Latest jeffrey hello, everyone. Welcome to the latest installment. This has been going on, seemingly forever. Because behind we go behindthescenes to talk about some of our latest reporting and writing. I will remind you that next month we are hosting our atlantic festival, this time digitally. It will have certain advantages, namely you do not have to get dressed up to go to the festival. Please stay tuned for more information and we will be delivering that you regularly. Today we will talk with ed yong. If you are watching, i assume you already know who he is. He is the preeminent pandemic reporter. He is certainly one of the most important reporters working in america today. His stories about the pandemic have not only told us what is going on, but they have helped us to orient around what we should think about what is going on. He has been on this subject for a while. His recent piece is on the cover of this months atlantic, the print edition of the atlantic. You can read it online at atlantic. Com. I know you have a lot of questions and i will incorporate them into our conversation as best as possible. Type them into the box at the bottom of the screen. Keep them short, not sweet but directed. I will try to get to as many as possible and also let them guide my questions. Let me just bring him in. Are you with us . Ed yong i am. Jeffrey goldberg that he is with his air pods. What i want to do today, in the short time that we have is to talk about the past, present and future. Lets start in the past. I do not mean the distant past. I need a couple years ago, we were talking, probably about three years ago. We had a shared interest in pandemics and in government response to crisis. We decided that you were going to go off and do a story about a theoretical problem. His the country ready for the next pandemic . We had written about the Obama Administration response to Ebola Outbreak in the late administration of the obama late stage of the Obama Administration. I was curious to know what it would be like, what a Pandemic Response would be like under a different kind of president. He went all around the world to the congo, to the source, and you did a lot of reporting in washington and elsewhere. Your conclusions were complicated. He said in some ways, you are comforted by what you found out, but mainly, your anxiety level increased a bit. Talk about what you found out in 2018, and that will carry us to where we are now. Ed yong the biggest thing that, preparedness is this abstract, nebulous concept. It comes down to people. It is a bunch of experts with the right know how to deal with the pandemic, and it is also physical, tangible objects. Whether there are enough beds in a hospital, whether there is enough protective equipment or drugs, or manufacturing plants. I remember the time, tony fauci, who has become a household name it is like having a chain. One link and everybody everything breaks. The other amazing idea for the piece i went to the democratic republic of the congo that had experienced an Ebola Outbreak. People forget and become complacent. There is panic when an outbreak happens and neglect when it dissipates. We seem to be perpetually locked into this cycle of panic and neglect. That is why it is important for us to publish that piece in peace times, when there was no pandemic knocking down our door. This is the moment where we need to find the weak links and ensure that they are fixed. Jeffrey goldberg sorry to sound pessimistic for a moment, but honesty requires me to say that this is an indication a compelling piece that was highly lauded yet not heard. Ed yong that was frustrating. This pandemic happened, a lot of people asked me and there were many other reporters and Health Experts who warned about pandemics for years, if not decades. Do you feel any sort of vindication . No. There is only tragedy. There are calls for action that are unheard. They are deeply introspective. For our society. There were things that i feel i missed out and did not discuss in that piece. This new one on the cover of our current issue, to write some of those, to fill in some of those holes and provide an even more thorough template of what went wrong and what needs to be fixed for the future. Jeffrey goldberg i want to get to that statement you made about how there are things you think that you missed the first time around. Before that, give the listener, those who are watching now give some sketch of your findings in this current piece. Was it all the links of the chain that collapsed simultaneously . Ed yong a little bit of column a and a little bit from column b. It does have a pivotal role in what went wrong, but one of the cool points that i hope came across is that trump is part of the story, but not the whole part. Everything from the stretched nature of our hospitals to understaffed nursing homes, overstuffed prisons to ventilation systems in our building due to underfunding of Public Health. Many people have pointed at other countries like new zealand, vietnam, slovakia and other areas that have done better at controlling the pandemic. It is not that there was one universal playbook. Some places did not do enough testing. Some places did not use masks. The u. S. Has failed spectacularly because he failed across the board. We did so many things wrong. Despite the numerous advantages we had going for us, the biomedical expertise and incredible agencies like the cdc. So much expertise and logical might, yet we have dramatically underperformed. Trump deserves blame and takes responsibility for that, but how did it come to this . I think that is spectacularly missing the point. If that is the lesson that we draw from this, we will not take this opportunity to fix other vulnerabilities that were very much in play, that we are going to do any better for the pandemic in the future or if we are going to make any progress with the current one. You noted that trump is, himself, a comorbidity. You have a lot in our country. I promised you chronology, but i am violating that promise. Talk you little bit about something you mentioned, which is not the parts that you got right, which are many, but you suggested you missed several things. Is this worse now than what you thought in 2018 . I think so. I did not think that america would screw this up to the extent that it has. I think it has truly fumbled in a way that a country of its resources should not. I think it should be a humbling experience for the u. S. In terms of global health, they have long held the position of being a leader. It sports expertise to other nations. It is supposedly rich and developed, yet for all of these advantages, 4 of the World Population accounts for a quarter of covid19 cases. Even those figures are clearly underestimates because we are unable to adequately test enough people to really get a handle on how widespread this pandemic is. Health inequalities is a major one. There is no mention of them in 2018, but it is evident to those following it that it should disproportionately affect poor and disabled communities who have experienced poor health and Poor Health Care as a result of longstanding issues of racism, of discrimination. The fact that health care has been deliberately pushed away from black communities for decades, not centuries, going back to the end of the civil war im jim crow era. We should have known that covid19 was clearly going to disproportionately impact and kill black people. Not something that i really delved into in 2018, but something that is a central pillar of understanding americas failure now. It is a big issue. It has caused so much fear and anxiety. We have long known them to be radicalization engines. They provide people with attention grabbing, engagement hogging content that is often wrong and dangerous and highly in may created. Not only do we have 70 vulnerabilities, but they were all predictable and they have all been discussed by subparties beforehand. Nothing in that piece should be new. Nothing and it had never been discussed before. When you put them all together, you get a recipe for disaster. Let me push back let me push back on one thing he said. Blame this on one man to blame this on one man. The coronavirus emerged out of china in 2013. It was when barack obama was president. Do you really think, all else being equal, that we would be five months into the spread to the u. S. , that we would be where we are with barack obama as president . I do not there is a vast gulf of difference. Not will to infectious disease, but other things like honest communication. Respect for science and evidence. The problems that the Trump Administration has manifested over the last several months, holy predictable. The morning of advice from people who know better. The inconsistent tweeting. The rash claims. The constant lying and misinformation. These are things that everybody knew. Even before the big 2018 piece, exactly how trump would behave, come a pandemic, based on his behavior during the ebola crisis and during his election. An effective border control, tweeting irrationally, spouting conspiracy theories, failing to heed the advice of experts, which is exactly what happened. Trump has shown us who he is, right from the start. Do i think that things would have been different, had a more evidencebased, calm her, frankly a more intellectual leader had been in place . Yes, i think it would have been different, but there were still all these vulnerabilities that would have existed and manifested in a smaller way, but still in a real way. Under an Obama Administration, a pandemic would still disproportionately hit people from marginalized groups. Maybe the magnitude diabetes and obesity. Obama did not offend the curve on those issues. Absolutely. It is interesting that you bring up those conditions because those are conditions that predispose to covid19, that they are also the consequences on a long legacy of discrimination and racism that we talked about. That legacy would have always existed. In some ways, the greater magnitude of the crisis now has exposed some of these fault lines that might still be invisible, or at least were visible to those it negatively infected but invisible to those in a position of privilege and power. Do you really want we can go back to a public status quo, one in which we have competent leadership and the pandemic is not as bad as it could be, or one where we argue that even decent leaders have some work to do. We need to fix that longstanding foundational rock, so it is not just the next performance is acceptable, but laudable. I want to ask you a question specifically, as an insider outsider, someone who is very much here and american, but is very much so has an outsider perspective on American Society. I hate to talk in a journalistic cliche, but this is america, my land of contradictions question. This is a country that has the best science in the world, in many cases. It also has a very large population, all the way into the leadership of one of the two Major Political parties, that has a kind of oppositional antiscience standards. Could you analyze why this which developed richly developed country with Technology Companies and the best universities how do you explain to people outside this country why the reaction to masking, for instance, is so profound and political . How do you explain this to yourself . With some difficulty. With a bizarre sense of bafflement. Being a country of paradoxes is correct. We spend the largest amount on health care. The idea that we should be invested in Public Health and have such massive inequality is perplexing. The idea that we have some of the best scientists and the deepest well of scientific expertise in the world, yet should have should be in a position so easily pulled politicized it is galling. One position is this idea of america being highly individualistic. A lot has been said about how their rugged individualism has contributed to its problems during the pandemic. The masks being a good example, with some people saying it is an infringement on their freedom. We have this sense of america being highly individualistic, yet the country was willing to take action with social distancing. We were just restricting our movement during the spring. Masks are heavily political, but they have gone from zero acceptance to majority acceptance. In a matter of months. It is that 25 . It is concentrated in certain areas. We are both in washington. I do not see anybody without a mask. Your