Ailes. Why dont we start out with the talking about Harvey Weinstein. That is the story everyone is talking about right now. New atrocityme occurs like yesterday or the day before. Three more people came forward with the idea that he had raped them. This has been going on for years. Settlementsight against him. Everybody in the company knew about it. I have to say, i wonder about his wife, who i gather last night announced she was leaving him, finally. How she could possibly not have heard about this how do you think this happened . How was this allowed to go on and on and have nobody ever speak out until now . Gretchen because as a society and culture, we protect harassers. If somebody can actually tell me why that is the 20 million question, why . Is it because we are protecting our own jobs . Is it because we are protecting a person in power . I think those are the top two reasons. But now that the floodgates have been opened, i give so much credit to the women who were able to tell their stories. By the way, eight settlements. Eight have been reported. Sally that does not mean there were only eight people molested or assaulted or raped. We know there were three other people who work raped who came reaped and have not settlements. Gretchen rape is a crime. With Sexual Harassment, you dont have much time to file a claim. That is another thing we need to look into. There are so many ways we should look into laws, helping more women come forward. Especially an issue like Sexual Harassment, it is less than two years. Sally power and jobs that does not excuse the men and companies and people on the board and the lawyers and the people who had to be involved in those settlements with the eight women had to know about it. Why did they not say anything, and who are they . I want their names on the front pages. Gretchen i do, too. We would have to fill up every newspaper that ever existed. It is not just that company. They are covering it up in hundreds and thousands of Companies Across this country and the world. The big question you ask is, why do we protect the harassers . What i found out from research in my book, sometimes they even protect a low level employee who is a harasser. Someone goes into a job, they say, be careful of joe, he has been here 30 years, he has a rude sense of humor. Sure enough, a woman complains, and who do they protect . Joe. He is not a central person to the functioning of the company. He is not the ceo. But they protect joe and that woman is phased out. It is at every level. You, i feelll amazed by the Harvey Weinstein story. Sally not just you, we all do. I was horrified, but also thrilled that this came out, that he was outed, that he was fired, lost the company, that he is going into therapy, thrilled his wife is leaving him. He should be shunned. This is a huge step forward for all of us who have had these experiences, and we all have. Gretchen and it is a step forward for the enablers, the people you mentioned, who will also be called out. They are going to feel the shame that all of those women felt and they should not have. Enablers are a huge part of this problem and a huge part of this solution. Actually Sexual Harassment , training and companies should focus more on enablers than almost anything else. We should focus on how do we give the courage to the enabler to not be an enabler and come forward . It is crucial. Sally i said to you earlier as i was reading your book, i got madder and madder. It makes you crazy. You are reading onestory after the other and you think this cannot be happening today and yes it is. The reason we are here is because of your experience at fox news, your Sexual Harassment suit against roger ailes. I know you cant talk about it, but i can. I wanted to read in your complaint. Ailes has unlawfully retaliated against carlson and sabotaged her career because she refused his pervasive Sexual Harassment. Ailes retaliated against carlson in various ways, including by employment and ostracizing, marginalizing, and shunning her after making clear these problems would not have existed and could have been solved if she had a sexual relationship with him. When carlson met with ailes to discuss the discriminatory treatment, he stated i think you and i would have a sexual relationship a long time ago. And then you would be good and better and i would be good and better, adding that sometimes problems are easier to solve that way. Carlson rebuffed ailess sexual demands and then nine months later he ended her career at fox news. First of all, he was so repulsive. The idea that someone like roger ailes would think he could get away with it, that he would be attractive enough to anyone to were it notup for the outrage of what he was assuming. The reasonngs you cannot talk about it is you did resolve this lawsuit and you reached a 20 million settlement. As far as i am concerned, that was not enough. Why cant you talk about it . Is that not part of the problem . Gretchen it is. Sally in order to reach a settlement, you have to agree not to talk about it. Gretchen just as a caveat with regard to the resolution, i am giving that money away to the gift of courage fund. I want to be clear about that. And the proceeds from my book are going to the gift of courage. Settlements, yes. This is the way in which our culture has decided to resolve these kinds of cases. Over 90 of Sexual Harassment cases end up in settlement. What does that mean . The woman that he much never she never works in her chosen career ever again, and can never talk about it, she is dead. She is gagged. Resultselse do we see how else to resolve sexualharassment suits . We put in arbitration clauses in Employment Contracts for a secret proceeding. Again, nobody finds out about it if you file a complaint, you can never talk about it, ever, nobody ever knows what happens to you, and in most cases you are terminated from the company, and in many cases, he is allowed to work in the same position he was harassing you. The predator is allowed to work in the same position he was harassing you. This is the way our society has decided to resolve sexualharassment cases. Can foolmen so we everyone that we