First time for hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. Israels intensifying Military Assault on lebanon has involved everything from Booby Trapped electronic devices to bunker busting bombs. As the Death Toll mounts, prime Minister Netanyahu says the target isnt the people of lebanon, its the armed militant group hezbollah, which continues to fire rockets into israel. So what, if anything, can the lebanese Government do to stave off a Gaza Style Catastrophe . My guest is lebanons economy minister, Amin Salam. Is his Government the very definition of powerless . Minister Amin Salam in beirut, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you, stephen. Pleasure being with you. Thank you forjoining me. War is happening to lebanon, war is happening to lebanon, minister, and yet war minister, and yet war is the last thing that is the last thing that lebanon wants. Lebanon wants. How does that make how does that make you feel right now . You feel right now . You said it, stephen. You said it, stephen. Its the last thing we need. Its the last thing we need. Its the last thing we would its the last thing we would have wanted to happen have wanted to happen and we were hoping and praying and we were hoping and praying is paying a very heavy price, and doing our best for the past and doing our best for the past year, since the war started year, since the war started in gaza, through diplomatic in gaza, through diplomatic channels, through every channels, through every channel possible, to avoid channel possible, to avoid Going into a full blown war Going into a full blown war that Lebanon Today is paying that Lebanon Today is paying a very, very heavy price. A very, very heavy price. The people of lebanon the people of lebanon are paying a very heavy price. Are paying a very heavy price. The economy of lebanon the economy of lebanon is paying a very heavy price, but its a fact, we are in war. I believe its still containable. I think this war needs to stop immediately, and im hoping that the discussions Going on in New York today, today with no food, no shelter, and very difficult circumstances and explosions all over the country. Thats all we see today, stephen. Its unprecedented whats happening in lebanon. You know, in the war of 2006, within a month, you had a couple of hundred people dead. Today, youre having over 600 people killed in less than 2a hours. So it is a full blown, you know, attack on lebanon. Thats the only way i can see it. The people of lebanon see it. Yeah. Well come back to hezbollah s particular role in this and your relationship with hezbollah in a minute, but lets just get into the detail of how your country is coping or not coping. Your Health Ministerjust a few hours aGo described the situation as carnage and the Secretary General of the norwegian refugee council, jan egeland, whos a former un official, he said, Lebanese Society is Going to break if there is no ceasefire. Are you as Close To The Edge as that . Yes, we are as Close To The Edge as that, stephen. I mean, as a Government, even our emergency committee, we are doing our best and we are trying to secure, you know, the utmost Attention And Care to the people that are moving from the South And Bekaa into the cities and into beirut. But we all know that the Government and the economic situation does not help a lot, because we are in a difficult place and without the international aid, without the full international Aid And Support of all countries, all donors, yes, we are at a very difficult spot, even though were still holding so far. But thats why im emphasising we do need an immediate end to this war, because we cannot tolerate and we cannot handle longer. Do you believe it is the right thing for people to do in the south of lebanon, to get out, to hit that road and try to head north to Beirut And Beyond . Absolutely. I mean, weve been receiving and collecting data and news that entire villages, entire cities in the north, particularly across the border, have been destroyed completely, have been levelled with the ground, and thats no joke. Thats nojoke, stephen. Its serious. And people are fleeing for their lives. Theyre leaving everything behind them to save their lives. Yeah, you mean. When you. You mean in the south . Villages in the south of lebanon clearly have been targeted, but. Villages in the south and the bekaa. Today, we have witnessed a wider, you know, attack, even on the area, in many areas in the bekaa that did not happen before. So if you think its the right thing for people to move, where are they Going to Go . Im mindful that your country has roughly 1. 5 million displaced people already palestinians, syrian refugees. Now youve Got. It must be, given the last 48 hours, at least 150,000 people whove moved because of israeli strikes. Where are they Going to Go . Well, i mean, you put the finger on where it hurts, stephen. Today, people are Going everywhere. We have people sleeping under bridges. We have people sleeping in their cars. Even though the Governments, you know, Emergency Plan has opened, you know, a couple of hundred schools and facilities owned by the Government, but they are full. Every place is full. You have people now trying to get into, you know, buildings that are abandoned, get into hotels, get into furnished apartments. I mean, as bad. It is as bad as it can get. Now, lets get back to what we began as a discussion about hezbollah inside lebanon. I guess you would agree that every nation has a fundamental right to self defence, yes . Absolutely. Every nation does have this right. And israel, israel has that right. So when we have seen, since October 7th last year, Hezbollah Launching Rocket attack upon Rocket Attack into northern israel, displacing upwards of 50 60,000 Civilian Israelis from their settlements and villages close to the lebanese border, israel has an absolute right to protect those people and do what it must to secure the Border Area. But, stephen, let me