It's nice to be here. It's great to have you on the programme. For the past 1a years, your boss, prime minister viktor orban, has been waging a political war against what he calls the liberal elite in brussels. Do you think he's winning that war? no, it's a. . . It's a long war. We still have time, but we have to take the war because. . . . . Because it's about our freedom, and, you know, ithink in european culture, we respect freedom. The hungarian people are very much freedomloving people. They want to decide how to live their own life, what to do what is their purpose, what are the rules they want to follow? and from a historical point of view, also, we hungarians don't like to be dictated from outside. It doesn't matter from which direction it comes. Unfortunately, the current progressive liberal elite likes to dictate to the others how to live their life and what to do, what to think about the world order or anything else, so it's a. . . It's a long battle. Thing is. . . But we're still standing. Yeah, you're still standing, and you're still members of the club. I mean, if you're in a club, you'd like to think that all members were committed to consensual politics, to finding solutions together. But it seems you and your boss, viktor orban, have given up on that approach. I'm just seeing something you wrote recently the era of peaceful coexistence with liberal forces is over. Does that mean you see a new era of total political confrontation in brussels? unfortunately, if you follow the news which are coming from the western world notjust from my country, notjust from brussels, but from london or from washington, dc you see that this peaceful coexistence is everywhere over. Unfortunately, things are very much polarised. Like, politicians are getting shot, they want to sentence to jail, huge riots, rebels and so on and so on, huge confrontation, huge violation of freedom of speech and rights and so on. So unfortunately, the west has lost its way, and. . . But hang on a minute, the people you're talking about who adopt violent means, they're not democrats. I mean, you're supposed to be a democrat. In the european union, for example. . . Yeah, violation is not a democratic value. It's an undemocratic value. I'm just talking about the symptoms. And, you know, the postcold war golden age period of time is over. Everybody knows that in your country, in germany, in hungary and we have to react, and we hungarians, we are members of the club. We signed up for the rules. But there is nowhere in the rules that you can't have your opinion, you can't suggest an alternative direction for europe. I mean, we believe in democracy, we believe in european cooperation, we even believe in nato, which is a. . . Well, you don't, to be honest with you. I'm just looking at the reaction of prime minister orban to the reappointment of ursula von der leyen to be president of the european commission for a second term. Your boss said, we cannot work together with her. It is clear that hungary intends, over the next few months, years, to be a blocking force inside brussels. We are dissatisfied with ursula von der leyen*s policies, and last term, so our recommendation for europe was not to choose her as a candidate. But the rest, the other member states, they made a different decision. But the point now is that the european politicians see how hungary operates inside the european union, and they do not like it. There's deep frustration with your country, particularly, let's get to the specifics, particularly over your strategy, your approach to the war in ukraine. According to lithuania's foreign minister, gabrielius landsbergis, hungary has blocked a1% of the different approaches, resolutions that the eu has tried to adopt on the ukraine war. He says, this has gone too far. We, as a community, the european union, the club, we have to find a way around hungary's determination to block. I mean, it's very transparent what we're doing. We have a minority opinion in the last two and a half years. I think that we are on the good side of history, so history will prove that what we were saying from day one about the war, it will come, it will become a truth, because what we were saying it's obvious that russia is taking responsibility, has to take responsibility for this violation of international law, act against ukraine. So, russia attacked ukraine. This is out of question. But the important part of it, what to do, how to solve the conflict, and the european leaders and the western liberal leaders in the last two and a half years were saying that we should support the ukrainians, push the war further, don't do any kind of diplomatic actions, not engage with russia, push further the war and support the ukrainians. And what happened? more than 500,000 people died. Ukraine lost more territory than they had before. Ukraine, as a country, from an economic point of view, collapsed. There is a serious daily risk of escalation. So i don't see it as a sound and logical strategy on the western side, and we hungarians are criticising this strategy from day