A real yield hogs, we consider the frenzy over the loan market. With a big issue carried Interest Rate risk in the bond market. During the summer, it was almost as if Bond Investors were making another run at treasuries. They wanted to get the 10 year below 2 more more time and it is built on the base of market is never going to grow again, we will not see any fiscal policy, it and they had it completely wrong. The fed is moving towards regaining credibility so investors are, we know what their plan is, we can make investments based on this and you will see people react in. The fed has clearly said this is what we want to do. We want to reload their cannons. Sheett to get the balance down and normalize the frontend of the curve. You see the betting odds on the december hike changed dramatically. Views low inflation as a way to continue with gradual pace. The market thinks fed shouldnt touch rates unless we are at 2 inflation. I believe janet yellen, that the u. S. Economy is time, itning and this has been well signaled and markets will take it in their stride. Joining me today, we have a terrific lineup. Three pros worried about the thisest rate risk and week, other potential fed nominees. Jim king is chief Investment Officer at block rock blackrock. Joining me, the cohead of highyield and at Goldman Sachs. Joining us, mark from timko in newport beach, california. This will be a great reset into the Fourth Quarter this year. Rachel, let me start with you. This is an equity chart. Guy, belsky, and equity you look at the equity quiet there is bond quiet as well. We are at a historic monthly low at the vix. How big a headache is that for you at Goldman Sachs . Rachel we think volatility is due to rise in the course of the next year. It is likely to be the result of the beginning of tapering. We are coming out next week with of title live which is the long and winding road. Global banks will be unwinding, not from the same starting point, but it will begin to tighten financial conditions into next year between the financial tightening conditions and the potential for Political Risk and policy risks, there is likely to be volatility and the spreads will be higher. At timko, the basic idea of hard data, soft data, can we develop a theme . Do we have enough confidence in the path of the hard data . You brought up a good point and the word confidence. If you look at what yellen said he hurt you and a and recent speeches, she is sounding increasingly confident and i think that is because the labor market is doing well in the u. S. , the consumer is healthy, financial conditions are easy, and the Global Economy is doing better than a lot of people expected. This is giving the fed confidence that they can take a step back from this large Balance Sheet. The market has mispriced the fact that the fed will go a little faster than most expect. The market for december is priced at about 60 right now, and cumulatively until the end of next year, less than two rate hikes. You are going to see a little more aggressive fed versus what markets are expect in and therefore, the trend to higher rates is likely and we will likely see the fed move and also other Central Banks over time start to step away from the support for markets. Tom i want to bring this in, published on friday. Really pushes against the fed certitude. The market is greatly overestimating the votes and the commitment to hiking at the fomc, and then he turns within his Research Note and says the next inflation print has to deliver the bounceback to normal inflation. Urgent is it within the fed linkage into the real yield market to finally see actual inflation data, as mark mentions . There was a lot of longterm secular headwinds to sustainable inflation. Inflation is definitely picking up and i agree with marks point. It makes a lot of sense and gives the fed confidence with are, theo where we underlying economy, the labor markets, that they can reduce their Balance Sheet. That being said, there is a lot of aggregate debt in the system that will put longterm headwind on to inflation. They will reduce their Balance Sheet and hike, but at a moderate pace relative to the underlying economy. Important part chart. I am looking at the ferro bloomberg terminal to make us wiser, and i want to go to all three of you. I usually dont do that, but it is so important into the Fourth Quarter. This is the inflationadjusted fed fund yield. Rightischer in the lower corner, looks at an altar economy date of fed that will weigh down on the euro mark. If chairman shows up tomorrow, where are we in the continuum from altra economy date of accommodative to normal . Wei we we will be normalizing and there is a temptation to continue to tighten, even though inflation is not cap present. Yet present. I actually agree with my two copanelists. Tom we have to stop the show, they all agree. We dont do that at bloomberg. Let me go to you, mark. You say this is a fed that will lead the market forward. Rates,re we within the even on the edge of normal. Can i daresay it is 2019 . I think we are headed from percent, but this is really striking and brings up an interesting point. If you look at developed markets in the europe, japan, you have negative real yields out to 10 years in the case of u. K. , europe and japan. This is in sharp contrast to what is happening in emerging markets where inflation is falling in some countries. Their Central Banks are lowering rates. You have centralbank convergence between some in emerging markets and most of the developed world. To be more you want cautious on developed market Interest Rate exposure and if you are going to take interestrate exposure today, have it more in floatingrate form as well as select