It was also what came out of pmis. Taylor we had great pmis data. Really showing a divergence between the pmis that you were looking at out of europe where that recovery now seems installed. Most of the analysts said the pmi in the u. S. , dont take us one piece of data as the endall beall, but coming in higher than expectations and that existing home sales data, huge, not only talking about the move to the suburbs but the prices and demand, really something that shows the Housing Market not only in a recovery, but booming. Caroline we were hearing about the potential in real estate and diversified assets. Talk to us about those bets you are making. Where are you looking in that area . Christopher private equity is slow right now. There are not a lot of transactions. People cant travel and do their due diligence. The estate, we are on commercial side, not the residential. What is the value of a mall right now . The departments remain strong. The Office Market is uncertain because none of us are in offices and we are not sure how it is going to look in the future. Area is on fire. Pmi,rms of manufacturing, we are seeing goods move. Amazon Distribution Centers have been a popular investment. For thearm buildings internet have been popular. It is not a market you are going to run into and rates are not at a bargain price, so it is an area that Institutional Investments can make money. Romaine i am curious about your thoughts on broader economic trends. As an investor, you look at the economic recovery and one thing we have seen is a lot of bigger businesses have managed to hold through this. We see bigbox retailers, big software companys power through this. On the Small Business side, the kind of places that are not going to show up in equity index, are struggling. Some businesses might be going away for good. Can we have a functioning economy similar to what we had prior to covid19 that does not include some of those Small Businesses in the same numbers we had before . Christopher we cant. High, an alltime record bond market was up today, that is unusual, but you are right. Main street is being hurt and when the tide goes back out, and it will, remember 1999 . When the tide goes back out, we will see the damage that has been created by this health crisis. The Small Businesses that are shuttered for good, the number of people unemployed that will not find opportunities, think about the restaurant industry, hospitality industry, so on the American Economy in many ways, it is going to take a long time to recover. We were talking about the airlines and how crippled they are. We will get a vaccine but it is going to be slow. About, when is the next time you are going to get on a plane for Business Travel . Most people, it was almost a year before they will be comfortable doing that. That is a slow recovery. I want to get into a letter fight, but i said for a long time i think this will be a choppy economy and choppy recovery outside of the Great Technology names. Caroline so great to have you on a day like today. Christopher ailman, chief investment officer. More market coverage coming up. We will look at treasury auctions. This is bloomberg. Caroline lets look at how the markets closed because it was a set of record highs. Nasdaq, s p for the 500, and it is thanks to apple, the star performer of the week, 150 million, it helped lift the dow jones today. Taylor what has not been amazing this week, those treasury bonds. You pointed out that 20 and 30 year bond options. A little bit of the weakness we have been seeing on the long end of the yield curve we had a record wednesday, that through higher than expected yields, throwing concern about the growing supply of treasuries and then you had a poor showing of that 30 year option, that pushed yields to the highest we have not seen in july. Joining us is ian lyngen. I am curious, as you are taking a look at the supply that the market is trying to digest, are you getting nervous that the market is noticing rising supply or a rise in yields appropriate given the supply and there is no concern . Away anyuld not take amount of concern from an auction in the 10 or 30 year levels are out light at 70 basis points. Right levels are at 70 basis points. New securities are actually well in the money after their idea, which speaks to the that as long as there is a reasonable amount of concession built into the auction, which is a classic ascension classic concession we saw last week, there will be a market and demand. One thing i would point out was 30 year auction had the largest tail on record and that is counterintuitive in an environment where we would think the markets should be worried about inflation and no one was willing to pay up for inflation protection for the next three decades. Romaine we had those fed minutes which took some people by surprise for some reason. He saw a reaction in the equity markets. We are supposed to get a we areum next week, supposed to hear from jay powell. What are you expecting to hear from him . Ian i think the reaction to the minutes was based on the idea that there were expectations for the fed to couple the framework transition with harder Forward Guidance and what the minutes told us was that the fed is not going to do that, so first we look at the framework shift which will be some version of average yearoveryear inflation targeting, we will get more information from the chair next week, then it wont be until either later in 2020 or some point in 2021 that we will see a change to the Forward Guidance to include objective oriented targets, probably more