Project of reform. Mr. Trudeau doesnt want to have a referendum on reform. Stephen harper wants in he once any change to go through a reform process. Mr. Harper we have a westminster system. Voters are able to elect governments, not coalitions later. Canadians this has come up before. It was the subject of a referendum in ontario and Prince Edward island. I have not found canadians who want to make this change. In fact, when asked, they reject it. Lets play under the rules. Mr. Wells when he brought in his unfair elections act, he refused to talk to canadians. We stood up strong and opposed it. We shut down travel by parliamentarian committees. We used every tool to stop him from walking away. He has made it harder for whole classes of canadians to vote. That is not just our opinion. All of the experts who have looked at his unfair elections act has said the same thing have said the same thing. Mr. Harper, if you have become such a keen fan making sure no single party can change the rules, why dont you go ahead and do just that . Mr. Harper the principal change it makes is voters have to show id to demonstrate who they are. There are many pieces of id they can show. Canadians overwhelmingly support that. 90 of canadians believe you should be able to show who you are before you vote. Frankly i think voters should be , worried about parties who would not do that. Who cannot identify themselves. Mr. Trudeau this is a perfect example of how mr. Harper creates fear of massive voter fraud. His party was not able to prove anything. The fact is the job of elections canada, and what we should look at as a goal as a country is to encourage as many people as possible to vote. Changes mr. Harper has made to the act get more difficult for students, aboriginal and indigenous communities, to actually vote. The fact is, we need to make sure those voices are being heard because those voices are not just marginalized in voting rights, but so many aspects of society. Mr. Harper wants to keep it that way. Mr. Harper how can we identify fraud if we dont even know who voters are . This is a commonsense reform , supported by 90 , we have made sure it is id applicable for every canadian. One of the things it allowed you to do was extend to 11 weeks. It allowed you to prorate expenses did you have this kind , of Long Campaign in mind for two years . Mr. Harper we agreed to have an Election Debate months ago. Everyone knew an election would be on it is very simple. , if we are going to be an election campaign, we should be under the rules of the election act, not using parliamentary resources. Mr. Wells we are going to continue this with new questions. The first goes to the Prime Minister, stephen harper. You used to promise you would not name senators who had not been elected now youre promising you wont use senators at all. You are blaming courts for blocking reform and have asked provinces to come up with ideas. Ids. The folks in the provinces did not name the senators in trouble, you did. Do you owe canadians an apology . Mr. Harper the senate has had these kinds of problems for 150 years. For the first time, we have a senate with clear rules and is enforcing them. My role is not to apologize for the bad actions of others. The role of a leader is to take responsibility and hold people accountable, and that is what we are doing. Mr. Wells your policy is not to name senators indefinitely. There was a court case before a judge in British Columbia on the assertion that will not work. If you cannot empty out the senate over time, have you sought constitutional advice on whether you can go ahead with your new policy. Mr. Harper you cannot empty the senate entirely, but i have left 22 seats vacant. The Prime Minister has the power to name those or not name those. We have brought the cost of the senate down. It has fallen by 6 million. Those will force most provinces, almost all of them who have opposed Senate Elections and reform, to come clean with that and explain why the senators are not being elected. I gave them a chance, they will not elect them and why the will not abolish. Over time, public pressure will force this issue to be resolved. Frankly, the longer there are vacancies, it will raise questions about why we continue with the senate we do. Mr. Wells you think one idea is to meet to discuss the issue. Mr. Harper no. I have talked to provinces, i know with the positions are. There is nowhere near consensus on either reform or abolition. Opening up constitutional discussions is the wrong priority for the country. Our priorities are the economy and security, if the provinces really believe the senate should be fixed, tell us how. Mr. Wells the First Response goes to tom mulcair. Mr. Mulcair he has said he would never name and appointed senator. He has broken a record and named 59 and the list continues to grow. I am looking for a mandate on october 19 to put an end to this once and for all. There are things we can do. The first is to make sure every vote counts. Open up parliament, for example. Get rid of the secrecy of the internal committee that looks at how taxpayer money is spent. We think taxpayers should have the ability to look at how every single dollar is spent. By the way, we do want to get rid of the senate abolition. Mr. Trudeau thinks we need better senators. I think we only need former senators. Mr. Trudeau his plan is to say, stop me before i appoint again. The fact is he made a solemn promise to never appoint a senator, he broke that promise on his very first day as Prime Minister by appointing a senator. He broke that promise to the eight more times 58 more times. Mr. Mulcair wants to open of the constitution. When the next Prime Minister eventually sits down to talk about things, i can tell you canadians are going to want the Prime Minister to talk about jobs, Climate Change, health care, not to talk about how to open up the constitution to try and improve the senate. The fact that the local party took concrete action to remove the