have come so far in 2017. The reason we think we have come so far is because we are not hearing about these cases. The reason we are not hearing about the cases is because the women are silent. Either through settlement or forced arbitration. Sally suppose you had said, i am bringing this case and i want to settle, but i do not want this silenced. Se. Silence clau with a have said, go away . They would have . Gretchen i was given the benefit of being able to talk about this issue openly and hear other peoples stories and talk about ways in which i think we should change laws and have a conversation right now. That is rare. Sally what do we do to change this from happening to someone else where you can file a Sexual Harassment charge and reach a settlement, but it does not include silencing you . How do we go about changing them . Gretchen the first thing, the work i am doing on capitol hill, we have to take forced arbitration clauses out of Employment Contracts, or at least take the secrecy out of it. I am working diligently to get a bipartisan bill on that. Sexualharassment is apolitical. Before someone harasses you, they do not ask what party you belong to. This is why republican and democrats should care about this equally. I have been meeting with them privately to get them on board to support this bill and take the secrecy out of it. It means if you are sexually harassed, you can file a public complaint and have a jury trial, which is your seventh amendment right. The way it works now, if you file a complaint, it is a secret, and you go to arbitration, where only 20 of the time does the victim actually win. It is not like an open court system. You cannot call the same amount of witnesses, the depositions are different, there is no appeal. And people hearing the cases are retired lawyers and judges, who may not be as adept at understanding sexualharassment in this generation. Sally or they may. Gretchen they are mostly men. Sally that is what i am saying. Gretchen they will not side with the victim. We need to start there. If i can get a bipartisan bill to pass that takes the secrecy out of this, that is a warning shot to companies that you cannot hide this kind of behavior anymore. Sally explain to me why this is not a nobrainer. When you go to the hill and talk to members of congress and say, i want this arbitration bill, i want this changed why would anyone say no . Give me a good reason. Gretchen number one big reason is because democrats are in favor of this and republicans support big business. Sally do they say, there, there, little girl, we are supporting big business . What are they saying . How do they phrase it . Gretchen they are taking meetings with me and listening. They are thinking along and hard about the ramifications of their own children. This is why i did this for their wives. Many of their wives have been sexually harassed. This is why people are so frustrated with politicians in general. They speak out on a lot of sides of their mouth. On the one hand, i think rationally theyd look at this and realize they should be on board. They have a whole other constituency. Sally lets talk about silence. The big business guys, because im sure they are guys, will go into talk to their republican andressman and lobby them say you cannot do this. And the reason, we are sexually harassing these women, and we could lose a lot of money. Gretchen they are not that blatant, but i get your point. Sally that is the only reason they could be against it. Gretchen the argument about arbitration is that it is cheaper for the employee, you dont have to hire lawyers and go through a long process of a trial. That is not really true, there are a lot of costs with arbitration. The biggest thing, Big Companies will say we are doing a service to not involve the court, because the courts are already overworked. Sally they care about the court . Gretchen it is a way to solve Small Business disputes by putting them into arbitration. Those are the arguments given. Here is the problem. When you start a new job, youre just happy to have the job and a paycheck, youre not thinking about the arbitration clause and not thinking there would be a dispute. I never thought i would be there. When you do and suddenly realize you do not have your rights anymore, that is a daunting day, because you realize you have no options and your rights have been taken away. This is what i am explaining to members of congress. Sally this was not your first experience. Tell me a couple of experiences you had before when you were 22. Experienceo or three that were pretty disgusting. Gretchen unfortunately, it is not my first day at the rodeo. It was when i was miss america, actually. May be the blessing of that was that i had built tough skin. Suddenly my resume of a concert violinist, salutatorian, stanford grad who also attended oxford evaporated. I was just a dumb blonde. Build thick skin a lot. Toward the end of the year, i started meeting with Television Executives because i knew this was a career i wanted to try. It was so nice. I made a lot of phone calls. I thought it would be a great beginning for me. We got into the backseat of the car service to take me back to my friends apartment, suddenly he was on top of me with his tongue down my throat. Andmember being panicked thinking how am i going to get out of this . I screamed for the driver to stop. I got out, not knowing where i was. I got to my friends apartment and just lost it in emotion. What did i do, why did he do this to me, did he not respect my brains, was he really trying to help me . All of that goes away. I never, ever spoke to him ever again. I guess he really did not want to help me. Unfortunately, a couple weeks later i was in los angeles meeting with a highpowered publicist i was a gogetter, knocking on doors to get a career started. Unfortunately, i was in a car again with him, and he took my head with his hand, forcefully jammed my head into its crotch so hard that i could not breathe. Sally this is better than flowers and candy . [laughter] gretchen here is the really fascinating part about this. I never really spoke openly about this story until recently. But