The PrIme MInIster says he wont allow Health UnIons to block nhs reform. One of brItaIns hIghest Level Trade UnIon leader Is here. WIll MIck Lynch and hIs colleagues play ball wIth labour reforms . Also tonIght, In an exclusIve IntervIew, John Legend on hIs wIfes abortIon, Elon Musk and Donald Trumps claIms that mIgrants eat your pets. He 5 read that mIgrants eat your pets. He spread vIcIous rumours that mIgrants eat your pets. He spread vIcIous rumours about them eatIng cats and dogs, playIng to bIgotry, lIke he always does. Welcome to newsnIght lIve each Week NIght for IntervIews and InsIght. Our exclsuIve IntervIew wIth pop starJohn Legend In a lIttle whIle. Your InsIght TonIght comes from the general secretary of the Rmt UnIon MIck lynch. Ex Snp Mp Hannah bardell. And Lbc Presenter and conservatIve commentator IaIn Dale. And our polItIcal EdItor NIck Watt Is here as always. We have had KeIr Starmer talkIng about reform of the publIc servIces, partIcularly the nhs In england and then he says money wIll come, as a UnIon Leader when you hear a Labour Leader say there wIll be no extra money for the nhs wIthout reforms how do you take that . I money for the nhs wIthout reforms how do you take that . How do you take that . I would be surrIsed how do you take that . I would be surprIsed If how do you take that . I would be surprIsed If they how do you take that . I would be surprIsed If they dont how do you take that . I would be surprIsed If they dont put how do you take that . I would be surprIsed If they dont put any surprIsed If they dont put any money In. They have the WInter Challenge. He money In. They have the WInter Challenge money In. They have the WInter Challenge. We money In. They have the WInter Challenge. We wIlll money In. They have the WInter Challenge. We wIll see, challenge. He saId no. We wIll see, he has been challenge. He saId no. We wIll see, he has been brave challenge. He saId no. We wIll see, he has been brave In challenge. He saId no. We wIll see, he has been brave In hIs challenge. He saId no. We wIll see, he has been brave In hIs terms challenge. He saId no. We wIll see, l he has been brave In hIs terms about the wInter fuel allowance. But you need to know where youre goIng to target the money, If reform Is successful and he brIngs the staff wIth hIm, he may get the results that he wanted. There Is a need for change. I thInk the unIons wIll look at the proposals and see If they can work wIth hIm. But It wIll be a robust conversatIon and from what the bma has saId and other colleagues, there wIll be partnershIps to some extent, but there wIll be push back where there needs to be. Here Is what KeIr Starmer saId. Reporter professor John Bell saId thIs mornIng that doctors and the bma have been a major drag on reformIng Health care. Do you predIct that the bma wIll now embrace ProductIvIty Reform wIth open arms . Well, look, I have saId well do thIs wIth the staff and we wIll. But I know from my old job runnIng the Crown ProsecutIon ServIce that whenever you try to reform anythIng, there wIll be some people, Im afraId, who wIll say, dont do that, It Is better as It Is. I know In my heart of hearts that we wIll meet pockets of people who wIll say, dont do It, slow down, go over there, not over there, leave thIngs as they are. We have to take that on and we wIll take that on. Thats Part And Parcel of the change. So nIck from what he saId, what does It tell us about he he wIll approach publIc sector reform. He It tell us about he he wIll approach publIc sector reform. PublIc sector reform. He belIeves that he Is on publIc sector reform. He belIeves that he Is on a publIc sector reform. He belIeves that he Is on a hIstorIc publIc sector reform. He belIeves that he Is on a hIstorIc mIssIon I publIc sector reform. He belIeves that he Is on a hIstorIc mIssIon to change the way the country Is run. There Is a polItIcal poInt. He belIeves It It 14 years of mIsrule, but he thInks there Is structural problems and westmInster Is out of touch. He belIeves the nhs Is broken and needs reform. In those remarks he was makIng clear that he Is wIllIng to be unpopular. He lIkens the mIssIon wIth the nhs to the mIssIon to reform the labour party. He talked of how there was resIstance, but he saId he drove the changes through. I do have to say It sounded ratherfamIlIar changes through. I do have to say It sounded rather famIlIar to another PrIme MInIster 25 years ago. Lets lIsten to Tony BlaIr In 1999. People In the publIc sector are more rooted In the concept that If Its always been done thIs way, It must always be done thIs way than any L Group of people Ive ever come across. I It Is not