likely. Caroline it is interesting to juxtapose u. S. Options versus the level of demand for the german option which was a 20 year auction, even though they have negative yields. I am interested in your perspective as to how many people you are hearing from are less intoxicated by going into u. S. Debt because the dollar is lower and they are looking for opportunities abroad. Ian i think the weakness of the dollar, as well as the haseptions that the u. S. Been an underperformer in terms of addressing the coronavirus and the pandemic, has played into the notion that we will see plenty of supply Going Forward, so there will be opportunity to buy treasuries in the future. The situation in europe, as evidenced by this mornings rollover in the pmi data, suggests that they are facing the realities of a second wave of the economic fallout, which in that context, it would make sense to be adding. Taylor on real rates in the u. S. , you are looking at negative one to 1. 3 . What rate is appropriate to you . Ian at this stage, i would expect that the fed is going to be happier the more negative yields gets because that is the impetus for growth and that is the shot in the economy that the fed has been hoping for. It is stimulative. Is there an appropriate level . Cannot make itds beyond 75 basis points and we are able to generate some type of real, consistent demandside inflation, which is perhaps what we saw with last week stayed out, i think it is difficult with last weeks data, it will be difficult, especially given how aggressive the fed has been and will be. Romaine when you look at pipe equities, does it feel to you that they are out of sync or are they where they need to be . Like this was a meaningful divergence in april and may when we continued to see the outperformance of the equity markets with rates contained in a tight range. What we are seeing now is an Investment Community that has become comfortable with the idea that the fed has control of the outright yield bubbles and shape of the curve and they will continue to keep risk premium built into the system and in that context, with the fed as it has been, we should be able to continue to see stocks outperform and it is not only the tech sector, but we are starting to see those moves broaden out, although it died feel like tech this week. Romaine wonderful insights from ian. He is head of u. S. Rates strategys at bmo capital markets. Lets get over to mark crumpton. Mark thank you. The u. S. Postmaster general said today, he was unaware of recent mail operation changes until they caused a public uproar but also said he has no plans to restore mailboxes or highspeed sorting machines that had been removed. Members of the Senate Homeland Security Committee questioned him about concerns that the Postal Service would not be able to handle an expected surge of mailin ballots. There will be no post Office Closures or suspensions before november 3. Wasost Office Closures around before i got in. , we i found out about it had the reaction that we did, i suspended that until after the election. Mark he told the committee that his priority between now and election day is that the Postal Service is fully capable and committed to delivering the election mail securely and on time. He called that a sacred duty. Russian doctors have cleared the to for antikremlin activist travel to germany to receive medical treatment for his suspected poisoning. Lifeagreed after his appealed to vladimir putin. He blames putin for his illness. His work documenting corruption in putins inner circle has made him enemies over the years. His illness has raised suspicions following a string of when critics who have been victims of poisoning. Geneva, theks in special envoy for syria today appealed for progress, he said success in next weeks u. N. Lead talks aimed at securing a peaceful future for syria depends on making progress on a series of issues. I told the council and i have said many times that when i meet with syrians from across the board, they all expressed to me the lack of progress on the political front. Mark he urged the International Community to cope to show the people of syria that they have not been forgotten after a decade of war that has claimed hundreds of thousands of lives. Global news, 24 hours a day, on air and on quicktake by bloomberg, powered by more than 2700 journalists and analysts in over 120 countries. Im mark crumpton. This is bloomberg. Investors seek to raise hundreds of millions of dollars the promise to use it in 24 months to pursue a takeover. Investors trust the dealmakers to make an acquisition that will make money in the long term. Titans havetens all raised money for spac. Spac issuance toward path 25 billion in mid august. The most ever raised in a single year. A Technology Billionaire said spac helped after the greatest Wealth Creation opportunity in history, that is miles away from where they were a couple decades ago when the person active when the perspective was dim. People did not know the investors, then in the early 2000, citibank became the first and ipowork with spac now it is shut, actually a better path than an ipo. Firms are chasing spacs because it provides fewer regulatory hurdles. Bakes banks like s pacs. Spacs have generated 800 million in fees for goldman, citigroup, and others. Spacs arent without risk. Many pursued deals that failed to return. The s p 500 rallied to hundred percent. 