And the professor were physically attacked following the event. Ost professor Allison Stanger what is the famous middlebury protest . The story has been told many times. A Student Group, the aei club is aed Charles Murray, who rather controversial figure, libertarian scholar. Because the newly he was controversial, he invited me to ask in the first three or four questions. It went from there. In march. Ck the event was on march 2 and there was a run up to the event where tensions rose and rose to the point where they were whipped into a frenzy so that some student organizers shut down the speech that was successful. We had an alternative plan, we went to a remote location. In enraged some of the protesters further and that is rate got the incident where i was injured outside the lecture hall. Host Middlebury College is where . Allison Middlebury College is in the greenmount server mod, champlain valley. In some sense you can in part explain the reaction because it is a bubble within a bubble. Arts campus is something of a bubble because liberal learning takes place there. It is also in vermont, which is the home of ben jerrys, Bernie Sanders and the state of the union with the smallest percentage of voters who voted for donald trump. That context is very important for what transpired. Host how many students. Small. 2350, fairly found the number 63,000 online that said that is what tuition and living cost for a year. Allison yes, an expensive proposition. We make an effort to make the experience as available to as many capable people as possible. There are a significant number of students at middle barry on full financial aid. Even a greater number pays that enormous amount. Where did you get your education . Allison i got it in two places. I was a student at a Small Liberal Arts College outside of chicago for three years. I was a math major. I loved mathematics at the time. Iran ran out of math classes to take my senior year. A senior residency requirements i was going to have to take electives from other departments. I transferred to Ball State University where i could do applied mathematics and graduate in the great state of indiana. Host your city is what . My city is fort wayne. Did you get a masters and then a phd but or your phd. Did take some time to her out what interests you and why. I went on to the London School of economics. Studies atsoviet Harvard University followed by a phd in Political Science at harvard. Trajectory from questions that really have answers. What i like about mathematics to some the unanswerable questions. I embrace both of those strands in my thinking and in my teaching. Hell on have you been at Middlebury College . I went there directly after graduate school. Host the semester this year you are and i will a very middle barry . I had a scheduled sabbatical so i am a scholar at the new america foundation. Host what does it do . It is a think tank in washington that helps me work on my buttocks and provides a great environment for me to do that. I teach range of courses. I am trained in international relations, but i have an interest in variety of fields fields. Empire, newminar in course of the politics of virtual realities, i am leaving some things out, but that covers the main courses i am known for. View of your your relationship with students over these 25 years . Students and i think they love me back. I am seeing as an honest broker. Student groups asked me to interview Charles Murray, but then two weeks later, interviewed Edward Snowden. Im equal opportunity. Yeah, i have been very happy at middlebury because i do teaching, research, and writing. But with the teaching, i am absolutely sure at the end of the day that i have made a difference in the world because there is nothing like opening up someones mind. That is what teaching is all about. Host did the students protest Edward Snowden at all . Prof. Stanger no. Host why is that, you think . Prof. Stanger it is pretty straightforward. Most College Campuses are leaning left. And then those terms left and right dont mean anything today, but they are voting democratic. So republican scholar is controversial to them. Which is unfortunate because the Republican Party is the other major party and the united states, but that is what it is. Revered by the left and protest when he is on campus. I would like to see that remedied. It is very important, even though my students know i am a democrat, it is all the more important to engage with someone \like Charles Murray because it shows that i agree with free and fair speech. You have to have your liberal education for that to take place. Host i looked up the ethnic population in vermont and found that there are 2. 5 African Americans in the state and in and the of middlebury sound is now. 25, which is almost nonexistent. What does that do for the topic you are discussing . Stanger vermont is one of the whitest states in the union. And middlebury is bringing in students from a vast array of different backgrounds, students of color. They land in vermont, there is no one who can cut their hair, they feel completely out of place any have to do something to make them feel like this is their institution to. I think it is really easy to paint it as a story of conservative versus students of color, but really what is taking place is that we have a situation where American Values are at stake. And they dont belong to a particular party, or a particular identity group. They belong to all americans. And i think that is at the heart of this issue we are discussing. But i would not want to downplay the anguish that was expressed through those protests and through the shutdown because emotions are real and need to be validated, but the most important part is ok, you feel that way, but what do