that there arent wonderful people In there, wIth a tremendous commItment to publIcl servIce, but you try gettIng change, you know, In the publIc sector and publIc servIces and you know, I bare the scars on my back. So Is KeIr Starmer learnIng from Tony BlaIr who, looked so young there dIdnt he . He Tony BlaIr who, looked so young there dIdnt he . There dIdnt he . He Is a Keen Student of there dIdnt he . He Is a Keen Student of tony there dIdnt he . He Is a Keen Student of Tony BlaIr there dIdnt he . He Is a Keen Student of Tony BlaIr and there dIdnt he . He Is a Keen I Student of Tony BlaIr and sInce there dIdnt he . He Is a Keen Student of Tony BlaIr and sInce he stopped beIng PrIme MInIster and In hIs new book Tony BlaIr saId early on you have polItIcal capItal, but lIttle savvy. At the end of your tIme In offIce, you have lIttle polItIcal capItal, but a lot of knowledge about how to delIver change. The bIg lesson from Tony BlaIr Is you need to understand that and move very, very quIckly. And so we have that message as nIck saId mIck saId Is no extra cash wIthout reform. The conservatIves may say, Is there a mIsmatch wIth what Rachel Reeves saId Injuly when she announced the pay settlements and the conservatIves say they were delIvered wIth no guarantee from the unIons of Increased productIvIty. That what Is the torIes are say. [30 that what Is the torIes are say. Do ou that what Is the torIes are say. Do you thInk there Is a mIsmatch, IaIn Dale . I you thInk there Is a mIsmatch, IaIn Dale . ~ , you thInk there Is a mIsmatch, IaIn Dale . ~ ,. you thInk there Is a mIsmatch, IaIn Dale . ~ , , , dale . I thInk there Is a mIsmatch In the sense that dale . I thInk there Is a mIsmatch In the sense that It dale . I thInk there Is a mIsmatch In the sense that It Is dale . I thInk there Is a mIsmatch In the sense that It Is dIffIcult dale . I thInk there Is a mIsmatch In the sense that It Is dIffIcult to the sense that It Is dIffIcult to turn the sense that It Is dIffIcult to turn around a publIc servIce very fIhhInglx turn around a publIc servIce very fIhhInglx turn around a publIc servIce very fIbbIngly. Very quIckly and Tony BlaIr fIbbIngly. Very quIckly and Tony BlaIr found fIbbIngly. Very quIckly and Tony BlaIr found that. O fIbbIngly. Very quIckly and Tony BlaIr found that. 0 not least If you look blaIr found that. 0 not least If you look at the mInIsters Involved In a lot you look at the mInIsters Involved In a lot of you look at the mInIsters Involved In a lot of publIc servIce departments, theyre very InexperIenced and theIr cIvIl Servants InexperIenced and theIr cIvIl Servants are the same ones that were actIng Servants are the same ones that were actIng wIth Servants are the same ones that were actIng wIth the conservatIves and theIr actIng wIth the conservatIves and theIr natural reactIon Is for the status theIr natural reactIon Is for the status quo. The CIvIl ServIce doesnt status quo. The CIvIl ServIce doesnt partIcularly lIke change. The other doesnt partIcularly lIke change. The other problem that I thInk there Is that the other problem that I thInk there Is that keIr the other problem that I thInk there Is that KeIr Starmer In that speech used Is that KeIr Starmer In that speech used the Is that KeIr Starmer In that speech used the Word Reform I dont know how many used the Word Reform I dont know how many tIme. Reform Is a posItIve word how many tIme. Reform Is a posItIve word. ~ , how many tIme. Reform Is a posItIve word. , how many tIme. Reform Is a posItIve word. ~... word. What about nIgel farage, I dont lIke hIs word. What about nIgel farage, I dont lIke hIs reform. Word. What about nIgel farage, I dont lIke hIs reform. That word. What about nIgel farage, I dont lIke hIs reform. That Is word. What about nIgel farage, I dont lIke hIs reform. That Is a I dont lIke hIs reform. That Is a dIfferent poInt. Dont lIke hIs reform. That Is a dIfferent poInt. But dont lIke hIs reform. That Is a dIfferent poInt. But he dont lIke hIs reform. That Is a dIfferent poInt. But he has dont lIke hIs reform. That Is a j dIfferent poInt. But he has not dont lIke hIs reform. That Is a dIfferent poInt. But he has not saId what that dIfferent poInt. But he has not saId what that means. We havent had a sIngle what that means. We havent had a sIngle polIcy. PolIcy. Wes streetIng Is more sIngle polIcy. PolIcy. Wes streetIng Is more capable of of sellIng message of the dIffIculty of reform and more message of the dIffIculty of reform and more wIllIng to take on the unIons and more wIllIng to take on the unIons that KeIr Starmer Is. So It wIll he unIons that KeIr Starmer Is. So It wIll be InterestIng to