200 . Bill ackman, who launched the in july, summed up the opportunity and challenge. To marry an attractive unicorn under the sun that meets our characteristics and design ourselves to be an attractive partner. Romaine the meeting of the unicorns. By sonaliak down basak. A couple years ago, we were talking about these Like Tech Companies and it was like crypto company, a blockchain but the companies doing it today seem to be more legitimate companies with legitimate revenue and in some cases profitability. What is the impetus behind this . You are not talking about very many of them and todays spacs are tomorrows deals. In a year where there has been few ipos and very few bigticket deals happening, the best thing anut a spac is they have acquisition that comes after them. So everybody involved wins, especially when a spac gets to retain the fees involved in raising the money. Caroline we have had paul ryan announce one. What are you in veiling for next week . Sonali something that i was on a call with our reporter, we were interviewing dealmakers and nextg, is the spac the fourball rate billionaires and now politicians and sports team owners, is it the next way to own something hot and cool . Meaningless without the deals that they do. When you look at the numbers, they have not worked out yet and there is no assurance that these will work out. All you have is a bunch of money raised. That is billions of dollars, that is happening as Interest Rates remain low. There is a hope these will be have onlys, but spacs really returned 10 percent on average while the s p 500 rallied more than 200 . Taylor why the interest if returns arent there . Sonali there are so many Unicorn Companies and companies that are private, there is a hope that they will like this instead. When we spoke to kevin hart earlier this week, he had a spac, he was talking about amazon buying the market and making it a way for companies to find it attractive to go public. We heard a million times, to reformlleys cry the ipo market, find better prices for the people looking to sell, and there is this hope that this can provide that. Romaine we have also heard from sayingves, basically they welcome this, right . Sonali this time around, there is a hope that this will keep wall street activity going, that Real Companies romaine you mean fees . Sonali they keep the wall street machine going. Even if they are the were in fees, there are fewer underwriters involved so underwriters get to keep a bigger share in those underwriters get to work on the deals in the future and for the exchanges, it is another way of finding a company to live. Caroline winwinwin. Sometimes these things seem too good to be true. A quick check on the rest of the business flash headlines. Another sign that Residential Real Estate markets are going very strong. The most on record last month. Transactions were up almost when he 5 . Almost 85 . Wells fargo has started its jobs cuts. Rivals a break with some who have held back from terminations. Wells fargo is under pressure to reduce costs. Termination resumed in early august. It cost tens of thousands of jobs. Warehouses in the u. K. Are soaring. Retail rents are down within 10 for 2016. Warehouses are getting 20 more. Credit given to the boom in internet shopping. As the virus moves consumers online, there is greater demand to store and distribute goods. ,lso what you might have missed i know my coacres can barely contain their excitement, or exit. Remember that . Brexit. Remember that . Miss having to explain they were highlight in 2019, but at the moment, groundhog day, we are at a stalemate. Romaine they have to get something done but you saw the market reaction. I thought it was interesting because there did seem to be optimism a couple months ago that this was a deal that was going to get done and now, who knows . Taylor i have done the math. Since we stares since we first started talking about brexit it was like three boyfriend to go for me. Caroline has had two kids. How many more kids are we going to have until we have it result . Caroline even if this takes another year, we are done on that. Be three moret boyfriends down by the time we finish. That is what taylor is going to be taking us through. Hoping brexit that stung. Stay tuned, what did you miss is coming up next. Joe weisenthal is ready to come in. This is bloomberg. From new york, i am doe caroline hyde. Romaine a record high. The s p walking a tightrope. Caroline quite phenomenal. The question is, whatd you miss . Romaine joe. Joe i am still getting used to this. My apologies. Caroline day five. Can the economy keep up this pace . Records surging in july with mortgage rates. But plus, august data shows u. S. Manufacturing and pmi above expectations. Joe, millions of people unemployed in this country. The virus still front and center. How much of that is going to eventually detract from the u. S. s ability to keep its head above water, particularly when you look at u. S. Versus europe . Joe there is no question the u. S. Has massive challenges. Not a great job in most peoples view of suppressing the virus. Massive unemployment. Mayalso, the u. S. Economy be better on a relative basis than people think. Although the virus situation is still not great, the rebound in many cases is not as bad as people thought. If you were to say, look at pmi u. S. Versus europe, the white line is the u. S. Version. Higher substantially than the european version. The european one slipped a bit today, hitting european stocks. There is no right line is the key point between virus suppression, at least on a relative basis, and manufacturing. Argue we, there is a lot of data out of the u. S. That is not that bad. Romaine not that bad. I will one of you on that. Take a look at what happened with home sales. Just knock it out of the water. These are the types of numbers we saw during the housing bubble in 2006 through 2009. A lot of this obviously is because of those record low mortgage rates. You had a pentup demand in there as well. Now you are running into this question of whether this can continue. Because the inventory has really lightened up here. Now there is only about 1. 