In the region. I also really want to thank our partners, the new europe center, for all the support they have provided. It is a perfect lineup of speakers ready to contribute tonight. Today, we want to dig a little bit more into the subject of ukraine and georgia relationship with nato, and especially how these countries fit [cheers and applause] [no audio] announced by nato secretarygeneral jan stoltenberg. Eventually, this process may to a new strategic concept, and this is not a luxury. The current one dates back to 2007, if i am not mistaken, so i would argue there is a need to rethink nato strategy. The world has certainly changed in the last 10 years. Theink, for instance, about increased presence of china and the European Security landscape. The continued assertiveness of russia and key regions for transAtlantic Security, but also new challenges. Hybrid warfare and cyber attacks. The alliance needs to address these challenges. That also includes how nato engages with partners. It is crucial that countries like ukraine or georgia are reflection this 2030 process, because increasingly, natos adaptation is depending also on their relationship with partners. Nutshell, these are issues we should discuss today. The 2030xpect from reflection process, why does this process matter, and what is the role of partners like ukraine or georgia . Experts on the panel will give us an exclusive preview of a report that they wrote on this subject, so let me actually panel of our speakers today. The director of the new york center, welcome to you. The cofounder of the Georgian Institute for strategic studies, europeanber of the parliament and also actually a experts, the group of of the nato reflection process. Thank you very much for taking the time to be with us. Expecting olga to join us, the deputy Prime Minister for European Affairs for transatlantic integration of ukraine. [inaudible] we will obviously include her in this conversation. This conversation is on the record. We will first turn to our speakers, but then also go to you, the audience, for q a. We really want this to be an interactive debate, so feel free, do use the zoom chat function. I will be closely monitoring that and transferring your questions to our panelists. Minutes leftout 60 and one ofnversation the officers of this report [inaudible] track. N which priorities do you see emerging . Good evening. Good evening from kiev. Let me thank brussels for the Great Partnership in organizing this event. Alsonk the discussion is indeed proper, because as we just before we joined the nato Reflection Group members, the secretary general of stoltenberg in order to present their ideas and their contributions to make the reflections for 2040. With regards to ukraine, we are pretty sure that in order to be envisioned, in order to be comprehensive, nato reflections for 2014 need to take into account georgia. We, with our georgian partners from the Georgian Institute, developed joint ukrainiangeorgian accommodations through the reflection process. Will accommodations [inaudible] and we are happy we can discuss them today as well. We believe the treaty caneorgian find for the 2040 reflection process. The previous document made reference to cooperation with the russian federation. I think it is of fundamental importance, the new strategic documents that reflect all materialitys as a new challenger to Atlantic Security. And the changing dynamic. Forget that when we are talking about ukraine and georgia, we are talking about a double who have meaning, or are playing double roles. Aspiringies that are to become nato members. Let me elaborate on that a little bit. . Do ukraine and georgia the gop program, the demonstration of the two theiries contributions to operations and mission, as well of between [inaudible] both countries have proven they , butot only contributed to europes Atlantic Security. They have taken an effective part in the alliance contribution and operations. Ukraine, for example, is the only partner to correctly contribute this to all nation natoled operations. Are two of georgia the three countries that are not made no members. Membership in nato [inaudible] conscious, it is a and responsible choice of our country, ukraine and georgia. [inaudible] policy and security priorities. We should support a level of and a level society. This is probably the first time in ukraines history that there was a change of president and call ofnt, and the major integration has not been challenged for a while. About thee talking nato membership, we are not suggesting. Ukraine and georgia will become nato members. Plan thatship action we can see, ukraine and georgia as our next logical step in the european integration. This is mentioned as the next georgia onaine and their path to remember path to membership. Applicationth the of this, it would not be selective. Actuallynd ukraine should be a roadmap to the membership, and amongst other things, i think it is important willntion that this policy encourage georgia and ukraine to improve practices and advance natosgenda, because policy remains in up report and policymakers. It helps our countries institutions, both locally and militarily. This is also natos interest to support the interests of the countries. By doing so, nato will expand the community of likeminded, faithful, and predictable democracy. Is in natos interest as well. [inaudible] of the region. [inaudible] our strategic location put both ukraine and georgia at the center of any debates in the