one. We have an alternative vision about that, and they want to silence us in the name of european whatsoever unity. I think the most important value in europe is democracy, is plurality, where every member state can be heard. Europe hears you. Europe hears what many regard as putin's apologist, sitting in budapest, because when you say that the only solution here is to stop the war, you, in essence, are saying to vladimir putin that he can keep what he currently holds, which is almost 20% of ukraine's. . . But sorry to say that. . . . . Sovereign territory. . . Why is the case that all the liberals, the same kind of people, there is a conflict in the middle east, and they know how to solve the conflict. They talk about how to solve the conflict in the middle east every day first, restore communication channels, then put together a shortterm ceasefire and try to figure out a longterm peace agreement. The same kind of people, they don't know this in the case of ukraine and russia wars. You say there is no question that russia invaded ukraine, that international law, international justice requires russia to leave ukraine's sovereign territory. You agree with that, right? yes. So why do you say that that so why do you say that that cannot be achieved by ukraine cannot be achieved by ukraine fighting a war of fighting a war of national resistance? national resistance? because it's. . . Because it's. . . Forfirst, it's realpolitiks. Forfirst, it's realpolitiks. You have to see what is you have to see what is going on the front line. Going on the front line. Second, i don't want to risk second, i don't want to risk the third world war. The third world war. I don't know what you think i don't know what you think about this, but i don't about this, but i don't want to risk want to risk the third world war. The third world war. But the point about but the point about your position is. . . Your position is. . . So. . . Hang on, so. . . Hang on, the point about your position the point about your position is, you're saying ukraine is, you're saying ukraine cannot win, but you then thwart cannot win, but you then thwart europe's efforts to help europe's efforts to help ukraine with financial and military assistance, ukraine with financial and military assistance, therefore becoming therefore becoming a selfperpetuating circle. A selfperpetuating circle. You say ukraine can't win, you say ukraine can't win, because you are one because you are one of the countries blocking of the countries blocking giving ukraine the means giving ukraine the means to win. To win. Separate the two things separate the two things from each other. From each other. We support ukraine in many senses humanitarian support, energy support and so on and so on. We are providing, we hungarians, hungarian taxpayers, are providing money for the functioning of ukrainian state. It's about the ukrainian nurses, it's about the ukrainian teachers and so on. . . But right now, right now, you are, as we speak to each other, you are still inside the european union's processes, you are still blocking more than 6 billion euros* worth of aid that the rest of the eu wants to send. . . Military aid. . . To ukraine, and you are refusing. Because we don't want to be part of it. Ijust, i just want to stop killing people for nothing. It happens. . . It happens for no reason. I mean, why don't we stop it? if you portray those who disagree with the mainstream policy of the west as putin's puppet, then, intellectually, all discussions are immediately becoming dead. Many countries in the eu have weaned themselves off russian oil and gas. You've chosen to go to moscow and actually sign new agreements, which deepen your dependency on russian gas, in particular, but also, you still want to use russian oil. We want to use oil which helps for the hungarian economy. It's a decision which is based on national interests, why? it makes sense. You're also getting loans of more than 12 billion euros to build a nuclear power plant using russian technology, russian construction workers. You have actuallyjust fasttracked a new visa system to allow more russians to come into your country. These are all signs that, when it comes to the strategic choice to be made in europe, budapest has made its choice. It's going with putin. I respectfully disagree with you, for many reasons, and mainly on a factual basis. We have to dig down into the things. It's obvious that we don't want to give up our sovereignty. We want to decide with whom we cooperate on the field of energy policy, and we have our energy resources. . . You are dependent on russia. Yes, yes, but for us. . . It's not cooperation, it's dependency. No, no, no, no. But we have alternative channels. I don't know if you have time, we can go into the details. I can show you all the interconnectors, i can show you all the development, and i can explain you why a nuclear power plant means, for a small country, a small, landlocked country like hungary, means more independence in the field of energy, not less independence. So it's very important for