Brian gordon wood, as a longtime historian, what impact does it have on you that you were born in concord, massachusetts, grew up around boston . What has it done to your thinking of history . Gordon it made me a fan of john, just because he was a good old yankee. I am not sure that being a northerner has affected me consciously, i do not like to think that i am letting the present influence my conception of the past. So i am not sure. But i am a new englander for sure. Brian can you remember when you first heard about john adams . Gordon probably not until high school. I did not know much about him, not until college. I had not gotten to see his home until after college. So it was a long time before i got to know him. Now, because they did three volumes in the library of america about his writings, i really got to know him. I think i got to know him better than i know most of my friends. He is really something. Brian you said in your book that he had it and Thomas Jefferson did not. Why do think one did and the other didnt . Gordon adams was a puritan in that sense. He came out of that tradition, they kept diaries. He needed to write out his emotions and feelings. He put everything in that diary. As a young man. I mean, he said things about himself that most people would say, most people would not say. He expressed himself and even talked about his vanity. He talked about every intimate feeling he had. That is not something jefferson would do. Jefferson was reserved and would never write what adams did, even in his letters. He simply, he had a very different temperament. They could not differ more in temperament. Brian what other differences . Go through a litany. Gordon physically they were different. But most importantly, jefferson was a wealthy slaveholder. He was a leader of the slaveholding society. He acquired quite a bit of land and money from his father, but also from his fatherinlaw. He became very wealthy. It was automatic he would go into the house of burgesses and become a politician, a political leader. It was a consequence of his social status. Adams came out of a middling background and he did not inherit much from his father. He was not wealthy. He never became one of the richest men of massachusetts and he always resented that, because he was always regarded as of middling background and he suffered a little bit of contempt from some of the wealthy massachusetts men for that reason. Brian if you were in the same room with the two of them, talking just to the two of them, what would you notice . Gordon adams would be talking and was sarcastic. He had a sharp, sarcastic tongue. Jefferson was restrained, reserved. He kept his arms folded in front of him when he talked. Adams made mistakes because adams said what he thought and offended a lot of people. Jefferson was the opposite, obsessed by politeness and civility. He lectured his sons inlaws on that issue. He thought politeness was crucial and part of being enlightened. Being polite was to be enlightened and civility was very important to jefferson. Adams knew about this but just could not help it. He said he did not have the gift of silence. Brian what kind of an environment did they grow up in . Gordon jefferson grew up in a slaveholding society. He became one of the wealthiest planters in the colony. Whereas, adams grew up in braintree with very little connections. None of the connections that jefferson had. Jeffersons mother was a randolph, one of the most prestigious families in the whole colony of virginia. He had a silver spoon. From the outset. Whereas, adams did not. So there is a big difference in their backgrounds. Massachusetts was a relatively egalitarian state compared to virginia. There were a few slaves in massachusetts, but nothing comparable to the 40 of virginia that was enslaved. So the worlds they grew up in were different. Could not have been more different. Brian what kind of students were they . Gordon they were both smart, bright students. Jefferson probably knew more about more things than any single man in north america. I include franklin in that, who would be his only rival. Everyone was impressed by jefferson, the extent of his knowledge. Adams was smart but he did not have the span. But he had some depth in history and law that jefferson did not have. Not because jefferson couldnt, but because he was not as interested in the law. In fact, although jefferson became a lawyer, he did not think of it as a career. He came to hate the law and hate lawyers. Whereas adams loved the law, the mystery of the common law and he was of course a superb counsel. He was one of the best lawyers and certainly the busiest lawyer in the colony of massachusetts. Brian tell me, how many books have you written . Of all the books you have published, and you got a lot of awards and medals, which of all of these books has been the biggest success . Gordon biggest success is one thing, i dont know how you measure it. By sales i guess. That would be the american revolution. My Favorite Book is my first, the creation of the american republic, because it was my dissertation. That is my favorite, but it is certainly not the best seller. Brian what led to your interest in that at the time and where did you do your dissertation . Gordon i went to harvard graduate school. Had no interest when i first went to graduate school. I worked with arthur schlessinger, jr. He quickly shifted to kennedy. I took a seminar with him and and suddenly i said, this early american stuff is really interesting. I have never regretted that decision. The wisest decision i ever made. Brian bernard is still alive, he is 95. Gordon we celebrated his jubilee of his ideological origins last april. This is the 50th anniversary of his book. We had a meeting, celebrating the book. A number of us who knew him. And, he is fine. He came and gave a talk. These essays, i think, going to be published. So, he is fine. He is 95yearsold. It is nice to know that you can still be doing stuff that 95. Brian it makes you feel like a youngster. Gordon yeah, thats right. Brian when did you start working on this book and why . Gordon i did the prevolumes of writing on john adams. He got three volumes. Franklin got one, jefferson, got one hamilton got one. Adams got more pages than anyone else. Coming out of that experience, i thought i would write a