It was a major part of the trumpharris debate. And on thursday, there was a further development in north dakota. A judge struck down the state's near total ban on abortion, saying north dakota's constitution gives women a fundamental right to choose abortion before foetal viability. Elisabeth smith is with the centre for reproductive rights, the organisation that argued on behalf of the plantiffs in north dakota. What is your reaction to the ruling? an incredible ruling and the first time that a state that totally banned abortion in the united states, one of those 14 the united states, one of those 1a states, has seen abortion be reaffirmed as a right under the state constitution. This was not a decision based on voters based on a state constitutional amendment, this was a judge saying no, the north dakota constitution protects the fundamental right to make a decision about bodily autonomy, free from government interference. This is a wonderful day for people of north dakota and across the country. North dakota and across the count. . ,... country. You will be aware that already there _ country. You will be aware that already there has _ country. You will be aware that already there has been already there has been notification that there will be an appeal. Notification that there will be an appeal notification that there will be an appeal. Absolutely and we fully expect _ an appeal. Absolutely and we fully expect appeals an appeal. Absolutely and we fully expect appeals to an appeal. Absolutely and we fully expect appeals to go an appeal. Absolutely and we fully expect appeals to go up| fully expect appeals to go up to the north dakota supreme court of the opinion that the trial courtjudge wrote, as you quoted from, is strong and clearly lays out the case that the north dakota constitution protects the right to choose abortion. D0 protects the right to choose abortion abortion. Do you recognise there is tension _ abortion. Do you recognise there is tension here abortion. Do you recognise i there is tension here between there is tension here between the law as it is seen by this judge and buy some of the state politicians who had voted this law through last year. Absolutely. And we have seen that in north dakota and states across the country. The vast majority of americans support abortion rights and want abortion rights and want abortion had to be legal and accessible. What we have seen in m states where abortion is criminally banned is that politicians are completely out of step with their constituents and, in fact, of step with their constituents and, infact, in many of step with their constituents and, in fact, in many instances it is gerrymandered state legislature that makes this decision, again, out of the step of people living in those states. ~. states. What practical difference _ states. What practical difference do states. What practical difference do you states. What practicall difference do you think states. What practical difference do you think this will make immediately for women in north dakota? we will make immediately for women in north dakota? in north dakota? we have to recognise in north dakota? we have to recognise that _ in north dakota? we have to recognise that there in north dakota? we have to recognise that there was in north dakota? we have toj recognise that there was one abortion clinic in north dakota prior to the dobbs decision which overruled roe the wade. It is no longer in north dakota. What this means is that abortion will be available in hospitals and by certain providers but to restart a clinic and reopen a clinic is a major undertaking. So one of the goals of laws like north dakota is to shut down access by shutting down clinics and sending providers outside the state. Access in the state will be a major undertaking. You state. Access in the state will be a major undertaking. Be a ma'or undertaking. You are aware be a major undertaking. You are aware of how be a major undertaking. You are aware of how political be a major undertaking. You are aware of how political this aware of how political this issue has become, not least during an election campaign. You would have watched the debate on tuesday night. How do you assess the candidates as they work on this issue? i you assess the candidates as they work on this issue? i want to start by _ they work on this issue? i want to start by saying _ they work on this issue? i want to start by saying the _ they work on this issue? i want to start by saying the centre i to start by saying the centre for reproductive rights is an organisation so we do know electioneering. But i think you see two different pictures, very stark pictures of america and voters have a real choice about whether they want to ensure that abortion rights are legal across every state in this country or not. And as we have seen in every poll since dobbs, the vast majority of americans support abortion rights and want abortion care to be legal and accessible across the country. To be legal and accessible across the country. And what do ou sa across the country. And what do you say to _ across the country. And what do you say to the across the country. And what do you say to the argument across the country. And what do you say to the argument made i across the country. And what do | you say to the argument made by donald trump that some of his supporters that this should be a matter decided at the state level? ~ u, a matter decided at the state level? ~. ,. level? we can only look at the limitations _ level? we can only look at the limitations on _ level? we can only look at