clarify something very, very critical in this approach. When the israeli Government came out and said, we are Going to attack lebanon in order to take preliminary measures that we are not attacked, that alone was a statement that showed that israel took this decision to attack lebanon and kill 500 people overnight in less than 2a hours, to make sure that they will not be attacked. Well, hang on, minister. So, they admitted that. Are you suggesting that israel should wait until major Mass Casualty events as a result of hezbollah rockets before it tries to stop those rockets being fired . That seems a strange logic. No, no, im not saying they should wait, but they should not turn lebanon into another gaza just because they are assuming that, you know, hezbollah s Going to bomb their cities and their countries. Again, as i said, every country has the right to defend itself. But they committed, you know, a massive, massive crime against lebanon by, first of all, bombing 4,000 people that were in supermarkets, that were in schools, that were in their homes with their kids again, under the assumption that its a preliminary act of defence. With the greatest of respect, its notjust some sort of assumption plucked out of the air. There have been 8,000, roughly 8,000 Rocket Attacks fired since October 7th last year by hezbollah into israeli territory. And every independent Military Analyst who has looked at hezbollah S Stockpile of weaponry says that they have well over 100,000 rockets and other missiles in storage, which they, it seems, at some point or other, are intent at firing into israel. Well, yes, i do understand that piece, stephen, but we have been trying, as a Government, even though, you know, hezbollah is a member of this Government, they are a member of the parliament, we have been working under what they call, you know, the war conditions, or the War Calculations to keep things after control, you know, under control for the past year. And both sides were picking where they hit and when they hit, and how they get back at each other. We were trying to contain it, and the lebanese Government said, all we want is to have a complete, you know. You know we want to comply with 1701. Were still asking for complete execution of 1701. Were asking hezbollah as well to comply with 1701. But, minister. But then, all of a sudden, when we had this escalation, things went out of control. I mean, we as a Government even couldnt, you know, Tell Hezbollah and tell the people, and tell everyone else that after the escalation, you know, you need to keep things consistent with the agreement, as to how everybody is retaliating on both sides. But, minister, you have to make a choice here. Either you are a completely helpless bystander, or you, as a Government, have to show some sort of agency. Because youve mentioned un Security Resolution 1701 now, that obviously was drawn up after the 2006 war involving israel and the south of lebanon, and it was supposed to ensure that armed hezbollah militants withdraw to the other side of the litani river. And your state, Lebanese Armed Forces should move into that southern Territory And Work alongside the un peacekeepers. Well, none of that has happened, and ultimately, you, as a representative of the Government and the state, have to take responsibility for failing to implement that Security Council Resolution. Well, i mean, we have been working our diplomatic channels, stephen, for the past year, we have been pushing, i mean, you know, the us, Amos Hochstein has been coming several times. The french have been coming to lebanon. I mean, we have been working every diplomatic channel to be able to get a resolution. Unfortunately, the escalation and the intention to keep the war Going, to execute, you know, Israels Agenda didnt help. I mean, we have seen what happened in gaza. Gaza is totalled to the ground, and nothing changed. And the discussions for a ceasefire even didnt get anywhere. We were next in line. Lebanon was next in line. We knew this was coming. We knew the neGotiations will be tough. But most importantly, stephen, i agree with you. We need, as a Government and our Prime Minister went yesterday to New York we need, as a Government, to push very hard in the big kitchen now, with all the cooks in New York, to stop this war and get to full compliance with 1701 despite what anybody else wants. I mean, its a time where we need a patriotic decision. And i agree with you, our Government needs to have a firm position. But. Our Prime Minister. Our Prime Minister in New York will have in New York will have this position shared this position shared with the international with the international community, that we want this community, that we want this full execution of 1701, full execution of 1701, and we need to make it and we need to make it happen, whatever it takes. Happen, whatever it takes. We cannot bear another week we cannot bear another week of the misery and the pain that of the misery and the pain that lebanon has been Going through. Lebanon has been Going through. As was agreed under the un what youve just said what youve just said is very interesting, is very interesting, so be straight with me. So be straight with me. Are you telling me that you, are you telling me that you, as a significant senior member as a significant senior member of the lebanese Government, of the lebanese Government, you call upon and you want, you call upon and you want, and you insist on hezbollah and you insist on hezbollah withdrawing to the North Side withdrawing to the North Side of the litani river, of the litani river, as was agreed under the un Security Council Resolution 1701. You want that to happen, do you . You are no longer prepared to tolerate hezbollah fighters right next door to israel in that Border Area . We absolutely want the full compliance of 1701. We want the resolution, and we want the full and takes its money, its arms, and its instructions from tehran, from