Im pleased to have him back on this program. Lets talk about the daca decision or not decision. Put that into context. He did not do what the republicans wanted him to do. He threw it back to congress. The decision may now come sometime next year and could be a continuing controversy which republicans fear could hurt their reelection in 2018. Speak to that for me. With ad a conversation source who had spoken to trial though trump on friday of last week. This is todays before it was written his decision was made on daca, he was going to resend the program but give the sixmonth window for congress to act. This source came away from the conversation the president convinced his mind was not made up. Something, i cannot speak to whether he generally feels for these kids brought to america through no fault of their own by their parents and shielded temporarily by the Obama Administration or whether he understands the politics and media, the images of him getting rid of this program will be so bad. For one or other reason, he has grappled with this in a way he has not grappled with any other policy decision throughout the first eight months of his administration. He has been very reluctant to resend resend daca. I think it is an open question what happens in six months. I think there is little chance commerce will deal with this because congress cannot do with anything. If trump has to revisit it in six months time, who knows what he will do. We cannot assume he will rescind the program just because he has said he would. Charlie why is he hesitant . In what sense . Charlie to resend it. He is surrounded by people telling him there is a tweet from ivanka before he ran for president celebrating the story of an undocumented immigrant. Some of the people he is closest to our telling him stories of these young children, please protect these children. Trump often talks about what he can and cannot sell. He knows this is a decision that will appeal to his base. But he also knows the news cameras and cable news 24 7 will be rolling on images of Young Americans who have committed no crime being rounded up and sent out of the country. The most heartrending stories will be put on the newspapers he reads every morning. He is aware this is what is inevitable if he does this. He ideally wants to kick this to congress so he does not have to take responsibility for this. It may well in depth on his desk in six months time. Charlie who is urging him to go ahead and rescind it now . Jeff sessions, the attorney general. Relationship will never be what it was, but it effectively died about four months ago or whenever it was that sessions recused himself from overseeing the investigation into the collusion between russia and the trump administration. Sessions has been in the icebox. They have not been talking oneonone. If you saw his face, all you have to do to understand, look at the picture of his face before he did the press conference. He has this boyish grin on his face. Sessions has lived for this. Stephen miller, a senior white house aide, has lived for this. He works for just session. When they worked in the senate to undermine the bipartisan inigration reform, they were a working group with right part where steve bannon was running the plays. They were working together to push stories about illegal immigrant crime. They did whatever they could to kill the legislation. Now it has come full circle. This is why sessions took that job, to do things like rescind daca. Charlie we will have to wait six months and see what congress does . Yeah. I think it is highly unlikely nowress the democrats have a lot more leverage going into december because donald trump has handed everything they want with the threemonth debt ceiling. I assume the democrats will use daca as leverage in negotiations over the debt ceiling or government funding. It remains to be seen whether they will accept the tough Order Protection measures republicans will demand an exchange for what they regard as amnesty. I still think it is a very heavy lift. Charlie where are mcconnell and ryan on this . Ryan particularly has been quite dedicated to immigration reform. He would like to see this codified into law in some way. Again, they will not let anything pass without tough , borderent measures security, everify, things of that nature. Charlie let me turn to the debt deal, are you surprised . Yes and no. Not only was i surprised but all of trumps team was surprised. This outgamed before hand. They were under the impression trump and the administration were moving towards a deal of some description with Mitch Mcconnell and paul ryan. That is what you do when you are a republican president. You deal with your Republican Leaders on capitol hill. Charlie especially when they are in the majority. They are in the majority. As it has been described to me by baltimore people multiple people, inside the oval office, donald trump had a burst of inspiration. Theres a lot that has laid the groundwork for this. On a personal level, he cannot stand Mitch Mcconnell. He is fed up with him. He views him as a failed in her field leader, low energy, thinks he is past his prime. On a personal level, he cannot stand him. Trump has never liked paul ryan. He has viewed him as dorky and disloyal, presented he came out against 10 after the access Hollywood Tape during the campaign. Thawing of falling the relationship but it was never genuine. Trump has been gloating, giddy almost about how he has made ryan and mcconnell squirm. He is rubbing it in their faces. He is talking about this deal with chuck and nancy, sort of parading around this deal he struck with the two Democratic Leaders on capitol hill. Andar as i can establish, desist from multiple conversations with people around the president , this was not preplanned. This was something he saw in the room. He was frustrated with mcconnell. Schumer was playing ball saying how about we do this. Steve mnuchin, the treasury secretary, gave a pitch. Trump cut him off and sided with chuck schumer. Charlie now you have the reaction from the pundits. Some say trump loves the fact a lot of people like the fact he did this. He wants to be loved and he and it mayresponse open the way to the beginning of something new. He has even suggested that. Im always reticent to herald new eras