exposure. The i want to bring up screen right now to give you an example of where mr. Kissel talking about europe different. Here to themera in upper right corner, if that is possible. You have negative yields in switzerland, two year, threeyear, fouryear, sevenyear, nine year, 10 year. Jim, that is how artificial the market is and doesnt suggest a more does it suggest normal fed . We are entering a new phase here post the financial crisis. We had a cycle where everything correlated to one and the central bank and fiscal response came at the same time. To a point where it economies are in different places and there are Different Levels of cyclicality in Different Reasons regions. You have sections of the world acting more regional and you will see volatility below. That said, i think he will see dispersion being high. Whether Different Industries or regions around the world, as they balance the cycle. I do think in a longer period of time where you will have low rates and normal still means low. Tom we heard this week, the idea of Central Banks in different locations in the cycle is key. , i look at the real yield, the nominal yield, where does Goldman Sachs think that dynamic is going . Yield nominaleal yield dynamic going to work out over the next 12 months . All in 20 seconds, can you do it . Press we think they can against each other. Both nominal yields will continue to rise, but we will continue to see some inflation coming through. We are believers that there were temporary inflation fact is pushing inflation down that will be coming back into the market early next year. While we believe there is going to be a lower terminal rate towards the end of this cycle, there is upward room. We are short u. S. While or positive in europe. Talk about that. I know Everyone Wants to jump in. A nice opening section on real yield. We will continue. Up, the auction block. Mcdonald may head to the debt markets in canada. Stay with us, this is bloomberg, real yield. Tom you expected Jonathan Ferro. I am tom keene and this is bloomberg, real yield. Want to head to the auction block. Always interesting. Priced 800nald million of want. Themaple bond market maple leafs bond market on track to be the busiest since the financial crisis. In the middle east and saudi arabia, they raised 12. 5 billion from a second dollar bonds shale as the kingdom bolsters its finances and the u. S. Yield for a note sell hit the highest level since i over, 2008. October, 2008. Mark, let me begin with you on the appetite for paper. Only about theot strategy and economics, but the demand for paper. Is it a frenzy yet . If yields are going to go up, and mr. Kissel is going to tell us, what is the appetite for paper right now . The demand for highquality income assets is huge in the world, and simply put, it is overwhelmed by the supply. Even though you have had a trillion dollars of Investment GradeCorporate Bond issuance here today, it has been met with significant demand and credit spreads have tightened throughout this year, what you will see Going Forward is more range bound to spreads. I dont think you will see tighter spreads Going Forward but most investors have on dennis underestimated how strong these technicals are. The demand for income in the world. Central banks at the margin will gradually normalize and that will cause technicals to change a margin, but right now these technicals are very strong. Ago, i heard sir John Templeton say quietly in a meeting, there will be shortage of paper. That is where we are. Explain to an audience who hasnt read, explain why there is a shortage of paper. Where is the animal spirit from ive got to lows load the boat on fixed it in paper . Honestly, the equity market, as well. We are in a different environment. If 10 years you want if we went back 10 years ago, and you wanted to be conservative, you can cash and still receive 5 to 10 . Around the world, if you are going to own fixed income assets, you will own something that is below your longterm retirement goal. So we do see a demand for highquality assets, but that is also because you have an improving economic environment that has been buoyed by fiscal and monetary stimulus around the world. Asset prices have risen, but the risk profile still looks pretty good relative to the underlying environment. Tom rachel and all of you are sort of from the same idea that i dont want to lose money. I want to make a coupon and find total return. Highyield is making a run. Are you more highyieldy, are you on moderately speaking terms with your corporate desk at Goldman Sachs, or are you highyield all the time . Rachel we are cautious on highyield right now, although we dont see the end of the cycle anytime soon. We think valuations are pretty tight given there are increasing pockets of risk in the market and also the view that as financial conditions tightening in 2018, youll see a steepening of the quality curve. Tom lets do this. This is important. Ferro cant do this, i can. Put your hands up like this to describe it. Full faith and credit down here, this is their yield. You are watching highyield coming in, tight. But then they both move. What happens to highyield if Janet Yellens inflation becomes less and transitory . Do they go up together, how does that dynamic work . Rachel historically highyield has had an inverse relationship with treasuries. The economy has already been strong, and spreads are tight, so there is not a lot of room for spreads to go. And furthermore, we think that rising rates is going to tighten financial conditions, so we think spreads are likely to leak wider. Not taking away the total return of the asset class, but slimming it. Tom mark, i know everybody at pimco eats kale