we need to do about it so that it is different . How can we move this forward and make it a better place for you . From my perspective, it is not about shutting down speech, or banning certain speakers from campus. It is about talking together about how we make the environment a place where everybody belongs. Host how often have you met someone who teaches at middlebury who is conservative . Prof. Stanger there is not that many. Host have you ever met anybody . Prof. Stanger oh, of course. And they are some of my great friends because they are so interesting to talk to. I myself at middlebury benefited enormously from talking to people there. There were professors you could disagree profoundly, but that interaction was so important for my own personal development that i want it to be available to other students. Murray appeared on this program in 1995. He talked about the bell curve. I want to run this. Book is about this distribution, this change, what about the bell curve . We heard it and it was one of those cases where he said, yeah, that is a wonderful title. Host what does it mean. it looks like a bell. It is a phenomenon that you see in all kinds of things in nature, whether it is tight, whether it is height, weight, or iq. You get most people in the middle and a few people on each end, and the book is about the people on each end. How much did you not about host how much did you not about this when he was slated to come to middlebury . Prof. Stanger i know about the whole bell curve controversy. I used it in the republic symposium that had other critics write about the book, and i used it in a first year seminar on american constitutional democracy. I thought it really affected the pedagogical device precisely it provoked students and got them angry. But then, i said, where does it say that . And then they realized they liked the bottom line of the argument, but they needed to focus on what chain in that logical reasoning, or set of assumptions that is problematic for them . That is an incredibly useful exercise. So you take that kind of initial shock, if you will, and channel it into reason discussion, and i think everybody learned something. Host in reading about before you came today, or about the incident back in march, i saw some reference to the Southern Poverty Law Center and a description of Charles Murray, and one of the reasons why the students reacted the way they did. We got on their website, and i want to read you the beginning of what they say. Charles murray, a fellow at the American Enterprise institute has become one of the most influential social scientist in america, using racist pseudoscience and misleading statistics to argue that social inequality is caused by the genetic inferiority of the black and latino communities, women, and the poor. And he goes on to say about him, according to murray, disadvantaged groups are disadvantaged because on average, they cannot compete with white men, who are intellectually, psychologically, and morally superior. He advocates the total elimination of the welfare state, affirmative action, and the department of education are arguing ways that it is because of inmate efficiencies. My question to you is, is that accurately per train Charles Murray . Is that accurately portraying Charles Murray. Prof. Stanger absolutely not. The frightening thing about that website is that in the runup to his appearance on campus, you had faculty and students alike taking what you read to me, and said, this man cannot speak here, even though you cant substantiate some of those assertions. If you go and look at those quotes in context, he is often saying the opposite of what they are saying he is saying. So, it was a terrible situation that i think led to what happened, that people did not think for themselves, didnt read for themselves in the didnt just come in here what he had to say first before drawing conclusions about his character and past work, but it was like something you could not control because people just kept reading that website and saying that was all they had to know. We had faculty at Middlebury College who had openly admitted they had never read Charles Murray, but because of the website, this is all you needed to know to know that you could do to be a righteous human being. Run 25 just want to seconds of the footage at middlebury protests so people can get a sense of what it was like. Before we do though, where was this room . How big of a room was it . Prof. Stanger i think it could fit 300. It is the same place two weeks later in which i interviewed Edward Snowden. Host and the format of the evening, how did that come about . Prof. Stanger it was restricted to students only, so you have to have a middlebury id to be admitted into the lecture hall. There were outside agitators, but they were not inside the lecture hall. So what you are seeing inside the lecture hall is all middlebury students. Host lets just look at this and get a feel for it. [chanting] Charles Murray, go away charles murphy, go away racist, sexist, antigay charles murphy, go away racist, sexist, antigay charles murphy, go away racist, sexist, antigay. Post host Charles Murray, go away, racist, sexist, antigay. Is any of that true . And didnt his daughter go to middlebury . Prof. Stanger his daughter went to middlebury, and i would not use any of those terms to describe that man. Host why were the students doing that . Prof. Stanger it was a tragedy. There was a small minority of students who wanted to shut the speech down, and there were allies that wanted to be supportive. I know student after student who went there who did things he were planning to do precisely because of that small minority was so outraged, and so angry that they felt that to be a good human being, you