watch If dynamIc wIll be InterestIng to watch If d namIc. , wIll be InterestIng to watch If dnamIc. , wIll be InterestIng to watch If dnamIc. dynamIc. Hannah bardell, thIs Is relevant to dynamIc. Hannah bardell, thIs Is relevant to scotland, dynamIc. Hannah bardell, thIs Is relevant to scotland, no dynamIc. Hannah bardell, thIs Is relevant to scotland, no extra I dynamIc. Hannah bardell, thIs Is relevant to scotland, no extra money untIl reform happens. If the reform comes and the money comes that could mean more for scotland. Mean more for scotland. PotentIally. If Is the operatIve mean more for scotland. PotentIally. If Is the operatIve word, mean more for scotland. PotentIally. If Is the operatIve word, Its mean more for scotland. PotentIally. If Is the operatIve word, Its feels If Is the operatIve word, Its feels lIke a If Is the operatIve word, Its feels lIke a contInued If Is the operatIve word, Its feels lIke a contInued austerIty If Is the operatIve word, Its feels| lIke a contInued AusterIty Agenda and two lIke a contInued AusterIty Agenda and two of lIke a contInued AusterIty Agenda and two of the lIke a contInued AusterIty Agenda and two of the key lIke a contInued AusterIty Agenda and two of the key thIngs lIke a contInued AusterIty Agenda and two of the key thIngs that I lIke a contInued AusterIty Agenda I and two of the key thIngs that Lord Darcy and two of the key thIngs that Lord Darcy saId and two of the key thIngs that Lord Darcy saId In and two of the key thIngs that Lord Darcy saId In the and two of the key thIngs that Lord Darcy saId In the report and two of the key thIngs that Lord Darcy saId In the report was and two of the key thIngs that Lord Darcy saId In the report was that L Darcy saId In the report was that chronIc darcy saId In the report was that chronIc UnderfundIng Darcy saId In the report was that chronIc UnderfundIng And Darcy saId In the report was that chronIc UnderfundIng And Lack darcy saId In the report was that chronIc UnderfundIng And Lack ofI chronIc UnderfundIng And Lack of capItal chronIc UnderfundIng And Lack of CapItal SpendIng chronIc UnderfundIng And Lack of CapItal SpendIng and chronIc UnderfundIng And Lack of CapItal SpendIng and austerIty. ChronIc UnderfundIng And Lack of. CapItal SpendIng And AusterIty were two of CapItal SpendIng and austerIty were two of the CapItal SpendIng and austerIty were two of the thIngs CapItal SpendIng and austerIty were two of the thIngs that CapItal SpendIng and austerIty were two of the thIngs that strangled CapItal SpendIng and austerIty were j two of the thIngs that strangled the nhs for two of the thIngs that strangled the nhs for two two of the thIngs that strangled the nhs for two decades. Two of the thIngs that strangled the nhs for two decades. If two of the thIngs that strangled the nhs for two decades. If you two of the thIngs that strangled the nhs for two decades. If you want. Nhs for two decades. If you want change nhs for two decades. If you want change and nhs for two decades. If you want change and reform, nhs for two decades. If you want change and reform, Why Nhs for two decades. If you want change and reform, why would I nhs for two decades. If you want I change and reform, why would you contInue change and reform, why would you contInue wIth change and reform, why would you contInue wIth the change and reform, why would you contInue wIth the same change and reform, why would you contInue wIth the same proposal . I change and reform, why would you I contInue wIth the same proposal . In terms contInue wIth the same proposal . In terms of contInue wIth the same proposal . In terms of unIons, contInue wIth the same proposal . In terms of unIons, thIs contInue wIth the same proposal . In terms of unIons, thIs tough contInue wIth the same proposal . In terms of unIons, thIs tough guy contInue wIth the same proposal . In terms of unIons, thIs tough Guy ActI terms of unIons, thIs tough Guy Act Im terms of unIons, thIs tough Guy Act Im not terms of unIons, thIs tough Guy Act Im not sure terms of unIons, thIs tough Guy Act Im not sure that terms of unIons, thIs tough Guy Act Im not sure that Is terms of unIons, thIs tough Guy Act Im not sure that Is the terms of unIons, thIs tough Guy Act Im not sure that Is the rIght Im not sure that Is the rIght approach Im not sure that Is the rIght approach. We Im not sure that Is the rIght approach. We have Im not sure that Is the rIght approach. We have taken I Im not sure that Is the rIght approach. We have taken anj Im not sure that Is the rIght approach. We have taken an approach In scotland approach. We have taken an approach In scotland where approach. We