Minister amin salam in beirut, minister amin salam in beirut, welcome to hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk. In gaza, through diplomatic thank you, stephen. Thank you, stephen. Pleasure being with you. Pleasure being with you. Thank you forjoining me. Thank you forjoining me. War is happening to lebanon, war is happening to lebanon, minister, and yet war minister, and yet war is the last thing that is the last thing that lebanon wants. Lebanon wants. How does that make how does that make you feel right now? you feel right now? you said it, stephen. You said it, stephen. It's the last thing we need. It's the last thing we need. It's the last thing we would it's the last thing we would have wanted to happen have wanted to happen and we were hoping and praying and we were hoping and praying and doing our best for the past and doing our best for the past year, since the war started year, since the war started in gaza, through diplomatic channels, through every channel possible, to avoid going into a fullblown war that lebanon today is paying a very, very heavy price. The people of lebanon are paying a very heavy price. The economy of lebanon is paying a very heavy price, but it's a fact, we are in war. I believe it's still containable. I think this war needs to stop immediately, and i'm hoping that the discussions going on in new york today, tomorrow and the days to come will be able to really put an immediate end to this war, because lebanon cannot bear another day of this war. You understand, i guess, when prime minister benjamin netanyahu says, this is not a war against the people of lebanon, it is a war against the armed militants, as he would put it, terrorists of hezbollah. I guess you understand that. Honestly, i don't understand anything that neta nyahu is saying. I actually am. . . All i understand is i'm seeing hundreds of people dying. The people of lebanon see it. Yeah. We'll come back to hezbollah*s particular role in this and your relationship with hezbollah in a minute, but let's just get into the detail of how your country is coping or not coping. Your health ministerjust a few hours ago described the situation as carnage and the secretary general of the norwegian refugee council, jan egeland, who's a former un official, he said, lebanese society is going to break if there is no ceasefire. Are you as close to the edge as that? yes, we are as close to the edge as that, stephen. I mean, as a government, even our emergency committee, we are doing our best and we are trying to secure, you know, the utmost attention and care to the people that are moving from the south and bekaa into the cities and into beirut. But we all know that the government and the economic situation does not help a lot, because we are in a difficult place and without the international aid, without the full international aid and support of all countries, all donors, yes, we are at a very difficult spot, even though we're still holding so far. But that's why i'm emphasising we do need an immediate end to this war, because we cannot tolerate and we cannot handle longer. Do you believe it is the right thing for people to do in the south of lebanon, to get out, to hit that road and try to head north to beirut and beyond? absolutely. I mean, we've been receiving and collecting data and news that entire villages, entire cities in the north, particularly across the border, have been destroyed completely, have been levelled with the ground, and that's no joke. That's nojoke, stephen. It's serious. And people are fleeing for their lives. They're leaving everything behind them to save their lives. Yeah, you mean. . . . When you. . . You mean in the south? villages in the south of lebanon clearly have been targeted, but. . . Villages in the south and the bekaa. Today, we have witnessed a wider, you know, attack, even on the area, in many areas in the bekaa that did not happen before. So if you think it's the right thing for people to move, where are they going to go? i'm mindful that your country has roughly 1. 5 million displaced people already palestinians, syrian refugees. Now you've got. . . It must be, given the last 48 hours, at least 150,000 people who've moved because of israeli strikes. Where are they going to go? well, i mean, you put the finger on where it hurts, stephen. Today, people are going everywhere. We have people sleeping under bridges. In their cars. Even though the government's, you know, emergency plan has opened, you know, a couple of hundred schools and facilities owned by the government, but they are full. Every place is full. You have people now trying to get into, you know, buildings that are abandoned, get into hotels, get into furnished apartments. I mean, as bad. . . It is as bad as it can get. Now, let's get back to what we began as a discussion about hezbollah inside lebanon. I guess you would agree that every nation has a fundamental right to selfdefence, yes? absolutely. Every nation does have this right. And israel, israel has that right. So when we have seen, since october 7th last year, hezbollah launching rocket attack upon rocket attack into northern israel, displacing upwards of 5060,000 civilian israelis from their settlements and villages close to the lebanese border, israel