senators from our caucus to make sure any future appointments are done in a transparent nonpartisan way. To actually reform the senate. Ms. May whoever gave you the advice needs to go back to law school. What you are doing is unconstitutional. The single the biggest scandal that has yet occurred was not the misspending, it was the illegitimate notion the Prime Ministers office has the right to tell conservative senators how to vote. For the first time in history of this country, a bill passed in the house of commons, the democratically elected house past the passed the climate accountability act. When it went to the senate, the conservative senators were instructed to kill it at the first opportunity. The first time in the history of this country appointed senators have killed a bill without a single day of study in the senate of canada. Mr. Wells did you ask the senators to stop the bill . Mr. Harper we always ask senators to support the party position. We cannot force them to do anything. We asked them to support the party position. If you look at the facts of the parliament under this government, this is often not reported. We have backbenchers back ventures voting more freely than in decades. More private members of legislation that have gone through parliament and multiple governments before. That is the reality of the situation. Mr. Mulcair i was there. The day the senators had this to block a bill that had been adopted by those people elected by the public that was the first time in 75 years, and on what subject . The most important issue facing future generations. I do not want my grandchildren to bear the burden for wrongheaded choices. Mr. Harper admitted he asked the senators to vote to kill a bill adopted by the house of commons. What greater proof of a lack of a respect to our fundamental democracy than asking unelected people to defeat a bill voted on and adopted by the elected parliament. Mr. Harper we asked them to stick to principles. The fact is private members legislation has been blocked very frequently by the senate. Ms. May never. Mr. Harper the reason i do not have to name senators is because we have a healthy government majority. Mr. Trudeau you broke your promise 59 times. Mr. Harper for three years we left 20 vacancies in the senate. We invited the providences to elect, finally to get government legislation moving in the senate, 2008 i said i would appoint senators. We have done so. Now that we dont need to, we have stopped. Mr. Trudeau, you just said there are no liberal senators. Go to the website, there are 29 liberal senators. Your premier has told a magazine that no one would support it, is that not a problem . Mr. Mulcair it is in issue i understand. We would take a different approach this issue begins with , a mandate. It is not because it has been there for a long time that we cannot get rid of it. Mr. Harper has refused to attend a single meeting since coming becoming Prime Minister. I go to two meetings a year. Im not afraid of sitting down with my provincial colleagues. Things like health care, we need a modern accord of course im going to sit down with them instead of dictating a big cut like mr. Harper did. On Senate Reform i would ask for a mandate october 19 and start the hard work i have started , of meeting with the premiers to get rid of this undemocratic undemocratic, Unaccountable Institution that is a relic from our colonial past. Mr. Harper it was your position for your years in quebec. Mr. Mulcair is a longstanding position since the unilateral page reaction. Unilateral constitution. Every Quebec Government has said that. That is why i am not hesitant to sit down and work on this tough issue. I believe sincerely the only way to deal with the senate is to get rid of it. 1 billion has been spent on the senate under his watch. He has done nothing about abolition or reform. Can you imagine how many childcare spaces we could have created with 1 billion. Ms. May the way the greens advocate we change the way we make decisions in canada to create a space where we can Work Together is to create a council of canadian governments. That would include building on the council federation, federal provincial, territorial. As well as first nations. Around the same table we need to , deal with the senate. It is not my top priority because it is hard and will require opening up the constitution. We think we should amend the amending formula so canadians can change the constitution by referendum. That would be instead of the antiquated formula we have today. Mr. Wells the pragmatist or the Prime Minister called you out and said there were a lot of liberal senators. Mr. Trudeau we have released the senators so they can be independent. Some have chosen to continue to call themselves liberals. Unlike what mr. Harper said which it is he directed though cinders to vote along the party those senators to vote along party lines, i have not done that, and i no longer have the power to do that over senators formerly in the liberal caucus. We feel the decisions made in the upper house should be independent of the political maneuverings mr. Harper has. Mr. Harper they vote the party line every time. Youd have to think of a changed now that they are senate liberals. Here is the reality during the , most recent provincial election in nova scotia, the new premier had all the liberals on stage to thank them for doing his fundraising. The bagman of the liberal party are still in the senate. Ms. May heres a surprise. Larry campbell endorsed me. Mr. Wells stay with us for the final round. We have moved our viewing parties west, here is a look at the university of British Columbia, packed as people tune into the debate. Welcome back. We approach the final leg of this debate. Justin, what are you thinking so far on round two . Justin mulcair was quite strong. He had a couple of issues where he could of been stronger, but he eventually got into a groove. He went after the Prime Minister. The prime and mr. Looks Prime