With author thomas ricks. And later, another look at that discussion from washington journal about the trump administrations approach to Foreign Policy. Announcer this week on q a, author and Foreign Policy magazine blogger, thomas ricks. Host tom ricks, let up to the time that you started writing churchill and orwell. Tom i was saying a farewell to journalism for myself and becoming a fulltime book writer. I was wondering who would be remembered if any. Started with h. L. Minkin. I found his style raw. I turned to eb white. Style. Ose his concerns werent mine. Pearlman. I still dont see why hes funny. Hemmingway, blowhard. Then i picked up George Orwell. His prose style seems contemporary. It feels fresh. Ou could take a paragraph out of many of his essays and drop it into todays newspaper, and it would fit right in. I started diving into orwell. Why did he feel so fresh and contemporary. Him, i was ead of struck, boy, this resonates with our own time. Then i began thinking how orwell was paralleled by another hero of mine come Winston Churchill. Such different people in so many ways, yet they keep coming together on the question on how you preserve individual liberty . I went to my agent and we were talking about writing a book about the vietnam war. I decided after six months of research, i cannot do it without research and interviews. I decided to do a book on churchill and orwell. Can you solve that . He said, are you kidding . Men only buy books on three world s, the civil war, war ii and hitler, and youve got half of them. E said i could sell that anywhere, go ahead host how did it come together and how close this book to what you set out to do . Tom this is the book i helped to write, but it is not the book i first set out to write. I sent it out to my longterm editor, six books with him, who i really trust. He read the first draft and sent me a note saying, i hate it. This is not the book i asked you to write. Host you are finished with the book. Turned it in. Hes a good editor. He once said to me that he me of david harsherstop because he knew i needed editing appreciative of the editing. I sent him the book and he said, book. His is really not the before i can edit this, you really need to redo the whole thing. Weeks pent about four going over his notes to me and his markings on the manuscript. What i loved, i actually put it at the top of my revised wrote angrily in the side margins of the printout, tom, if you would only defer to the narrative, you could get here. H murder in the first was draft the works were put ahead of the people. He said youve got to give me people before the books. The second thing he said, chronology is your friend. Athema tick book. He said take the story chronologically. O my surprise, its much easier. I dont have to tell you why im telling you something. This is happened and its interesting. Over the course of six months, i revised the book, took down the structure, piled my materials like a housebuilder, sat down with a new blueprint and rebuild the house. Scott, my editor, got the revised version after six months and said this is perfect. This is what it wanted. Host you started with a story about Winston Churchill. Why . Tom because i was struck by these two people. They came so close to not being any part of our history. Both orwell and churchill nearly died and that was and will not ask me because these guys, for most of their lives, were failures. It struck me as so human. These are great people who had a great effect on our lives, but they nearly didnt. For most of the time, like most f us, they struggled to be who they wanted to be. And unlike most of us, they succeeded in doing great things. Host what was the story about Winston Churchill and new york city . Tom churchill in the early 1930s is in new york city trying to recover his fortune by speaking and giving a speaking tour. He had lost a lot of money in the stock market crash. He was on the outs politically with his own party in london. So he was in new york, certain he was in new york, crossing avenue, trying to recover some of his money and looks at the political situation. Wrong way, probably, because hes english, crosses fifth avenue, hit by a many yards. His scalp is lacerated, ribs are broken, he could have died. He called it one of the lowest points in his life. Great physical pain, really feeling isolated politically, not knowing what his future is. In fact, after that, in 1933 he gets up in the house of commons and gives his first antinazi speech saying we cannot live with the nazis. Dont think you can. All you are doing is making the outcome harder because they are growing in power. He repeatedly gives speeches saying germany is rearming, fact of the matter is they are rearming. They are building an air force. Navy andxpanding their their army. By his , he is mocked own party. He is treated really mad bypassed by history, a washed up of the d hes kept out abinet despite his own party and the popularity with the people. He called this his wilderness years, which end with the beginning of world war ii when they are forced to bring him into the cabinet. Host the second story is about a personal story about George Orwell. Tom he is also an obscure figure. More than churchill. It is interesting that he is a much larger figure for us now than he was in his own time. For most of his life, which was fairly short life. He died at 1950 at age 46. He is a of hus life, mediocre novelist and a fairly minor journalist. He wrote some great essays, politics on the english language, one of the greatest time. Of all theyre not really appreciated. Hes really seen as a tertiary literary scene. Until close to the end of his life. T the end of his life, he published his first animal later. D in a few years both are extremely several. 