has an absolute right to protect those people and do what it must to secure the border area. But, stephen, let me clarify something very, very critical in this approach. When the israeli government came out and said, we are going to attack lebanon in order to take preliminary measures that we are not attacked, that alone was a statement that showed that israel took this decision to attack lebanon and kill 500 people overnight in less than 2a hours, to make sure that they will not be attacked. Well, hang on, minister. . . So, they admitted that. . . . . Are you suggesting that israel should wait until major mass casualty events as a result of hezbollah rockets before it tries to stop those rockets being fired? that seems a strange logic. No, no, i'm not saying they should wait, but they should not turn lebanon into another gaza just because they are assuming that, you know, hezbollah*s going to bomb their cities and their countries. Again, as i said, every country has the right to defend itself. But they committed, you know, a massive, massive crime against lebanon by, first of all, bombing 4,000 people that were in supermarkets, that were in schools, that were in their homes with their kids again, under the assumption that it's a preliminary act of defence. . . With the greatest of respect, it's notjust some sort of assumption plucked out of the air. There have been 8,000, roughly 8,000 rocket attacks fired since october 7th last year by hezbollah into israeli territory. And every independent military analyst who has looked at hezbollah*s stockpile of weaponry says that they have well over 100,000 rockets and other missiles in storage, which they, it seems, at some point or other, are intent at firing into israel. Well, yes, i do understand that piece, stephen, but we have been trying, as a government, even though, you know, hezbollah is a member of this government, they are a member of the parliament, we have been working under what they call, you know, the war conditions, or the war calculations to keep things after control, you know, under control for the past year. And both sides were picking where they hit and when they hit, and how they get back at each other. We were trying to contain it, and the lebanese government said, all we want is to have a complete, you know. . . You know we want to comply with 1701. We're still asking for complete execution of 1701. We're asking hezbollah as well to comply with 1701. But, minister. . . But then, all of a sudden, when we had this escalation, things went out of control. I mean, we as a government even couldn't, you know, tell hezbollah and tell the people, and tell everyone else that after the escalation, you know, you need to keep things consistent with the agreement, as to how everybody is retaliating on both sides. But, minister, you have to make a choice here. Either you are a completely helpless bystander, or you, as a government, have to show some sort of agency. Because you've mentioned un security resolution 1701 now, that obviously was drawn up after the 2006 war involving israel and the south of lebanon, and it was supposed to ensure that armed hezbollah militants withdraw to the other side of the litani river. And your state, lebanese armed forces should move into that southern territory and work alongside the un peacekeepers. Well, none of that has happened, and ultimately, you, as a representative of the government and the state, have to take responsibility for failing to implement that security council resolution. Well, i mean, we have been working our diplomatic channels, stephen, for the past year, we have been pushing, i mean, you know, the us, amos hochstein has been coming several times. The french have been coming to lebanon. I mean, we have been working every diplomatic channel to be able to get a resolution. Unfortunately, the escalation and the intention to keep the war going, to execute, you know, israel's agenda didn't help. I mean, we have seen what happened in gaza. Gaza is totalled to the ground, and nothing changed. And the discussions for a ceasefire even didn't get anywhere. We were next in line. Lebanon was next in line. We knew this was coming. We knew the negotiations will be tough. But most importantly, stephen, i agree with you. We need, as a government and our prime minister went yesterday to new york we need, as a government, to push very hard in the big kitchen now, with all the cooks in new york, to stop this war and get to full compliance with 1701 despite what anybody else wants. I mean, it's a time where we need a patriotic decision. And i agree with you, our government needs to have a firm position. . . But. . . . . Our prime minister in new york will have this position shared with the international community, that we want this full execution of 1701, and we need to make it happen, whatever it takes. We cannot bear another week of the misery and the pain that lebanon has been going through. What you've just said is very interesting, so be straight with me. Are you telling me that you, as a significant senior member of the lebanese government, you call upon and you want, and you insist on hezbollah withdrawing to the north side of the litani river, as was agreed under the un security council resolution 1701. You want