book on adams. He was fascinating to me. But my publisher suggested, why dont you do a comparison with jefferson . That intrigued me. I am glad he suggested that. Because i think i learned more about each of them by pitting them against each other. So that is how it arose. I originally was working on adams, but my publisher suggested comparing them, and it was marvelous. I Read Everything they wrote here and it is all available now. Either on letterpress editions are on the internet. It is just marvelous. I dedicate the book to the editors of the adams papers and the jefferson papers, because they have done all this work presenting this material to us historians and they do not get the credit they deserve, these people, these editors. Anyway, that is how it arose. Brian how do they differ in age . Gordon adams was eight years older. And that counted because when jefferson joined the Continental Congress in 1775, he saw adams as his senior and adams certainly saw him as his protege. Only eight years difference, but this younger man, that can be a lot when youre young. And jefferson played that role, which of course, in other words listened to adams opinion and probably said the right thing. Jefferson was very aware of people. I think that is where the friendship started. He deferred to adams. And that was important. Brian in your first chapter, you write, jefferson told the American People what they wanted to hear. How exceptional they were. Adams told them what they needed to know, truth about themselves that were difficult to bear. Over the centuries, americans have tended to avoid adams message, they have much preferred to hear jeffersons praise. Gordon right. Adams was a realist. He did not believe every man was created equal. He did not believe in american centralism. In american exceptionalism. We americans are no better or different from other nations, just as corrupt, just as vicious. These are things he is saying. That is not the american myth, the american dream. He took on every single dream or myth that americans live by. We could not live by adamss message, it would be too much to bear. Jefferson said what we needed to hear in some respects, because you cannot have a nation based on the notion that we are all unequal from birth. In other words, adams did not know about genetics or dna, but he believed that people are unequal from birth. He was all into nature, not nurture. Jefferson is the opposite. He was into nurture. That is what i think most americans believe. In other words, we are all born equal and our differences are due to different experiences and environments, and that is why education is so important to americans and to jefferson. Adams did not disparage education, but he said it will not make much difference. He told jefferson, i went to a foundling hospital in paris and i saw babies four days old, and already they were unequal. Some were smart, some were dumb, some were beautiful, some were ugly. He says, those differences were right there. That is not an american message. That is the jeffersonian message. That is why we honor jefferson in the way we do. We tend to honor the two men very differently. Jefferson has a beautiful memorial on the tidal basin in washington right at the mall. There is nothing for adams. Monticello is a heritage site, visited by hundreds of thousands across the world. I do not know how many people go to quincy, massachusetts. Adams home, a modest house relative to monticello. It is hard to get to. It gets a fraction of the visitors. Why . He is not in the same league. Ue. Ebrity leak leag even then, at one point, when they reconcile, the friendship broke up but they came back together in 1812 and exchanged about 158 letters. Adams wrote three to every one of jeffersons. Adams says to jefferson, how many letters do you get in a year how many do you receive . This was 1820 and jefferson said he gets 2000 something. Adams says he only gets 200. They are 10to1. Jefferson felt obligated to answer them. Jefferson was corresponding with the czar of russia and with great people. Adams was not in that league at all. So adams said, i will write more than you, because i know you are busy answering other people. He had to answer over 2000 letters. So they are in a Different League then and they still are in our consciousness. There is no way adams could compete with jefferson. Jefferson stands for america. Unfortunately, he was a slaveholder and that has tainted him badly in these days. Brian when did jefferson meet adams and what was he doing . Gordon they were in the Continental Congress. Adams was in the first Continental Congress. Jefferson did not make that one. I think he became ill. He had sent along instructions that were printed as a pamphlet. Some review of the contest between britain and the colonies, which established his name in 1774. It was a radical pamphlet. As radical as any pamphlet written up until thomas paine because he takes on the king in his pamphlet. This is to year before the declaration. It anticipates the declaration, because it goes through a series of things that the king and government were doing. That establishes his name, but he did not make the congress because he became ill. He comes to the second Continental Congress in 1775, where adams is already serving on 20 committees, including the committee on war. He is chair of many of the committees. So that when the declaration of independence, that committee is formed and they are both on it, adams is happy to have this young guy take on the drafting of the declaration, because he is busy doing other things, so little did they realize how important that declaration would become. Later of course, adams becomes quite jealous of the fame jefferson is getting. Brian during the Constitutional Convention in philadelphia, where were the two men . Gordon jefferson was minister to france and adams was minister to london. Interestingly enough, i think adams had a profound effect on the constitution, on the kind of government. Because he had written the , massachusetts constitution in 1780 and set forth a structure that gets copied by the federal government. A strong executive with a veto power. What adams wanted was absolute veto over all legislation, but he had to bend to his colleagues and he gave a limited veto. That is the reason all of our governors have