5 million homes for sale out there. Ago is down 21 from a year and the 14th Straight Year of your decline so this is the leanest supply for any july we have had on record. If you want to buy your fifth house, now is the time to do it. Joe if you want to sell your house, you are any good position. Joining us now to break all this down is the university of oregon professor and Bloomberg Opinion columnist. Lets just start big picture, which is, is the economy more robust today than a lot of people would have guessed 1, 2, 3 months ago, especially given how elevated our virus levels remain . Yes. I think it was surprisingly strong given our expectations a few months ago. As you mentioned yo earlier, we are seeing fairly strong rebound among the pmi which is showing significant demand building in the background. We have seen inventory sales ratios drop back to where they were around the beginning of the crisis. That suggests there is room for inventory rebuilding Going Forward that could be fairly significant. An Housing Market has really and the Housing Market has stood out as something giving us a strong signal about where the economy should be headed or is expected to be headed. We can look at housing and say this is the economy. This is one of our best leading indicators. That is giving a pretty clear annal that, wow, there is you numerous of underlying enormous amount of underlying demand. Caroline we can put this fiscal debate to bed . Interestinga very question. We do know that people are still being laid off at fairly high rates. We are still having initial claims. Those people are not getting the same kind of benefits as we got earlier in the year when we had the additional 600. There is reason to think the second wave of layoffs would benefit from additional fiscal stimulus, certainly from a policy manner. Going toher that is derail the economy, the lack of payments, becomes a whole different issue. There is a lot of fiscal stimulus still floating around from the first half of the year as we move into the second half of the year. There could be much more support than i think people have considered or appreciated. Romaine we just had a chart on the screen that showed deposits rising in checking accounts. We have seen some of the personal savings numbers suggesting there is a big cushion of cash out there that could be put to work should consumers feel compelled to do so. Talk to me about it from the Consumer Credit side. We saw a drop off in Consumer Credit that initially some people read as a negative. But there is a positive message underneath that, right . Tim right. Certainly a positive message. There is this idea that as we enter this recession, people would have to live off of credit cards. Now we are paying down credit card debt, which in theory would mean there is room to run up Consumer Credit in the next year. Think until this week people started to really think more Balance Sheets per household. Essentially for the savings the household endured, the reduction in credit card revolving debt, the increase in stock prices, the increase in housing prices. A bloomberg colonist had an article on this earlier this week saying, look at the Household Wealth situation. It has to be a plus moving into the second half of this year and next year. Joe going back to the question of the phase 4, it seems plausible the economy could continue to grow or not slide back into further recession even in the absence of a robust fiscal stimulus. Does the question become about distributional impacts of the growth . So that it is not necessarily maybe we can continue to see topline gdp growth but it is a very skewed economy and its growth accelerates the preexisting inequality and makes it worse. Tim right. I think that is still an issue and that is why there is good reason to think we need some other coronavirus policy support package in order to deal with those distributional issues. I dont want to downplay those issues, but from a macro perspective, we would like to be able to keep the economy moving forward into this year. I want to throw out an additional assets we should be singing about. If we are able to keep the economy moving this year without a package and get a package after all sometime in the next. Onth, that is a huge boost we should also think about what happens next year if you get a vaccine. Suddenly, you have a jump in confidence. Somehow, that 1 trillion or more of excess savings come rushing back into the economy. Caroline plenty to chew on always. We thank you. Questions raised about the unequal balance that continues to be in the growth of this economy. Thank you. Now lets talk king dollar. It may be on the week but Investor Sentiment is down. Overall decline, whether the king dollar longterm has been deke around. This is bloomberg. Joe welcome back to whatd you miss . Of theto look at a chart dollar index because i think it will help clarify some of the conversation. If you look at a fiveyear chart of the dollar index, you can see we have been extraordinarily coming off the highs from march when everyone panicked, mass the cody scramble for dollars. But for all the sum of, we are in the middle