have taken an approach In scotland where we approach. We have taken an approach In scotland where we Included approach. We have taken an approach In scotland where we Included the In scotland where we Included the unIons In scotland where we Included the unIons In In scotland where we Included the unIons In dIscussIons In scotland where we Included the unIons In dIscussIons and In scotland where we Included the unIons In dIscussIons and We In Scotland where we Included the unIons In dIscussIons and we havej unIons In dIscussIons and we have not lost unIons In dIscussIons and we have not lost a unIons In dIscussIons and we have not lost a Day UnIons In dIscussIons and we have not lost a day to unIons In dIscussIons and we have not lost a day to strIkes unIons In dIscussIons and we have not lost a day to strIkes In not lost a day to strIkes In scotland. Not lost a day to strIkes In scotland, because not lost a day to strIkes In scotland, because we not lost a day to strIkes Inl scotland, because we have not lost a day to strIkes In scotland, because we have Invested In publIc scotland, because we have Invested In publIc sector scotland, because we have Invested In publIc Sector Pay scotland, because we have Invested In publIc Sector Pay and scotland, because we have Invested In publIc Sector Pay and In scotland, because we have Invested In publIc Sector Pay and In engagIng | In publIc Sector Pay and In engagIng and makIng In publIc Sector Pay and In engagIng and makIng sure In publIc Sector Pay and In engagIng and makIng sure It In publIc Sector Pay and In engagIng and makIng sure It Is In publIc Sector Pay and In engagIng and makIng sure It Is there. In publIc Sector Pay and In engagIng and makIng sure It Is there. And makIng sure It Is there. Labour would say they and makIng sure It Is there. Labour would say they have and makIng sure It Is there. Labour would say they have Invested and makIng sure It Is there. Labour would say they have Invested In would say they have Invested In publIc Sector Pay. Taste would say they have Invested In publIc Sector Pay. Would say they have Invested In publIc Sector Pay. We got from BlaIr And Brown was publIc Sector Pay. We got from BlaIr And Brown was pfI publIc Sector Pay. We got from BlaIr And Brown was pfI and publIc Sector Pay. We got from BlaIr And Brown was pfI and many publIc Sector Pay. We got from BlaIr And Brown was pfI and many of publIc Sector Pay. We got from BlaIr And Brown was pfI and many of the | and brown was pfI and many of the structures have faIled from that reform. I dont lIke the Idea that there wIll be a battle between the unIons and the government and the Health ServIce over these changes. Change needs to happen, because the nhs Is not workIng properly. That doesnt mean that the unIons dont want change themselves. I know many Gps, my wIfe worked In a communIty practIce, who want change for the Gps. They have a lIve dIspute. Many of them are exhausted, because theyre underfunded and under paId. If they want to have PreventatIve Health In the communIty, you may get Co OperatIon from the nurses unIons, who want to move stuff Into communIty practIce. It doesnt necessarIly mean If you have a posItIve agenda for change Its wIll be resIsted. It may be welcomed. It may be nhs managers that resIst more may be nhs managers that resIst more Gp May be nhs managers that resIst more. Gp surgerIes, you know a lot about, more. Gp surgerIes, you know a lot about, most more. Gp surgerIes, you know a lot about, most of us want to have the same about, most of us want to have the same Gp about, most of us want to have the same Gp when we go to see a Gp. But so many same Gp when we go to see a Gp. But so manyyou same Gp when we go to see a Gp. But so many you get allocated a random one. So many you get allocated a random one that so many you get allocated a random one. That cant be good for contInuIty of care that. Isnt somethIng that Government MInIsters should somethIng that Government MInIsters should he somethIng that Government MInIsters should be controllIng. That should be should be controllIng. That should he done should be controllIng. That should be done eIther wIthIn the Health ServIce be done eIther wIthIn the Health ServIce or be done eIther wIthIn the Health ServIce or the Gp SurgerIes themselves. It Is rIdIculous If eIther themselves. It Is rIdIculous If eIther KeIr Starmer or Wes StreetIng pretend eIther KeIr Starmer or Wes StreetIng pretend any top down reforms, lIke you talked pretend any top down reforms, lIke you talked wIth the Andrew Lansley reforms, you talked wIth the Andrew Lansley reforms, If you talked wIth the Andrew Lansley