that to happen, do you? you are no longer prepared to tolerate hezbollah fighters right next door to israel in that border area? we absolutely want the full compliance of 1701. We want the resolution, and we want the full commitment of lebanon with all of the international decisions, because it has proved, it has proved that we have no other good destiny for lebanon, rather than to comply with this. However, what i say is we need fair conditions for lebanon. We need lebanon to be on the safe side, and we need the international community to show full support for post, er. . . Post, er, you know, execution of the 1701 because. . . But, hang on, let'sjust unpick this a little bit, minister. Your fundamental problem is that hezbollah is not listening to you, hasn't listened to you for many years, and takes its money, its arms, and its instructions from tehran, from iran. So, it doesn't really matter whether you want those armed militants out of your southern territory. What matters is what iran wants and at the moment, it seems iran has no intention of telling those militants to leave your southern territory. Absolutely no intention. I mean, we heard what the iranian president had to say. The iranian president doesn't want a fullblown war, and he sent very clear messages to hezbollah, and to everybody that we are looking for a peaceful resolution and we don't want to escalate. That's what we're trying to bank on. We're trying to bank on that all the big players today, including iran, the united states, france, the european union, everybody, the arab countries, everybody is pushing towards that peaceful resolution. The region cannot tolerate it. Having an unstable lebanon with an unstable palestine, with an unstable iraq, unstable syria today is a catastrophe on the entire region. Let me ask. . . And it will affect the region for decades to come. Let me ask you this, and you're a longtime observer of the security situation, even though you're minister of economy. Do you feel that hezbollah has been severely weakened by a series of grievous blows in the last days and weeks? we saw the pretty extraordinary operation and it seems israel did it, even though they haven't actually admitted it by boobytrapping all those electronic devices, the walkietalkies, and the pagers. We've seen targeted killings of very senior hezbollah leaders in the field, and in beirut, we see the laserguided bombs taking out what appear to be weapons stores in the south of lebanon. To quote one security expert in this country, shashankjoshi, he says, recent events show hezbollah both severely weakened and very badly penetrated. Is that the way the lebanese people see it? well, to be quite honest, stephen, i believe, i mean, following. . . I am not a security expert, i'm a good political observer for many, many years on lebanon and the middle east. And now, as minister of economy, i can tell you, i can tell you that even hezbollah leadership in the news, they said, they said that they have been severely, severely affected. And it was very obvious in all channels, in all announcements that came out that there was a big security breach, intelwise, after the pagers issue. It has penetrated hezbollah in a very big way and definitely hurt them in a very big way. But to be honest with you, we, as a government, even, we don't know exactly, you know, the amount or the capabilities, or the number of rockets or ammunition that hezbollah still have, you know, that they can work with. But have they been severely injured? have they been penetrated? yes it's all over the news. I mean, they said that. And do you think that perception is partly responsible for what we've seen on social media and news channels in recent days, which is some communities, particularly in the south, druze communities, i've seen christian communities saying quite openly and explicitly to hezbollah fighters, get out of our villages! we do not want this. If you are here, we will be destroyed, go! is there a mind shift, do you think, in your country? look, stephen, i mean, there are a lot of people there are a lot of people, even in the south, even in the bekaa that have been very, very, very against what happened. They didn't want the war. They have been praying day and night that they will not witness yet again another destruction of their homes, of theirfamilies, of their areas, and they have to go through the hell they are going through now. We do hear it in the street, we do feel it people are tired, lebanon is tired. And again, i tell you, the momentum on the street now, whether it's from the people, whether it's from the politicians, is that that war needs to end. And today, the speaker of the house said that he's having serious discussions, particularly with the united states, for the next 2a hours. There needs to be a serious decision taken. Otherwise, we will be going through a difficult war that might take time, and we don't want to see lebanon really going into the same path that gaza went to. You probably have seen, as i have, that, in the last few hours, there have been reports from israel's northern border of new reserve units being sent to the very far north of israel. We know the defence minister visited troops there recently, which perhaps is another sign. The un