us. It's true. We want to maintain our pragmatic, energybased cooperation because it's important for us. We would be insane to give it up. But the hungarian position is always based on the hungarian interests, and we don't care if we are criticised for that. We are ready to cooperate with our european partners on all fields, where it's an equal basis of law. We have to do our best, but we want to maintain our sovereign foreign policy, and, actually, ithink in this new world order, more and more countries should do the same. When you talk about and we discussed it at the beginning of this interview this war that you believe has to be fought against the values, the ideology of the liberal elite in brussels, you talk about ukraine being one key, specific factor in all of this, but you also talk about migration. Is hungary determined to continue to violate european law in its pursuit of the toughest antimigration policy? 0r defend european people against illegal migration. No, i'm talking about law at the moment. As you know very well. . . Yeah, yeah, yeah. . . . . The european court has ruled repeatedly that your policies of summarily removing those who try to get into your country to seek asylum, your policy is outandout illegal. Yes. But the problem is with the european law, it has to be changed. But we go back to the point you signed up to this club, you signed up to uphold europe's laws. You can't suddenly decide that the law is illegitimate. Yeah, but why don't we get an optout on the migration policy? and then the european union. . . That's not what you signed up to. Well, denmark can have it and hungary cannot have it. So it's a, it's a technique which exists. . . Sorry. You have to operate under the rules which you signed up to and you're refusing to do so. You are serially violating european law. Are you going to continue that or will you stop? we will keep continue to protect the hungarian people. And i personally and the prime minister and all the rightwing politicians, we will not let hungary down through illegal migration, as it happened with many western countries. We don't want to change our society. We don't want the violation. We don't want a serious mess, what it is in other countries. We try to respect european law, but with all due respect, european union law is not fitting for this problem. It's not good enough. It doesn't help the countries who are protecting its borders. It actually makes our life more miserable. We spend 2 billion euros in the last eight years to defending our borders. It means we kept out hundreds and hundreds of thousands of illegal migrants, kept out. . . Yeah, the european court of human rights has ruled that your treatment of unauthorised migrants has involved arbitrary detention, excessive use of force, and it is a fundamental violation. You're telling me all of that will continue? no. I mean, i'm telling you that we have an effective system, which keeps illegal migrants out. So all those politicians who are saying that it's impossible, they are lying. They are lying to you. They are lying to your voters. It's possible. You just have to stick the regulation. The regulation is very simple. If you don't have the right to enter a territory of the country, we don't let you in. You can apply for asylum from outside, and if the asylum application is decided and you get the green light, then you can enter the country. It's so simple. Imean. . . The funny thing is that this position you take is part of a wider point that viktor 0rban has been making for the last decade, about hungary not needing, not wanting migrants to come into the country. This is what he said in 2016 hungary does not need a single migrant for our economy to work or the population to sustain itself, or for our country to have a great future. Eight years later, today, we see that hungary, because it is short desperately short of labour, is inviting guest workers from a list of 15 noneu countries to come into the country, to come and work on threeyear work visas. You d0 need migrants. You just won't admit it. Again details, details, details. If you look on how hungarian asylum law looks like, or the regulation about the guest workers, it's very tough. It's the toughest in europe. Probably it's more closer to the qatari regulation than to other european countries* regulation, because the idea is if we have hungarians who are willing to take the job, then we don't need migrants. This argumentation, you know, our prime minister's quote, was a reflection on that. It's not acceptable. We don't need migration. We need family. . . Your population is expected to fall from 9. 6 million to 8. 5 million by 2050. You, just like the italian government of giorgia meloni, have had to recognise that, for all your antiimmigrant rhetoric, you need immigrants. No, it's like. . . We need family policy and we need families. . . Your family policy that is, giving tax breaks to mothers who have more than four children, all that sort of thing it hasn't worked. Your birth rate is nowhere near the replacement level for your population.