but for all of the selloff, we are in the middle. We are still well above on the index will be were in early 2018. Not far from the average the last five years. A kind of useful corrective so to speak of the sky is falling view that many people have had on the dollar lately. Romaine the fiveyear chart is great. If you pull that back to nine years, it would further illustrate your point here. You have all the doomsayers saying the crown is about to be knocked off the head of the dollar but it comes back to the question of what takes its place. It seems a little shaky. Caroline particularly when you get the pmi numbers out of germany and france like we did today. We will be joined now by katie drysdale. Your perspective when you have been writing on things to do u. S. Fx and whether the dollar is in an existential crisis. Is it . It is a great question. There has been a lot of things still over the letter. I thing the narrative got a bit of a reality check today. That came down to data. The european recovery narrative has been weighing on the dollar for several weeks now. But today, you saw Strong Manufacturing data, strong housing security for the u. S. , whereas in europe, you saw europe area pmis disappoint and case counts rise there. It definitely took some steam out of the euro in particular. Down 0. 5 today, and that is a big chunk of the dollar index and helping boost the dollar today and he rates the weekly losses. Joe ultimately, this is the key thing, which is forget all the stuff about the dollar being replaced or whatever. A lot of it is about perceptions of nearterm relative growth rates. Katie absolutely. And how the different yield differentials may affect the flow of capital. Not to rain on the doomsayers too much. Joe go ahead. Feel free. Katie well, i was going to actually defend them a bit and say there is one thing that is different this time, and the fact that the fed has cut rates to rockbottom levels and just eroded any advantage the dollar had. That affects where money flows around the world and the kb trade that has performed so beautifully for the dollar over the past several years. Romaine when you talk about money flowing around the world, can you make a link back to risk assets and equities and equities overseas that ,nvestors are dependent on cheaper dollar funding . The chart that joe showed over the last five years, what is the location for em stocks or other stocks outside of the u. S. . Katie to the direction of the dollar, that is a huge input for money managers. Even though the dollar is hovering around the fiveyear average, the fact that it fell so to medically over the past few months is really what is taking people by surprise. If you look at emerging market equities, that is a they have a relationship with the dollar. Those markets are seeing as a buy. What is interesting is to look at the losers. A weaker dollar might hit japanese stocks in particular. In that country, appreciating yen is bad news for that market. Caroline what does it mean for the u. S. Market . Katie that is a great question. Typically, an appreciating dollar should dent demand, but it really hasnt in the past several years. In terms of the hedging costs, you have seen hedging costs come down a great deal for treasuries for example. But you are still seeing foreigners stay on the sideline. While we are talking about how the direction of the dollar may affect things for the u. S. Market, it has not tended to matter as much for some of those developing nations. Romaine always good to have you on. Great insights. Rate reporting is always. Katie talking about king dollar. Next, we will talk about the new kid on the currency block. What is it . Bitcoin, that is what we will talk about. Digital gold, as i like to call it. [laughter] romaine our guest will join us to talk about bitcoin and all the cryptocurrencies out there. Actually, a lot of activity we have seen in that space the last couple of days. That is coming up next. This is bloomberg. Caroline we have been talking about king dollar and whether the role it plays will stay but what about bitcoin and its crypto colleagues . I want to bring you up to what has been happening this week. We have had the 12,000 mark reached by bitcoin. Much highfiving. For me, much worrying. Hanging out with the new crypto kings, the twins that run gemini. Whether or not they are well i dont know, but the key is whether or not we are seeing 12,000 reached. Is it a new phase for this particular asset . When you look at the chart, we are nowhere near 2017. Joe no, it has not gotten to where we were in 2017, but it has been impressive. If you look at the 2020 chart, it looks familiar. It looks like the stock market. It looks like the faang stocks, the nasdaq. So it really is interesting to see sort of bitcoin look like a broader macro asset class that went down and plummeted in march and is recovering. Romaine interesting to see what correlations are out there for bitcoin. Lets bring in catherine, the u. S. , joining us to talk more about this. What is the correlation right now for bitcoin . Catherine you are absolutely right you are seeing an increased recovery and attention to bitcoin since we saw added amount of attention. We are seeing in the past week, mass adoptions for the space, especially seeing full wanting to dive in, learn more about it, and by more buy more. Caroline the barstool president key among them. I am interested about what is happening in terms of the numbers on bitcoin and whether it will push higher from a fundamental basis or from a technical basis. When people start