Minister looks weak on democratic reform. Ms. May brought herself and by knowing her numbers and facts and having a concise message. At least she got into the debate. John i agree. I thought the Prime Minister had to be worried going into the section on democracy in the senate. I thought he came out scuffed up. He wasnt battered and bruised. He held his own. Cynthia what do you think of the comment, it is not his job to apologize for the actions of others. John that was a tough question. Harper was good on the question of separation. That was one of his stronger points. Cormac he was on the hot seat again, taking attacks. We have heard, that is not true so many times. Trudeau has performed well on the issue of the senate. Cynthia harper taking a lot of heat. Canadians are piping about these issues on facebook. Roger peterson with how you have been responding. Roger the head of Public Policy from facebook, have been talking about the polls, to go in favor of that. Kevin a clear preference. 83 saying we should change the system. Roger not surprising when you think about the government and how important that has been to people. Kevin often times people will say governance doesnt matter. But we see a clear preference, secondhighest topic discussed for the election. Roger an important idea discussed to read we will hear more about it over the next few months. We had to gord. Head to gord. Gord be sure to tune in after the debate as we explore the issues on a number of fronts. How canadians are responding in person and online. We will hear from the moderator about being in the middle of the action. That is where we are going right now the Party Leaders are here , to take on the final issue. Mr. Wells welcome back once again to the debate the final topic is on Foreign Policy and security. If there ever was a distinction about the choices canada makes abroad, it vanished last october, when voters inspired by International Terrorist movements murdered people in ottawa. Canadian security is being challenged in iraq and syria. Our commitment to our allies is tested in Eastern Europe. Our relations with the u. S. And with the worlds rising powers is another area of controversy. In our final segment we will , discuss canada and the world. Mr. Wells our first question on this goes to mr. Mulcair. Canadians are reluctant to send soldiers into combat, but they are also willing to defend canadian values when necessary. The historic reluctance has never been tested in power. Would an ndp government send troops or jet fighters into combat . If so, where . Mr. Mulcair we have shown that willingness in the past in the case of the u. N. Mandate such as libya. We agree with the first two being part of that, the votes in the house, and then we withdrew that when they changed the nature of the mission they were asking us to support. The Prime Minister consulted me in sending in the airlift capability in somalia. There will be times when that is appropriate, before i would send in our brave men and women in uniform, and risk their lives, i will think about them and their families and make sure we have a , clearly defined mission and exit strategy. That is why when mr. Harper started his most recent adventure in iraq, we said no, this is not something can do something that canada should be involved in area in. The question is, when do we put troops in harms way . We thought in that case it was inappropriate. Mr. Wells all the traditional allies support the mission was against isis in iraq and syria. Is that not broad enough . Mr. Mulcair multilateralism is a canadian approach. Dont forget, you have named if you a few nato allies this is an american led mission. Not a u. N. Mission, unlike that i referred to in libya a couple of years ago. We think we are taking a wrongheaded approach and a lot of the horrors we are seeing are a direct result of this war. We said we would stay out, and we are seeing the results of that wrongheaded decision right now. Mr. Wells the First Response goes to elizabeth may. Ms. May that vote when everyone voted for the continued bombardment of libya took place after the mission had changed. The u. N. Sanction and approval was the responsibility to protect civilians from qaddafi. At the moment that we as a country said, oh, the rebel forces are the legitimate government of libya we did that , knowing those rebel forces included al qaeda. I was the only member of the parliament who voted against this. It seemed clear, with a piece offer, we should take that ceasefire, and see if it would work. The warehouses all of arms belonging to qaddafi ended up warehouses full of arms belonging to qaddafi ended up being emptied out by hoodlums and terrorists and to stabilizing mali. Some of those weapons ended up in the hands of isis. The question is how could we as , a country that has always stood for peacekeeping, why did every member vote to continue bombardment when everything i said was clear . Mr. Mulcair we will evaluate it based on whether it is a u. N. Mission, and when it becomes clear it has morphed for a regime change. She is opposed to every single use of military. Mr. Harper is in use of every is in favor of every possible use of the military. We are going to take a balanced approach that would take into account canadian values. Mr. Wells do you think we need a u. N. Mandate before we send canadian troops abroad . Mr. Trudeau it is a clear indicator that we should be involved in some situations, and some we should not. I supported afghanistan and kosovo. The fact is, i am proud to have among us in our great team of candidates the former commander of the army on the ground in afghanistan. The liberal party knows canada has an Important Role to play around the world promoting peace and security. Where i disagree with the Prime Minister on this Current Mission is not that canada should not , have a role against isil. I just disagree with the approach he has. Unfortunately mr. Harper has not seen a war he has not wanted to get involve