limited vetoes, including the president , it is because of adams. In 1776, none of those had veto power. It is adams who pushes that. So he had an influence on the federal constitution. Even though he was not present. They are away and so they do not know about it until later. Two months later. Adams loves it, and he thinks it is pretty good because it seems to fit his own description of what a government should be. Jefferson is appalled by it. The power of the president is too great, he sees the president as a version of a polish king, a polish king was elected for life, serves for life, and then dies. Then the aristocrats would elect a new king. That is he thought the president would be. Washington served only two terms, he could not wait to get back to mount vernon, otherwise he might have stayed in office until he died. If he had not been george washington, who really was not someone who loved power. So, he leaves after his second term. He couldve stayed on if he wanted to. In so, that is how jefferson thought the presidency would be. Like a polish king, serve for life. Brian there are threads through your book, britain versus france, aristocracy versus commoners. Where were they on both of those . Explain what an aristocrat is. Gordon well, it is controversial. They actually took about this in their correspondence and their retirement years. What is an aristocrat . Adams was obsessed by oligarchy. He believed there would inevitably be oligarchs who attempt to run things. Or who attempt to run things. He feared aristocracy more than he feared monarchy or a single ruler. He was willing to give much more power to a present or a governor to a president or a governor they on jefferson. Adams is a one time, you fear the one, i fear the few. He was obsessed by aristocracy, even though he is one of them. His notion, jeffersons notion of aristocrat is talented and virtuous, like himself. He assumed that people, once educated, they will elect people like himself. Jefferson was confident of the populace. He did not fear demagoguery would take place. Adams was more fearful of democracy. He thought they would soon become corrupt and partisan and we would have to adopt lifetime tenure for the president , and for the senate. Eventually having to make them hereditary. Following the russian model. Following the english model. The question is, have we reach that point yet in our elections . He would certainly believe, i told you so. This is what happens when you have too much democracy. Jefferson had none of those doubts. None of those fears. He neveru wrote that doubted the need for christianity. Gordon right. Gordon jefferson had contempt for organized religion. He made a couple of mistakes publicly, one in his notes on virginia. He said, my neighbor believes in plenty of gods and it does not break my arm. That came back to haunt him. Most americans did not believe that. It got him into trouble. He was accused of being an atheist in 1800. He mocked christianity and thought the trinity was a joke. And so on. He would say this in private to his friends, but he did not really care much about organized religion at all and he did not think religion was all that important to people. Adams, quite the contrary. Although he was a unitarian, like jeffereson, that is they did not believe in the divinity of jesus, adams had tremendous respect for religion. He thinks it is useful and necessary. People need to have religion. He never mocked it or made fun of it. He was very different in that respect from jefferson. Brian why was so adams attached to britain and jefferson attached to france and the french revolution . Gordon the french revolution, of course a momentous event. Jefferson sees the french revolution as being influenced by ours. He sees a worldwide revolutionary wave beginning with us that will spread eventually and revolutionize the world. 10 years later, you had the french revolution, which seemed to be the first of what is going to be many revolutions. He is a complete ideologue. He is caught up in the french revolution. At one point, his successor as minister in france writes to him and says, mr. Jefferson, your friends and this is 1793 right in the middle the terror, he says, mr. Jefferson your friends are being guillotined by the thousands. Jefferson writes back, so be it, if only an adam and eve are left alive at the end, it would be worth it. That leads an irish journalist to write jefferson was the pot pol of that revolution. That is how he appeared in letters. But that was the feeling he had about this revolution. It was worth many deaths. So he is a complete radical. His ideas if he had written them out were no different than Thomas Paynes age of reason. He is in the vanguard of radical thinking but still an elected official. Adams is committed to the english constitution from the beginning. Finest in the world. He wants the republican government to be a republican model of the english constitution. He is completely taken with the english. When the revolution breaks out, england and france are in a titanic struggle over 10 years of war. Adams sympathy is with england and jefferson is with france. That is the source of their ultimate break. The two parties that emerged, the federalists are proenglish and the jeffersonian republicans are profrance. So the two men are caught as leaders of these two parties by the end of the 1790s. Brian based on what the federalists stood for back in those days, does it make sense that the conservative legal group in town is called the Federalist Society . Is called that . Gordon i think they think of it in terms of federalism, the separation between the state and federal government. Federalism. That was the name chosen by the designers, the framers of the constitution. A very shrewd title, because they should have called themselves nationalists. Because the real federalists were the antifederalist. That came out of the constitutional struggle of 1787. 1788. The Party Continues to call themselves federalists, even though they are pushing for a strong consolidated kind of national state. They get stuck with the name. I do not think the modern Federalist Society of attorneys is thinking in those terms. They are not trying to duplicate that, although it does not hurt them to that identification because they are conservative. Brian this is your w