more importantly, it was a friend, when i was telling her those stories who said to me, you realize those were both assaults . I said, what are you talking about . That is assault. I had never defined it that way before. It speaks volumes about how we normalize this as women, in culture. We think we can overcome it, so we put it aside, and we dont acknowledge it for what it is. It was actually Natasha Stoynoff who told me this. She was one of the alleged trump of victims. She said what happened to her was assault. Bell her story a in fierce because she is fierce. She was a People Magazine reporter. She was at maralago, doing a story about the president s latest child with melania. She said that when melania went up the change her clothing, he took her into a room and forcibly kissed her. She actually took herself off of that premier beat. She told people, which is huge. That is my advice in the book you need to tell people. , sally she told People Magazine at the time . Gretchen and im saying, in general, women should tell people. Tell human beings what happened, because we still live in a he said, she said culture. When i interviewed her for my book, when i was telling her what happened to me she told me , it was assault. Sally she came forward with her story. Gretchen she was listening to one of the debates where the president had said he had never forcefully kissed anyone against their will. And she thought, i dont want to be silent anymore. Sally she came out with it and had been friends with melania. I know she ran into melania on the streets and they kissed and hugged and she said, where have you been . After this story, melania denied it, said they never ran into each other, never happened. What do you say about the wives who were enabling their husbands to do this kind of thing . Melania is a perfect example. I do not know about Harvey Weinsteins wife, georgina chapman, how she could not have an inkling of this after 10 years of marriage. Gretchen i hope they can find a way in their heart also be fierce and stand up for who they are as women and give themselves more respect. Sally you mentioned jane fonda had several experiences. Gretchen she just came out of old and saidyears she was raped earlier in her career. And abused. And she had never told those stories before. This is the culture we live in, where these kinds of stories are stuffed down, and women are made to feel ashamed that something happened to them, when in essence, they were shamed. We have to turn this issue totally in the opposite direction. I do sense it is happening now. Sally Gwyneth Paltrow came forward and so did angelina jolie. I have to say, god love meryl streep for speaking out against Harvey Weinstein, who she had worked with. The issue of shame fascinates me. I have had, as all women have had, a number of experiences like this. One when i was 19 when senator john tower was supposed to take me to lunch. Then he took me to dinner and took me to a bar where i should not have gone. We got in a cab and he tried to rape me in the back of the cab. I was so ashamed, i cried for days. I did not tell anybody for a couple of years. But i started telling people. When he came up as secretary of defense, i have these two fbi agents come to the house and say, we heard about your experience and we are checking on his resume. Tell us about it. I said this is totally confidential. I said, i happen to know it is not confidential because i work for the Washington Post and we get our stories from you guys. As it turned out he was voted , down and nancy, the only republican, voted against him, because she had heard my story. And poor anita hill who is a perfect example of this did not have my experience and background. She talked to the fbi and of course they subpoenaed her and she ended up on capitol hill, and her life was ruined. I could have been anita hill. Her life was ruined, and she is now a punchline. Forgetting that she is a distinguished lawyer. I had a casting couch experience where the producer hired me to be the girlfriend in the movie flipper, about the dolphin. He said literally but you will have to sleep with me if you want the part. I said, i will have to ask my father. I did not get a call back. The producer of 60 minutes sent me to london to cover princess annes wedding. He said im going to make you a star. He came and helped me at the makeup and hair and he took me to my room one night and threw me on the bed. These are stories i never told right away. Then i did write a book about my experience. But i never told the john tower story. Gretchen why . Sally i was ashamed because i thought i should not have agreed to have lunch with him i was 19. I should not have agreed to go dinner. When he dragged me across the street to the nightclub, i should not have known. I should have known. Somehow i shouldve kept him out of the cab. It was my fault. Gretchen we blame ourselves. Sally i still feel that, and the same way about the producer of 60 minutes. What was i thinking . He was going to help me be a big star. I had no experience. I should have known better. That it was my fault that i led him on. Gretchen but it was not. Sally the john tower thing, i still feel ashamed, even to this day. How do women get over the shame of thinking we all want to look attractive. I want to look sexy when i go out at night and dress up and do my hair and makeup, and want people to think i am attractive. Where is the moment when you cross the line . When you are coming on or asking for it, as opposed to wanting to be an attractive woman . Gretchen i do not think women are ever asking to be assaulted. What i say in the book, you can be wearing a short skirt, hospital scrubs, or army fatigues, it does not matter. And you should not feel any shame. No woman should. Shame is a potent force. Sally how do they get over the shame part of it . Gretchen we talk about it. I have even seen some people say on twitter, Gwyneth Paltrow did not come forward right away, so we should discount what she is saying now. No. No, because this is how it starts. We should never shame a woman who comes forward at all, i do not care when, ever. We should then realize, eve