iran. So, it doesnt really matter whether you want those armed militants out of your southern territory. What matters is what iran wants and at the moment, it seems iran has no intention of telling those militants to leave your southern territory. Absolutely no intention. I mean, we heard what the iranian president had to say. The iranian president doesnt want a full blown war, and he sent very clear messages to hezbollah, and to everybody that we are looking for a peaceful resolution and we dont want to escalate. Thats what were trying to Bank On. Were trying to Bank On that all the big players today, including iran, the united states, france, the european union, everybody, the arab countries, everybody is pushing towards that peaceful resolution. The region cannot tolerate it. Having an unstable lebanon with an unstable palestine, with an unstable iraq, unstable Syria Today is a catastrophe on the entire region. Let me ask. And it will affect the region for decades to come. Let me ask you this, and youre a long time observer of the security situation, even though youre minister of economy. Do you feel that hezbollah has been severely weakened by a series of grievous blows in the last days and weeks . We saw the pretty extraordinary operation and it seems israel did it, even though they havent actually admitted it by booby trapping all those electronic devices, the walkie talkies, and the pagers. Weve seen targeted killings of very senior hezbollah leaders in the field, and in beirut, we see the Laser Guided Bombs taking out what appear to be Weapons Stores in the south of lebanon. To quote one Security Expert in this country, shashankjoshi, he says, recent events show hezbollah both severely weakened and very badly penetrated. Is that the way the lebanese people see it . Well, to be quite honest, stephen, i believe, i mean, following. I am not a Security Expert, im a Good political observer for many, many years on lebanon and the middle east. And now, as minister of economy, i can tell you, i can tell you that even hezbollah leadership in the news, they said, they said that they have been severely, severely affected. And it was very obvious in all channels, in all announcements that came out that there was a big security breach, intel wise, after the pagers issue. It has penetrated hezbollah in a very big way and definitely hurt them in a very big way. But to be honest with you, we, as a Government, even, we dont know exactly, you know, the amount or the capabilities, or the number of rockets or ammunition that hezbollah still have, you know, that they can work with. But have they been severely injured . Have they been penetrated . Yes its all over the news. I mean, they said that. And do you think that perception is partly responsible for what weve seen on Social Media and News Channels in recent days, which is some communities, particularly in the south, druze communities, ive seen christian communities saying quite openly and explicitly to hezbollah fighters, get out of our villages we do not want this. If you are here, we will be destroyed, Go is there a mind shift, do you think, in your country . Look, stephen, i mean, there are a lot of people there are a lot of people, even in the south, even in the bekaa that have been very, very, very against what happened. They didnt want the war. They have been praying Day And Night that they will not witness yet again another destruction of their homes, of theirfamilies, of their areas, and they have to Go through the hell they are Going through now. We do hear it in The Street, we do feel it people are tired, lebanon is tired. And again, i tell you, the momentum on The Street now, whether its from the people, whether its from the politicians, is that that war needs to end. And today, the Speaker Of The House said that hes having serious discussions, particularly with the united states, for the next 2a hours. There needs to be a serious decision taken. Otherwise, we will be Going through a difficult war that might take time, and we dont want to see lebanon really Going into the same path that gaza went to. You probably have seen, as i have, that, in the last few hours, there have been reports from israels northern border of new Reserve Units being sent to the very far north of israel. We know the Defence Minister visited troops there recently, which perhaps is another sign. The un Secretary General has talked about a Ground Invasion by israel as opening up the possibility of transforming lebanon into another gaza. And you have said a full Scale War in lebanon would, in my opinion, as minister of economy, destroy what is left of this nation. So, it sounds to me like you are really, really very Close To The Edge here. I mean, we have seen that happen before, stephen. 1982 israel invaded lebanon. They reached all the way to beirut. And i see today, with the aggression we see, with the decision that has been made by the israeli Government, they are willing to do anything. I mean, they said it very clearly, we are willing to have a full blown invasion to lebanon. And the more we see resistance, the more aggressive we will get. And im not saying that in support of the israeli threats, but they are serious. We have to take them seriously, we have to stop this war now, and we have to let the people of Lebanon Avoid a full blown catastrophe that i can see escalate in the next hours, not in the next days. Isnt one of the tragedies of this situation, minister, that when you say, you know, we could be destroyed, in many ways, lebanon is already a very broken nation. You know, weve discussed before the fact that you dont have a president in place. You havent had a president getting on for two years. Your entire state is already in a state of dysfunction. 80 of your people are living in poverty, according to the world bank. The imf says it Cant Work with you because they need to see a strong Government and a will to reform before they can really engage with you. Im just won