in trump. I have covered him for two years now. He is a daytoday player. He is governed by his impulses and what is required to get him through the next day. There is not a lot of longrange, Strategic Thinking. Im not aware of longrange, Strategic Thinking for a lot of his moves. One thing that has been consistent for 30 years is he adores, needs, has insatiable need for media and positive media attention. He does not mind negative media attention. He just needs attention. But better if it is positive. We know he reads the new york the New York Post every morning. He was getting a rough time after charlotte still charlottesville. Yes, people are mocking him for giving away the house to democrats. Paving the path to bipartisanship. He gets to look like the big National Leader at a time of National Crisis the hurricane. The gets to look above politics. And he is never identified with the republican party. He never felt like a republican. I looked at his inaugural address today. He explicitly is presenting himself as an enemy of congress, running as the antidote to capitol hill. Charlie thank you so much. The pleasure to have you on the program. We will be right back. Stay with us. Charlie the deuce is a new hbo series. The series chronicles the lives s, and prostitutes, pimp Police Officers working around times square in 1971. Here is the trailer. Scary world out here. We could own this street. I dont need you or anybody else. Frankie deals everybody in new york city. We are going to get it and deliver. Everyone against the van. I was you, i would take any offer that moved your ladies off the pavement. Been running women off the streets for a while now. This is not news. We have called out city corruption before. There has been a change. Something about community standards. Apparently, new york has none. Pure innovation. We can turn a dime into a dollar just like that. I want to learn how to make movies. It in europe,ll we can make and sell it here. This is america, right . Theres going to be an opportunity. What am i looking at . The future. When do we start . Charlie joining me now are the creators and executive producers, david simon and george pellicanos. And star, maggie gyllenhaal. James franco will join us in progress, we hope. Where did this idea come from . George and working on a show years ago in new orleans. A guy on the crew had been researching this time in new york and had made contact with a guy who was a mob front on 42nd street, a barman who ran nightclubs and became involved and othersage parlors stuff including early pornographic film. As soon as we heard it, we were like, this sounds gratuitous, i am not sure i want to get involved. But mark was persistent and asked us to meet with the fellow. We did. After about three hours, george and i walked out of that meeting to go smoke a cigarette even though neither one of us smoked. We looked at each other and said we are going to end up doing the show. Charlie is that how you saw it . Yeah, the characters were so rich we could not ignore it. It fit into a lot of things we andinterested in like labor gender politics. The labor aspect of it is in this story the people doing all the work is typically true, get the least out of it. They are not working in a factory this time, but selling their own flesh. That was interesting to us and touched on different themes. Charlie im sure maggie has things she wants to make sure it does and does not do. That was part of every conversation we had from the first time we met. For me, it was interesting because i have never been involved in anything ready script was not written before we began. We had three out of eight, and they were incredibly wellwritten. When you are an actor and read a bunch of scripts, youre getting the best ones. All of a sudden, you read Something Like this and it is exceptional. I had the impression we all wanted to say the same thing. But i did not know it for sure. Charlie what did you want to say . Here is what i will say. I did not know exactly what i wanted to say going in. On an i was interested instinctive level, this woman called to me and the writing called to me. Is goingought, arent right to the center of things playing a sex worker and exploring misogyny . You can explore misogyny from any place. But to play a sex worker who gets involved in porn. And just in general being a woman in relation to sex, making ,oney, to art, your own mind playing a prostitute is an interesting way in. I guess i was a little nervous about it. In 2017, playing a sex worker is a very delicate thing. And we did not know each other. Charlie did you say if this becomes titillating, maybe i will fail . If that is all it is doing and if it is doing it to any point of gratuity. I was worried about it slipping off on either side. If it become. 10 and victorian and preachy, and we can only allude to what are not if he and prostitution are, we dont make it plain and blunt, then we are leaning into pretty woman country of mythologizing and not being direct about what is being sold. On the other hand, if the camera lingers too long or if the point of view is skewed towards gratuity, and you have fallen off the other side of the fence. Landing it was important. Maggie made a point. When she did it, i realized something. She came out with this and i thought that is smart. She saw it, not us. I think george and i were most concerned about not getting caught up in making porn. We saw that is the real criticism of the show we wanted to address and avoid the premise of that. Said something, i should probably let you say it, you basically noticed if somebody starts to become titillated by anything onscreen, and these have become real people. These characters are now fundamentally real and human, and you are now engaged in that dynamic of the acquisition of commodified flesh. That is a point of self reflection for a viewer. Then you are viscerally involved if you are turned on. Why not . Who is not turned on by sex and sexuality . That is fair enough. If you are turned on and have to go home with that person and see them take care of their kids, see what their apartment looks like, see the consequences for that person of the work they do, all of a sudden, you have take have to take responsibility for what just turned you on. Then you are really