had to do the same thing. Host what are they angry about . Prof. Stanger about the gross inequality in the united states, about the existence of unequal treatment before the law and our criminal justice system. About the election of donald trump, which none of those students wanted. We have real problems in this country that need to be addressed. They were legitimate in being concerned, but the tragedy to me is that the strategy they pursued brought about the very opposite of what they hoped to accomplish. Host Charles Murray is at the American Enterprise institute. This was the American Enterprise institutes Student Group . Prof. Stanger it was a club like any other club. Host was he paid to go to middlebury . Prof. Stanger no, nobody paid him anything. I am not part of the club, i dont know, but my understanding is host by the way, did you have to pay snowden . Prof. Stanger he was paid a large amount of money. Host who wouldve paid him . Prof. Stanger the middlebury activities board. That was a students choice speaker. Host we have video of you after this erupted. You moved out of that room. How long did the demonstration go on . Prof. Stanger it just accelerated from their precisely because the speech was not shut down. It just enraged that small group of people who were determined to shut it down. So there were fire alarms going off, people screaming obscenities through the window. I dont know what clip youre going to show. Host it is you sitting down with Charles Murray. Prof. Stanger i have not watched it because it is so unsettling to me. Precisely because they used these directional microphones. So what we were hearing is not what you are hearing on the tape. It is enhanced so you can hit a conversation, but it was absolutely terrifying to continue. Host how far ahead of this that this did you know something was going to happen . Prof. Stanger i didnt think anything was going to happen. Before i walked out the door when we were confronted with the crowd that injured me, i said, i left my computer in the car, and i will go separately and meet you at the dinner. Host had you met Charles Murray before . Prof. Stanger no, but i knew of him and knew that he was some of the Republican Party takes very seriously. It was precisely the person i want my students to engage in. If we were a department of Political Science only allows the views of democrats to appear just anampus, were indoctrination center. We are not an institution of higher learning. Host lets go back you moved to this other room. Was that set up in advance . Prof. Stanger yes. Host Television Cameras in their . Prof. Stanger yes, yes. That was the plan be. Host and how far away was the representative. Prof. Stanger it was in the basement of the building. I wish it was further away. Host this again was only 30 seconds. It is a place with a lot of you go to 1960 which is just a few years later. I told people to put on the fire alarms. Hold on just a second and they will turn those off. Prof. Stanger this is unique in my academic career. Attending in my home state of indiana in richmond. Anyways, how long did you richmond. Host anyways, how long did you talk to Charles Murray . Prof. Stanger i think it was roughly 30 or 45 minutes. We took questions from our students on twitter. That was kind of nice. Host any of the students in the room stay with this hope process . Prof. Stanger yes. On the one hand there is a coalition of students who are united in wanting to challenge Charles Murray but in a variety of ways. Some want to shut him down and some students to participate in statement whouiry , asked questions on twitter, so they stayed with it. They wanted to engage him. So the main message i would want to give to your audience is there is a variety of views at middlebury. It is not the monolithic, extremists place. It was just a small part of the population voice was amp you put amplified in a variety of ways. Did this start with the students are with one of your fellow professors, or both . Prof. Stanger the shutdown . Host the whole idea of trying to shut it down . Prof. Stanger there were all of these meetings before hand that my colleagues attended them or they were discussing resistance. The interesting thing is that all of the students who organized the resistance were used to being unanimously applauded by the faculty. For example, with the executive order against immigration, some of the same students involved in the protest against Charles Murray were involved in that resistance, and they have the whole faculty behind them. I was there with my constitution, and waving my american flag. And everybody supported them. And what was so disappointed them with this is that they were taking it to the next level by shutting it down. And everything fractured. And they were condemned by a large number of people. And they were expected to be praised. That is part of the educational process. They made a mistake and have to think about what that means. Host at the end of your discussion with Charles Murray, you left that room and went where and what happened . Prof. Stanger they took us to this, the fact of the matter is, i dont really remember much of it. I couldnt even tell you what door we went out of. But we were taken out of the hall and constructed out of the hole and confronted with a mob of angry people. Their target was Charles Murray. And i was a little bit behind him. And it kind of intensified. It looked like he was about to fall to the ground. And at the time, he was a 74yearold man. And i did what any decent person would do, i grabbed him by the arm to make sure he didnt fall. And i dont know how many, but i was really fearful of being separated and being left behind. So i took his arm, and then it all turned on me. Somebody pulled my