 880,000 everybody, the last government, 880,000 people they left without pension 880,000 people they left without pension credit. They could have done that and pension credit. They could have done that and they didnt. That and they didnt. Which way i do auoin to that and they didnt. Which way i do going to vote . That and they didnt. Which way i do going to vote . I that and they didnt. Which way i do going to vote . I will that and they didnt. Which way i do going to vote . I will be voting that and they didnt. Which way i do going to vote . I will be voting with l going to vote . I will be voting with the government. Going to vote . I will be voting with the government. Tono going to vote . I will be voting with | the government. Tono abstention . Absolutely not. But the government. Tono abstention . Absolutely not. The government. Tono abstention . Absolutely not. But youre concerned about the impact . Absolutely not. But youre concerned about the impact . You absolutely not. But youre concerned about the impact . You have absolutely not. But youre concerned about the impact . You have to about the impact . You have to understand about the impact . You have to understand that about the impact . You have to understand that tomorrows i about the impact . You have to l understand that Tomorrows Vote about the impact . You have to understand that Tomorrows Vote is not can understand that Tomorrows Vote is not can be understand that Tomorrows Vote is not can be put a tape in Place And Ametiorate not can be put a tape in place and ameliorate this in some way. The vote, ameliorate this in some way. The vote, The Ameliorate this in some way. The vote, the amendment of the conservatives put forward is simply to leave conservatives put forward is simply to leave things as they are. If they are going to leave things as they are. If they are going to say that, Rishi Sunak owes are going to say that, Rishi Sunak owes us are going to say that, Rishi Sunak owes us an are going to say that, Rishi Sunak owes us an explanation could wear what owes us an explanation could wear what they owes us an explanation could wear what they get the £1. 5 billion that actually what they get the £1. 5 billion that actually this will create . He what they get the £1. 5 billion that actually this will create . What they get the £1. 5 billion that actually this will create . He is now the leader of actually this will create . He is now the leader of the opposition. Actually this will create . He is now the leader of the opposition. It i the leader of the opposition. It is his amendment you talked about amelioration, we push for some amelioration, we push for some amelioration because it does not look like amelioration because it does not look like from the words of the chancellor that is on offer at all. I chancellor that is on offer at all. I dont chancellor that is on offer at all. I dont get chancellor that is on offer at all. I dont get right. I think the chancellor has been very clear and actually, chancellor has been very clear and actually, ministers have been very clear actually, ministers have been very clear in actually, ministers have been very clear in the actually, ministers have been very clear in the Department Work Work and pensions that actually there is and pensions that actually there is a huge and pensions that actually there is a huge expansion going on to increase a huge expansion going on to increase the application pension credit~ increase the application pension credit. , increase the application pension credit. , � , credit. That wont help the people ust above credit. That wont help the people just above that credit. That wont help the people just above that level. Credit. That wont help the people just above that level. So credit. That wont help the people just above that level. So youre i just above that level. So youre saying youre fine with the policy as it is . , saying youre fine with the Policy Asitis . ,. , as it is . Nobody comes in wanting to do this. As it is . Nobody comes in wanting to do this itut as it is . Nobody comes in wanting to do this. But what as it is . Nobody comes in wanting to do this. But what you have as it is . Nobody comes in wanting to do this. But what you have to as it is . Nobody comes in wanting to do this. But what you have to say as it is . Nobody comes in wanting to do this. But what you have to say is. Do this. But what you have to say is how are do this. But what you have to say is how are you do this. But what you have to say is how are you going to find the 21. 9 billion . How are you going to find the 21. 9 billion . This is 1. 5 towards it. There are billion . This is 1. 5 towards it. There are other tough choices coming down there are other tough choices coming down the there are other tough choices coming down the line you could argue that it is 15 down the line you could argue that it is 15 the down the line you could argue that it is 1. 5 the other way, are you going it is 1. 5 the other way, are you going to it is 1. 5 the other way, are you going to put that on the back of pensioners . There was another 20 Billion to find, there was another 20 Billion to find, thats the point. There was another 20 Billion to find, thats the point. As we know, half of that find, thats the point. As we know, half of that was find, thats the point. As we know, half of that was because find, thats the point. As we know, half of that was because you find, thats the point. As we know, half of that was because you chose J Half of that was because you chose to increase public Sector Pay. Trio. To increase public Sector Pay. No, no. To increase public Sector Pay. No, no that to increase public Sector Pay. No, no. That was to increase public Sector Pay. No, no. That was a to increase public Sector Pay. No, no. That was a choice. To increase public Sector Pay. No, no. That was a choice. Aprilia i no. That was a choice. Aprilia by 496 no. That was a choice. Aprilia by 496 rather no. That was a choice. Aprilia by 4 rather than no. That was a choice. Aprilia by 4 rather than 4. 596. No. That was a choice. Aprilia by 4 rather than 4. 5 . Im no. That was a choice. Aprilia by 496 rather than 4. 596. IM Sorry,. 496 rather than 4. 596. IM Sorry, there is no 496 rather than 4. 596. IM Sorry, there is no government 496 rather than 4. 596. IM Sorry, there is no government can 496 rather than 4. 596. IM Sorry, there is no government can no. There is no government can no government that would refuse to go along government that would refuse to go along with government that would refuse to go along with what the public Sector Pay review body set. Conservative, labour, Pay Review Body set. Conservative, labour, coalition, we have altered if that labour, coalition, we have altered if that is labour, coalition, we have altered if that is what the body says, that is what if that is what the body says, that is what you if that is what the body says, that is what you do. And if you want to et is what you do. And if you want to get the is what you do. And if you want to get the economy back working again, what you get the economy back working again, what you need is to get people back into work what you need is to get people back into work. ~. , what you need is to get people back into work. ~. ,. ,. , into work. What got to do. They wasted into work. What got to do. They wasted. They into work. What got to do. They wasted. They wasted into work. What got to do. They wasted. They wasted billions i into work. What got to do. They wasted. They wasted billions of| wasted. They wasted billions of pounds wasted. They wasted billions of pounds on wasted. They wasted billions of pounds on strike you seem to be arguing pounds on strike you seem to be arguing that this is some sort of display arguing that this is some sort of display for arguing that this is some sort of display for the markets. You punish the pensioners display for the markets. You punish the pensioners and display for the markets. You punish the pensioners and get display for the markets. You punish the pensioners and get credibility. I the pensioners and get credibility. Then you spend it in a few years but that seems to be the implication are what the chancellor said. We get to invest and get prosperity later if we take this specific tough decision now . We we take this specific tough decision now . ~. ,. , we take this specific tough decision now . ,. , now . We have a £21. 9 billion Black Hole in this now . We have a £21. 9 billion Black Hole in this years budget. Now . We have a £21. 9 billion Black Hole in this years budget. That now . We have a £21. 9 billion Black Hole in this years budget. That is L Hole in this years budget. That is Money Hole in this years budget. That is money that hole in this years budget. That is money that the conservative administration did not put into the Budget Administration did not put into the budget i administration did not put into the budaet. , administration did not put into the budaet. ,. ,. , budget. I have to bring in conor. This year. Budget. I have to bring in conor. This year, this budget. I have to bring in conor. This year, this was budget. I have to bring in conor. This year, this was the key, budget. I have to bring in conor. This year, this was the key, they need to find savings in this financial year and there are very few available and this was one that was available and its about the legacy. Was available and its about the lea. , was available and its about the lea. ,. , was available and its about the leaa. ,. , was available and its about the lea. ,. ,. Legacy. You have ust had a masterclass legacy. You have ust had a masterclass in legacy. Yo