involved in the show. Charlie this is also about economics. Absolutely. This fellow started telling us the stories, the one thing i heard, as george just put it, labor is the product. You have this industry that had suddenly become street legal, pornography. The laborers are the product. To this day, there is no work. Tion of sex you have this moment where this industry springs rapidly into being and these people are pioneers. The opportunity to make an allegory about unencumbered capitalism to me was really special. Charlie this is a clip in which maggies character is telling a pimp that she does not need his support. Here it is. Self. Ake care of my own as well you should. Are you looking for a date . Iant been nothing but good to her. Where you going, baby . Scary world out here, baby. Cut. L to get all broke or this one girl i knew thought she could handle it herself. I served her a drano cocktail. Are you threatening me . Just the opposite. Im threatening anyone who ever threatened you. Nobody makes money off but me. I dont need you. I dont need anybody else. Save money for me again. Money, money, money, money. Yes, maam. Charlie we welcome james franco. Welcome. We started talking about what the series would be. What brought you to it and tell me about the characters you play. I have a long story about how i was brought to it. Of micebroadway in and men about three and a half years ago. I met with david about a different project i could not do. I said i am your biggest fan. I love the wire. It is my favorite show. Is there anything else in the pipeline . He said i have the show about new york in the 1970s, the rise of pornography. And then he said but, everybody wants to do a show about pornography and they are going to expect sex, you know, gratuitous nudity, all the stuff. I am not going to give it to them. I thought, true. , he is one of the Perfect People to do this show are uninterested in pornography in and of itself. I like to say davids pornography is exposing political corruption. That is like what gets him off. It takes me a long time. 10 or 12 hours of television. [laughter] and i thought, ok, that is great. But what is so great about all of the shows they have done is that they show every different stratum intertwined in whatever subject a are focused on. Charlie always authentic and real. Right. Intote not wanting to get the grittiness of pornography itself, it would have to be part of the show. Fan of grittyas a television and film that would balance out all of the political corruption. It would be a little entertaining along with the [laughter] charlie television is a good place to go for both of you. Yeah, television is where it is at. Television is where the interesting content is. You cannot make an independent movie. You can. I made one this summer and we had nothing. I was literally changing my clothing on the set. We had nothing. Here you have what you need. You can tell really interesting stories. Charlie an hour and a half. I dont think andys story would work in an hour and a half. You would be using shorthand for everything. Now the characters, the arc of , there is no character that cannot be made more human with time. Charlie wider and deeper. Yeah, wider and deeper. The other thing that excited me about this is it was on television. There was a book called difficult men where they laid out what has been called the third golden age of television starting with the sopranos and the wire and shows like that. It became so clear to me. As soon as they started doing fewer episodes because they are on cable or streaming networks, you could spend more money on episodes. The writers were then able to arc a whole season because they were not encumbered with 20 plus episodes a season. They did not have to go episodically. They could plan everything out a season advance or a series in advance as they have done for this series. The other incredible thing which i had never experienced before was we had three scripts, we started to shoot, i know you had lots of ideas of how you wanted to tell the story. I also felt you guys responding to me. It changed. The ideas changed. Who candy was changed. We were having a dialogue and relationship. I felt it really strongly. I have never done that before. I did honorable woman. That was the other television thing. That was written and directed by the same person. We shot it like it was a big movie. We would sometimes shoot episode one episode eight in the same day. It was entirely completed before we started. With this, i felt we were in conversation all the time. Not explicitly, but i would read something that felt in direct relation to the way something had been played. I loved that. That is the way we work. Dont get scared. If you thought about it too much, you have not written the shows yet while you are shooting, you would get shook up. I dont believe in overoutlining a novel either. I like the discovery and the ability to change. We have a destination in mind. There are a lot of things to get there that we want to explore. We brought them in as partners which is also unusual. Charlie as producers. Yeah. Charlie and directing a couple of episodes. You are as well . No, i said hes directing beautifully i think. Charlie if someone said to you, tell me five reasons why the wire was so successful. Good acting, directing, and writing are essential things. What else was it . I think the best stuff at hbo and maybe premium cable in general is about something more than the overt theme. You watch the sopranos. The sopranos is magnificent not because it is a gangster story, it is actually about family. It is about the empty hole at the core of the country, this o space and so, if you are watching it to see who got whacked on sunday night, youre seeing one level of the sopranos. The wire was a critique of this divided america, of the fact that we have two separate americas traveling along the same half, but not really quite connected anymore. Charlie what does the critique induce . Now, for us, right now, it is an opportunity to discuss gender politics, which we have done very little of. As we were filming this, we felt like there was something to be said about the culture of pornography and how it was almost this defining example of unencumbered capitalism. There is an interesting economic