point is actually worth noting because you are saying it is not as if the country that half the country is in thrall to a weird version of individualism. You are saying pockets, but at what point do you have to shrink it down to the point where we can come out of this . The way i see it, the idea that we have gone from zero to majority acceptance in a few months is mind blowing. That has never happened. The idea that we have done that in this particular country is incredible. It almost makes the tragedy worse because i think imagine what could have happened if you had a leader in position, who said wear a mask, very consistently wear a mask. In his meetings, clear and consistent with the people. The American People has made tremendous strides against stereotypes with this longstanding stereotype, despite having such confusing messages from the conservative media and the government. It is almost like they were working for their self interest, against people who were meant to be leading and representing them. Imagine what would have happened if there had been leadership that gave them the right messages. We would be in a very different position. If you had a president who was arguing that demanding masked man is an infringement on freedom if you had a president who said you also have to wear pants. That is also an infringement on your rights to go around without pants. Some of it is so obvious. That is where the tragedy is. The counter arguments, that these arguments are so obvious. Given all of the things you have a pretty comprehensive list in your story of all of the specific reasons things have gone so wrong here. Given your analysis of American Society being more responsive than stereotype. I am asking you to do the impossible, which is to protect even the near future. Do you think that we are in any way coming out of this in a way i say this sardonically. Highly functional societies like italy to figure it out. I think it is increasingly tough to predict. I will pieces in march and april about what we should do. I am struck that the gulf between what we should do and what we can do is best. The distance is larger than i anticipated. The good news is that this is still not some ridiculous, uncontrollable pathogen that we have no solutions to. We do actually know what works. We know that masks make a difference. Indoor spaces and crowds increase risk of infection. Know that basic Health Measures can make a difference. We know very clearly that periods of social distancing actually work. The problem is, because that period was wasted, because the sacrifice americans made was largely squandered, things can get better. We have many months into this crisis. We are in a situation where people are asking themselves it is almost like someone these people want something new. We have so far struggled to control the virus. We therefore need a big, new thing that will save us. That is not the case. We have tried we did not do the right things well enough, so we need to go back and keep on doing them. One last thing. On top of that, the problem is that we are in this very difficult situation, where there are not good options. Opening schools, opening colleges, what happens when it gets colder . We are in this difficult situation because we did not do enough in the first place. Stay on this for a second because i have heard various people saying the answer to the problem is if anybody everybody in america stays home for four to six weeks, shut everything down again and four to six weeks should solve much of the problem. Do you agree with that . It is short thinking. I do not think people will do it. I do not think leaders are capable of forcing people to do it. It is doing a lot of heavy lifting day. A lot of people simply will not be able to do that for their livelihoods. That community is disproportionately poor, black and brown. We will have the same problems as before. The shutdowns were never intended to fix the problem on their own. They were intended to allow us to suppress the virus by buying us time. Without that peace restricting ourselves it only buys time that you then have to use. If we go back into it with that mindset, we will once again squander that time. There is no single fit. Whether we have the political will to do that, i do not know. Maybe it comes down to individual citizens making the right choices, looking after each other and deciding who they want to vote for in november, and we will see. We have a lot of questions about vaccines and some of them about schools. As a thought experiment, do you think that we could be in a situation in january imagine that joe biden wins over donald trump. Can you imagine a situation in which the situation is so bad in the country. The Biden Administration has 10 another, almost total shutdown or trying to impose a total shutdown . Even if it is to buy time for experts to come up with a solution to the problem . This is barring the development of a useful vaccine. I do not know if we will ever need to go back to such an extreme measure again. Clearly, the cost is enormous. This is a patchwork pandemic. I do not think we will get to the point where all of america will be forced to do the same thing again. I do not think it is financially or or financially or emotionally viable. Without the long delays that we are currently seeing, i think that if a president can truly marshaled the scientific expertise at the countrys disposal, which is best i think we have a shot. So many roadmaps have been developed on how to control the pandemic. There is no shortage of expertise. I would hope a new administration would listen to the sociologist talking about paid sick leave. That could make a difference without needing to rely too much on nickel blitz. It has already been speaking loudly. Susanna asks a question. Can we trust trumps vaccine, a. K. A. Operation warp speed . Do i think that we will have a vaccine, eventually . Yes. Some of the early signs are promising. Everything everyone in the biomedical community are doing what they can. I am not reassured by some of the frederick around vaccine development. It needs to be safe and effective, which requires time. The prospect that it will be rushed for a october surprise, i do not think w