1984, his name, winston. Churchill read it twice and and interestingly, o socialist, a real leftist all his life, admired hurchill across the political chasm and wrote, really, he was the only conservative he admired. Rwell ever ng o rote and published on his hospital bed and dying was an appreciated review of world war memoirs. So orwell goes off to spain in 936 to see the spanish civil war. The rives, entranced by equality of the spanish revolution. Barcelona, comes back and fights on the frontlines. He comes back a few months later. His wife follows him to spain and barcelona and she whispers changed. Erything has you be really careful here. And very soon, he is streetfighting. He thought his antistalin is being pursued and eliminated by the people whose side he thought he was on, spanish republican government which is fighting the rebels, the fascist nationalists. Orwell goes back to the front, shot through the throat and nearly dies. Expects to die when he realizes hes been shot in the throat. Said hed never heard of anybody surviving it. Passed usly, the bullet between the windpipe and the then because it was coming in at an angle, it missed his spine as it went out the back. It did bruise his nerves enough use he temporarily lost the of his right arm and could barely speak for some time. But he survived and, he already had bad lungs, went on smoking the which i think e, aggravated his tuberculosis, died as why i think he a young man. Host who were the two men physically like . Tom opposites. Orwell was lanky, about 64, 140 pounds, skrauny. Byrchill was often described friends as a round little pig. People seeing him in the bath swimming had called him a hippo and i think this was if you ted by the fact churchill loves his champagne, and wine and good food. He also always wears pale, pink, and urpd underwear pajamas. Lying in bed, he must have appeared like a pig smoking cigar. Hed lie in bed Smoking Cigars to people. Alking host i said as i read this, this is a book about writing. All the other things you have in there, what did you learn about writing from both of them . Tom it is about writing. Thats a nice perceptive comment. It is a book about words. The new that both of them knew that words matter. Both of them as young men had as i ar correspondents had. Iraq, i cation going to went to people from Johns Hopkins who assigned roles. To know your player and i was assigned the role of him e orwell, just studied there. These are two of the great prose stylists i think of the 20th different. Very orwell once said he wanted his as ing style to be as clear a pane of glass. Hurchill, if youd ask him the same question would say, sure, ill be glass, the stained glass a cathedral window with powerful sunlight pouring blues. The reds and the churchill was a painter. There was a relationship between writing. G and his he has a lovely essay he wrote on painting, and he says, i love the bright colors, the yellows, the oranges and the greens. Sincerely sorry for the browns and the grays. In painting, the great thing about painting is you have to Pay Attention to the smallest detail while keeping and hole picture in mind, that captures beautifully his approach towards being a wartime leader. Into details down but he always had the big strategic picture in mind i read in your book that George Orwell sold 50 1984 . Opies of tom since his death. Host since his death . Tom yeah. Popular book when it came out, but one of the at orwell n looking is his career since his death post en one of the great humuscareers in literary history. Cant really think of anybody else who comes so close. E goes from being not even mentioned in books about his time written at the time, 1940s in the 1930s and were written at the time, until now, if you read an intellectual in the 20th rope century, there are things like there are sections age of orwell. The feeling of his book 1984 and animal farm captured so much the problems of totalitarianism, hitlerism, stalinism, and the basic question of our time that men addressed how does the conscience and soul survive in a time of government . Is there a place for the individual . Thats what , churchill said in talking about world war ii on the day it was declared war. War about s is a whether this is the place of the individual or whether the state can tell you what to think and how to behave. Orwell, that becomes even more of a theme. Do we think about our place in this world, an era where the mind . An reach into your how can we preserve the right to perceive . Right to and that becomes the key theme 1984. At one point, his hero, winston says, if you can four fingers held up and say, i see four fing rz, liberty,e beginning of the right for an individual to perceive and determine for themselves what the facts of the are, not to have the government tell you what the facts are. You go about doing the book . Id you have to travel to places . Theres not much video at all on orwell. We couldnt find any. Vanishing are photographs of him. But cripts have been found i dont think the actual recordings themselves. Host he worked at the bbc . Tom he spent time at the bbc trying to help the war effort. A war rejected for being correspondent. They said we wont send you overseas because your lungs are too bad. He tried to help and joined the home guard, kind of the guard, and he went to work writing propaganda for the bbc. He hated the job at the bbc. I dont think he was that good at it. Good speaking a voice. Bureaucracy of it. Bbc were gs at the held in room 101, which in a ittle bit of humor, he makes 1984, and itroom in where ut, room 101 is our greatest fears are realized. For him, it was rats for orwell. Rats eatatened to have his face off, and that is when he gives up and said you can my lover before you take me and ill agree to anything you tell me is the truth. 129, you have a paragraph that was well wrote and ill read it because it idea of what he sounded like in words. His is his comments on nevil chamberlain. Chamberlains opponents this s orwell writing professed to see him in a dark and wiley as a dark and englandplotting to sell to hitler, but it is far likely stupid old merely a man doing his best, according to very dim lights. Its difficult to understand the of his policy, his failure to grasp any of the courses that were open to him did the massive people he not want to pay the price, either of peace or at war. Such a t last line is great line. He did not want to pay the price of either peace or war, and its true, very insightful. All too often a problem in politics and policy. Judged chamberlain a little bit more harshly. Chamberlain himself thought he was a great man and i judged him dayicularly because on that world war ii began in europe, war britain entered the september 3, 1939. Gave a l got up and war,rful speech, about the the war of the individual, in an talitarian iving to chamberlain got up nd gave the most selfish speech. All my dreams are shattered. Its