looking at prices on bitcoin, many look at the technical move. What are you looking at from a fundamental perspective that drives it higher . Is it interest from hedge, not just retail . Funds, not just retail hedge funds, not just retail . Catherine we are looking at ways to allocate resources. Crypto serves great market for that, being a 24 7 acceptable market. You have the freedom to invest or change around your investments in Digital Assets from your phone. All of these still play into a really relevant space here as we go forward into the unknown. Joe you are talking about sort of institutional interest growing in this space. It is crypto. There is the button down stuff like bitcoin relatively speaking, and then there is completely bizarre stuff like there was a quinn called the yam that plunged. There was a popular one that referenced two chicken tenders which has done well. To chicken tenders, which has done well. I am curious what that does to institutions or what that says to institutions thinking about making allocations to crypto. Catherine we are not seeing them back down from the institutionss perspective. As well as continued Key Players Like fidelity continuing to push forward into this industry. That is the best part of this. The big players from the Traditional Space are not backing down. The iterations we are seeing on the integrated side and innovative, we are seeing them come up with new ideas. Creating more ways of using the technology. The carry trade has seen its day. We are still hungry for more yield. Romaine the regular tory environment and potential loosening of rules would allow for a few more vehicles for some of the Crypto Assets to get into investorss hands. We saw that fall by the wayside for a variety of reasons this year. Do you anticipate any change on that front . Catherine no. I think the regulation is being pushed forward. Added increasing, whether sandboxes on a state level being pushed through or other ways where cryptocurrencies will be used for job creation. Individuals being able to speculate on them as well as additional ways. Caroline everyone got very excited about coins in particular, tether which was painted in a way. I am interested in the performance longerterm, particularly when you start to see the u. S. Dollar losing some of its value visavis the key currencies. Do people still want to be tethered, still want to be linked . Catherine you saw a lot of that adoption come after the volatility was tilted toward the downside doing the bear market we took care of in the last three years. People were wanting to stay active in the additional asset space but not have to bear losses as the market was sliding down. We are seeing a shift to more positive volatility where people are willing to actually participate in the were market cap points, more alt points as well. Coins are still an easy way to move between exchanges around the world. Joe speaking of more volatile coins, caroline mentioned dave portnoy getting into crypto. Something he said earlier this i like aboutng pump and dump, it is encouraged and crypto. Is it encouraged in crypto . Should there be more attention paid to where small groups of insiders promote with the intention of dumping those coins on new retail money . Catherine educating, not intimidating is what we stand for and that statement is an intimidating thing for people to hear. There are two for the muscles in understanding additional assets. We make sure people understand those before making these choices. Understanding the risks at hand and making sure they only invest what they are comfortable with losing. Caroline it is winter keep a close eye on. I am interested where we are seeing money move from. Are you seeing capital flight being used, particularly in emerging markets . 50 billion in Crypto Assets have left china in the past year. This is something being looked at. How much do you think crypto is being used for capital flight . Catherine good question. We are focused on folks in the United States really being able to build out their investment in Digital Assets or understanding how they can use them. From our perspective, most of our resources coming in are purely from folks in the united is the case for Digital Assets to be used to be spent quickly around the world. Joe there is a lot of interest in the industry in a bitcoin etf one day. I am curious your perspective. Would it be a threat if there was an easy way to do it just a on a typical block account so to say . Catherine one of the beauties of Digital Assets is you do not actually need a vehicle in order to invest in it. You can be and so control of your investment. I think that is something where in the traditional realm etfs were an easy way to get exposure without having to understand the chart of it. You are in control of the Digital Assets. You are able to move and store them as you please. A feature, not a book i would take. Caroline interesting take. Thanks so much. Sadly, it is a friday and that is all for whatd you miss . For the week. Joe Bloomberg Technology is up next. Romaine you missed it again. Missed your q. Cue. Joe i am so rusty. Romaine your first week back. Have a great weekend everybody. This is bloomberg. Emily welcome to Bloomberg Technology. Stocks climbing today, let again by technology. Apple jumping ahead with its 441 stock split scheduled for monday splitor one stock scheduled for monday. Meanwhile, wildfires continue to rage across california and colorado as well. These are some of the largest wildfires in the
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