the limitations on voting level? we can only look at the limitations on voting rights, i limitations on voting rights, the limitations on democracy and the gerrymandering of state legislature in states like my home state of texas to really demonstrate that that is not possible. The vast majority of texans, for example, support abortion rights but texas currently has one of the most draconian abortion bands that if you violate you could potentially face 99 years in prison, criminalfines, et cetera. So texans have no avenue to affect what the law is on abortion in their state. So it is only a new federal right only through a statute or a constitutional amendment that will ensure everyone across the country can access abortion care where they live. The next issue we're going to turn to is the level of crime in the us. This came up in the debate and in the fallout from the debate. Here's merlyn thomas from bbc verify. Trump has been going hard on crime, particularly, kamala harris *s record on it and this came to head on the presidential debate when he said that crime was going through the roof and the news moderator picked up on this and challenged him. challenged him. Crime here is u. Challenged him. Crime here is u and challenged him. Crime here is up and through _ challenged him. Crime here is up and through the _ challenged him. Crime here is up and through the roof challenged him. Crime here is up and through the roof to up and through the roof to sport up and through the roof to sport their fraudulent statements they made, crime in this country through the roof and we this country through the roof and we have a new form of crime called _ and we have a new form of crime called migrant crime and it is happening at levels that nobody thought happening at levels that nobody thought possible. The happening at levels that nobody thought possible. thought possible. The fbi has said overall _ thought possible. The fbi has said overall violent _ thought possible. The fbi has said overall violent crime thought possible. The fbi has said overall violent crime is i said overall violent crime is coming _ said overall violent crime is coming down _ said overall violent crime is coming down in _ said overall violent crime is coming down in this said overall violent crime is. Coming down in this country. The coming down in this country. The thing _ coming down in this country. The thing is _ coming down in this country. The thing is they coming down in this country. The thing is they are coming down in this country. The thing is they are both. The thing is they are both referring to different datasets. From's figures are correct, they are correct according to the national crime stats that were published today on thursday after the debate on tuesday. And the figures that the abc news moderator was referring to are those published by fbi. They only include crimes reported to law enforcement. include crimes reported to law enforcement. You and i are both art of enforcement. You and i are both part of bbc enforcement. You and i are both part of bbc verify _ enforcement. You and i are both part of bbc verify am _ enforcement. You and i are both part of bbc verify am one enforcement. You and i are both part of bbc verify am one of part of bbc verify am one of the challenges when we take on an issue like this is that there are many different sources of data and information on any given policy issue. Exactly and we have been looking through the differences in the datasets and the nuances they come with. The figures are donald trump quoted are based on numbers that are on a nationwide survey of victims of crime, including people who may not have reported through the police and it is important to say, as well, it includes 2020 which was a covid year so, remember, we do not know what that would have done to the opportunities for crime in that year as well. And it must be said that 2023 rate of violent crime was higher than those of 2020 and 2021 stop and they also say it was not statistically different to that of five years ago in 2019. Crime and abortion were two of many issus that came up during tuesday's debate. But let's try and understand which issues matter the most to voters. Anthony salvanto is polling director at our us news partners, cbs. It is easy to look at the headline national polls but there is so much detailed in there is so much detailed in the exam. Let's start with what your understanding is of the major factors that decide which toys the voters make. Toys the voters make. Good evening toys the voters make. Good evening. The _ toys the voters make. Good evening. The two _ toys the voters make. Good evening. The two you toys the voters make. Good evening. The two you have | toys the voters make. Good evening. The two you have been talking to our important but i want to start with and i will show you this, it is inflation and the economy, something that most voters do say is a major factor and, most voters do say is a major factorand, in most voters do say is a major factor and, in fact, most voters do say is a major factorand, infact, one most voters do say is a major factor and, in fact, one of the reasons this race is so close is for those who say not only that inflation is a major factor in their vote but also that they feel their income is not keeping pace with inflation, they tend to be voting for donald trump in large measures. 