not about you, chamberlain, its about western civilization world, which is what churchill said, which is how world, are and the especially how england was to have churchill on hand and have over in may 1984. Host theres a lot of little you about nt to ask and this is one of them. When youre writing about 1984 you refer to ministry, the truth government, but this struck me, war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength. You go down and refer to the department of the ministry of peace. Reason why i ask you that is we have now an institute of peace in this country, in this town. Whats that all about . Is that 1984 coming true . Om no, i take a far more benevolent view of our institute of peace. Theres a good motivation behind it, which is the u. S. Government spent so much money on war, preparation for war and our defense, and not so diloam diplomacy and ways of finding peace. In u. S. Army has more people its military bands than the state department has in the service. We just so outspend ourselves defense. Which doesnt even help us on our defense. I think our military would be stronger if we cut spending, then wed have to think rather than just spend. Host you have a quote in there. It from another book but i want to ask you to expound on it. Met with joseph kennedy, who was the ambassador britain, and he says to wife after they had met at yde park, quote, i never want sob again as long as i live. Resignation and get him out of there. What is that about . Tom she told him, youre for the weekend. Get him on a train to new york. What its about is joseph father of john f. United in 1939 was a states ambassador to england. And some people thought he was profascist. Sympathetic to the germans and absolutely believed that they would beat england. Came back and he said to some reporters, that democracy up, trying to move on and he went to roosevelt and almost certainly told him that and in was going to lose sign a peace treaty with germany, which is actually what aristocrats and conservatives of england thought. And roosevelt was having none other. He had just kept kennedy, i england to keep him from coming back and running against roosevelt for president 1940. Once roosevelt was reelected, he had no use for kennedy and out of his world and basically banned him from politics. Host who is general brook . Allen brook was hurchills closest military advisor. A man of some talent but not i think, who simultaneously admired church while d grew to hate him working with him. He loved him and he loathed him, i think. He was exacerbated by churchills behavior. Found him kind of a modelling sometimes. I have a lot of sympathy for brook but i think he failed in one key way. Not have a basic strategic understanding of the war. Example, he really oesnt get why we need to help russia, why the west, america need to help h, russia and to persuade stalin to war. The whereas churchill absolutely nderstands that having russia on our side, on the allied side in the war is essential, as is the g the americans into also nd i think he understands that russia basically won world war ii. Elements in the american victory, the allied ii, as a n world war ook i recently read said british stubbornness, american industry, and russian blood and i think we in the west tend to forget how much more of the world russia carried in war ii than anybody in the west did. I dont think its in the people did many russia lose in world war ii. 20 i think the estimate is million. Host how many did the british lose. Tom i dont know off the top of and the americans were about 500,000. Host you have a chapter of declinel and britain in say riumph, and you tensions strained his relationship with his allies. Were ishged by europe. Sometimes he took his time to respond to the prime ministers in part, ecause, because he was a sick man. British he later ambassador to paris complained to his wife in a letter in april that british policy was, uote, handcuffed to an obstinate old cripple, end quote. President roosevelt. That was because the distance was growing between them, they ere going to win the war and own the world in effect. Youve spent a lot of time talking about the attitude of british, towards the british towards americans. Some background. Tom it strikes me as almost tragedy. K brittin and america come magnificent way. I dont think theres another example in history of allies closely uite so together. Attitude is very condescending. Their attitude at the beginning s the americans are our little brothers, well educate them. Weve been at war for several years. Fight tell them how to it. The american attitude is, you guys have been losing several years. What do we have to learn from a losers . But they worked together. They followed this plan. Invade ly, they do northern europe. Sort of you find this tragic moment when the british realized in sort of august and 1944, the americans dont need us anymore. Fougthought and that in a ad hoped played world, the greeks for the romans educating these barbarian militaristic, raising them and teaching them. The americans said, basically, off. Woe dont need you anymore, and were running this war. And they found that the americans sometimes didnt even british advice. They just said this is whats happen. This is what were going to do 1945. N 44 and early host i want to go back to the writing, starting with you, you said earlier this is the sixth book. Very briefly, tell us the books that youve written and ill read them off. Generals American Military command from world war ii to today. That was 2012. That book . Tom id actually probably go in he opposite direction from the beginning. Host making the core . Tom it was inspired by covering marines in somalia. I was walking down the street with a young marine, and i said able as a you corporal to play acting squad leader . Old. 19 years we wouldnt let you run the xerox machine alone in my office. Camp. Boot okay, ill go to paris island and see what happened there. Marines d one group of through boot camp. Host a soldiers duty and novel in 2001. Covering a nce hearing, and the Senate Chiefs to me he didnt believe to be true but felt it duty to do so, that wed months. Oznia in six i thought how often soldiers duty to superiors could be at subordnance. What is a soldiers duty . The novel is a meditation on is. A soldiers duty my least successful book, and not s