and you havent been to mcdonalds in three years, help me. We saw the mcdonalds auction deal. When a aaa bluechip corporate like mcdonalds comes down, how does that deal get done . How do you get the paper you want . Mark well, tom and i havent eaten fast food in 10 years, so probably not be biggest mcdonalds fan out there. Obviously, investors are out there competing for supply. What is happening right now is the issuer has the advantage because the financial conditions are so easy. Many of these Corporate Bond deals are being met with incredibly strong demand, two or three or four times oversubscribed. So what we are doing is being a lot more select if. We talked about highyield selective. We talked about highyield earlier. We have reduce risk in highyield. We are being more selective. We are owning more senior parts of the capital structure. We are not buying as many new issues as we were six months ago. We are owning more Investment Grade, less highyield. We still like nonagencies as well. We like the u. S. Housing market. Also emerging markets on a relative basis to us look quite attractive. Tom we still have the final spread. Lets continue with this discussion. We will call on Rachel Golder, jim keenan, and marc kiesel. Still ahead, the final spread. It features in the united kingdom, they are arguing. Jobs report in the united states. That will be a big deal as we moved to that december fed meeting. Stay with us. This is bloomberg, real yield. Tom i am tom keene in for Jonathan Ferro. This is bloomberg real yield. Time for the final spread. Coming up over the next week, chair yellen will be speaking, a very important speech this week, in barcelona, the Regional Government else holds a referendum. We had a great report on that this week. Prime minister may headlines conservative confidence. In the united states, we stagger forward to the friday jobs report. I want to go deeper, or as deep as i can with my brain. Jim keenan of blackrock, Rachel Golder of Goldman Sachs, and mark kiesel at pimco. I want you to give us some wisdom here. Article on theat frenzy in your world of loans. Describe how institutions by buy loans. Rachel loans are seen as a higherquality highyield opportunity set, within fixed income and a safer way of getting yield. There has been a massive issuance in the last few years, but most of it has been refinancing oriented, a lot of it absorbed by clos, which are doing very well. Rachel collateralized loan obligation, it tom Jonathan Ferro would not have done that, what is clo . Rachel collateralized loan obligations. The bank loans have a floating rate. Tom we have jim keenan. Explain floatingrate versus fixedrate, and why you need to flow now as you go into 2018 . Jim it is around the duration risk. Fixed income has a variability of rate risk associated with it. Bank runs give you credit risk senior secured credit risk that are tied to the front end relative to what you would get in fixed income. I do think it is important the bank loans, the secured market is giving you a good riskadjusted return profile. What we talked about before is the volatility has been low. But dispersion has been hyde. High. Whether you are looking at loans are highyield or emerging markets, the underlying economy at low growth, there is still huge divergence between winners and losers. I think that is an important part whether you are looking at high yields or loans in having a balanced credit portfolio. Tom what is important here is the exogenous shock. Is chairman war she, chairman taylor, chairman hubbard, can they be an exogenous shock to the certitude of the floatingrate market . Mark i think they can. I think under bernanke and yellen we have had a robust environment. For financial assets. You have seen not only bonds do well, but equities do well. The challenges because the Global Economy is doing decently and because it is likely you will see inflation in developed markets gradually pick up, the ability of Central Banks to provide that tailwind for financial markets, i dont think it is going to be as robust as it has in the past. And by the way, that is independent of the new chair. But the new chair is going to create a potential volatility for markets. So it is something i think that is going to be a headwind for asset rices. Tom jim, i want to go to you with the last question. The nonsophisticates out there say yield higher, price lower. Is anyone looking for an almost bear market in bonds . Is there anybody out there talking about price down where it is painful . Jim im sure there are some people looking out there. Look, we are all getting used to the sense that there is a lot of debt in the system. It is just that the corporate level, the central bank is starting to remove that from the system. Couple that with technology, demographics, i think there is a longer term trend of downward inflation. Tom this has been to sophisticated for surveillance. Jonathan ferro looking to do this each and every week. My thanks to jim keenan, Rachel Golder, and mark kiesel. York, that does it for us. We will see you friday at 12 00 new york time. This is bloomberg real yield. So we need tablets installed. With the menu app ready to roll. In 12 weeks. Yeah. The world of fast food is being changed by faster networks. Data, applications, customer experience. Which is why comcast business delivers Consistent Network Performance and speed across all your locations. Fast connections everywhere. Thats how you outmaneuver. Emily when he took over as ceo of microsoft in 2014, Satya Nadella had big shoes to fill. Bill gates was staying on as a special advisor. Microsoft stock had languished for more than a decade. 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