0ne voting for donald trump in large measures. One of the reasons, if we unpack that, is that when we ask people how do you remember the economy when donald trump was in president, frankly they are looking back past covid to the precovid times and they say they remember it as good. So that is one of the factors that is underpinning a lot of his standing in the polls. Inflation, the economy and the retrospective feeling that the economy was better when he was president. I economy was better when he was resident. . economy was better when he was resident. . . . ,. president. I am curious, do these major _ president. I am curious, do these major factors president. I am curious, do these major factors vary i these major factors vary according to whether a voter is likely to vote republican or democrat? likely to vote republican or democrat? they do. In fact, republicans _ democrat? they do. In fact, republicans are _ democrat? they do. In fact, republicans are even democrat? they do. In fact, republicans are even morel republicans are even more likely to say that not only was the economy a fact but that the economy is not good and part of thatis economy is not good and part of that is the partisanship wrapped up and we see that a lot around campaigns but let me point out something that is pushing back against that a little bit and i will show it to you here on the screen. That is what happens when abortion and reproductive rights are set to be a majorfactor in people's vote. You see these numbers, you get very sizeable margins who then say they will vote for harris based on that issue. Again, to your larger point it is a combination of factors and at some point in the campaign you see that back and forth about what people should decide based upon and notjust should decide based upon and not just what their vote is and thatis not just what their vote is and that is one of those factors that is one of those factors that helps out harris right now. I that helps out harris right now. . that helps out harris right now. . .. ,~ that helps out harris right now. . .. i. That helps out harris right now. . ... now. I want to ask you a question _ now. I want to ask you a question that _ now. I want to ask you a question that i now. I want to ask you a question that i am now. I want to ask you a question that i am sure | now. I want to ask you a i question that i am sure you asked a lot because there is a focus crucial swing states. How do things look in michigan, pennsylvania and wisconsin? tight, close even. You could unpack, put your words and that it is for all of that. I will show those states in particular and this is what i mean by even. I was point out to people that you see estimates like this and remember that all of these are within the margin of error, all of these are highly dependent on what you classify as a likely voter and preferences are very tight and locked in at this point but there is some variance and who may actually show up to vote and that explains a lot of what you see in the campaign were oftentimes you see in the campaigns, they talk to some of their base voters because they want to motivate them. In fact, one of the real interesting dynamics that has gotten this race to be so close versus when joe biden was the nominee or going to be the nominee for the democrats, is that there has been a surge in democratic enthusiasm since harris became the nominee. They have increasingly been saying that they are likely to turn out and that has matched the republican enthusiasm and again there is another big factor behind that tight race. Another big factor behind that tiuht race. . another big factor behind that tight race tight race. One more thing i want to ask _ tight race. One more thing i want to ask you, _ tight race. One more thing i want to ask you, in tight race. One more thing i want to ask you, in 2016 i tight race. One more thing i | want to ask you, in 2016 and tight race. One more thing i i want to ask you, in 2016 and in 2020 pollsters had difficulty assessing support for donald trump and frequently underestimated his support. Assumedly the polling industry has looked at its approach to try and make sure that does not happen this time? i try and make sure that does not happen this time? happen this time? i always emphasise _ happen this time? i always emphasise two _ happen this time? i always emphasise two things. I happen this time? i always| emphasise two things. One happen this time? i always i emphasise two things. One is to look at the statebystate polls and i think one of the things about 2016 is that a lot of people were looking at the national race which, quite frankly, at least from our point of view, al polling, was spot on but in the states you had donald trump winning the electoral college, that statebystate contest, even state bystate contest, even though statebystate contest, even though hillary clinton won the national popular vote. I think now there is better communication about the fact that this is decided statebystate and i will keep emphasising that. Number two, it goes back again to turn out stop when you look at polls and look at the ones that talk about the likely voters because, quite frankly, it is that smaller percentage of people who may be on the fence about whether or not to turn out, pollsters always wrestle with looking at that behavioural aspect of this stop will they will not show up, frankly? campaigns do too. And thatis frankly? campaigns do too. And that is something that when you see the measures you know that there will be variance in the and when you hear that cliche about it all coming down to turn out, that is what you see in the polling, and that as we see small shifts in polling and thatis see small shifts in polling and that is what you see this year. Looking at