region. A joint assessment of participation with georgia and ukraine. [inaudible] last but not least, in our view, [inaudible] georgia and ukrainian can be successful in identifying the life. S faced by the conflict, or in which russia has initiated, because we should remember that russia at the moment is the frozenone producer of. It is a convenient place to undermine international law, which involve smuggling, which involve. Andink i will stop here turn now more to our recommendations. Thank you very much. This was a very good kick off i would say. I appreciate you going over ukraines role, not only as a consumer, but as a security provider. I think that is a pretty important point. Going back to the georgian point of view, i am making a plea to better consider the role of Companies Like georgia and ukraine in the process. What would be your recommendation from a georgian perspective . Thank you very much. First of all, thank you very much to the organizers and to our partners for producing this report. It is great, because i actually do see a huge value in hearing the voices. If you look at how the realities on the ground, but also the dynamics are changing, i think the value of the partners will be increasing in years to calm, because the collective defense as such is going to be you have to have a holistic view about the collective defense. Have been in that close cooperation and partnership nowadays and if seeing the natural resolution of this partnership for 30 years and have been reliable partners throughout this time, in a neighborhood which actually sees a very unpredictable environment has been stably democratic, i would say, maybe not consolidated, of oars, but we are still trying to keep ourselves on the track of being democratic. I think that is extremely important. Mentioned, we have been contributing to international security. Georgia is small, ukraine is bigger than us, but we were trying to punch above our weight , because in spite of having these terrible problems of our own, i think that georgia and ukraine have made a very serious case about being a contributor, but also credible throughout this time. I want to take a Bigger Picture view right now of why i think it is a window of opportunity for both sides, for nato and for georgia and you rain. The region has seen a very dramatic change of the dynamics about aecent weeks, for month and a half, and we have a very different status quo right now. Many see this not only as a perception level right now, but also on a practical level, as a weakness of the west in the way, seeing it as pushed out or cut out of a region which it actually, conditionally has been always present in. Nowadays, the status quo actually says something else, and considering that, and considering that georgia and ukraine remain prowestern for quite some time, i think for nato and for the ones coming up should think about what is going to be the value of these countries in different dimensions. I will try to explain what are these dimensions. I will talk about the dimensions, the military ones, but also something we have to be thinking about, which provided there is going to be a rethinking in washington, probably, after the new administration comes in. Some of the points that are going to be made already are pretty interesting and away, because i think there is going to be a new thinking for the region as well. With that in mind, i would like to make two cases now. This is also part of our report, but i think young democracies deservergia and ukraine to have a better understanding traction,e better because they are the ones who have proven to continue the thecratic trend in region. Others are looking up at us. Belarus, many of the people are thinking everything is deadlocked in our region as well. Then there was a very Interesting Development in armenia. Everyone was thinking that that is not going to happen, but it a happening because they heed successful of being present in the vicinity, or the region. If you have young democracies like georgia or ukraine and you give them a chance, an open door policy the selectivity of the opendoor policy definitely shouldnt be the case, because while we are building this case, there is a very clear political message. We do have a clear political message for quite some time, but those messages should be sent out my more practical means. Frankly speaking, you know, no one in the region has a problem with the practical side of our operation, with nato. We are enhanced opportunities partners, we have very good initiatives, and these will continue for quite some time. When it comes to political sides , we are still understanding the that are behind. For nato, as you rightly mentioned, it also gives relevance to nato, because nato has to find itself to be relevant. Much more than just military considerations, but it gives them the power of the they can have. I think that is a very important element. When it comes to strategic considerations, both georgia and ukraine are not indispensable to natos eastern plan. I think they are extremely important. Why . We are transit routes, we are infrastructure hubs, one way or have been trying to get away from the russian cloud to be independent and to have a free hand. Let it be land, maritime, or air , cargo is extremely important. In the years to come, we will see that other players will be answering the region. Right now, it has been more cautious for some of them, but china is definitely having plans to get more fdr i. They are thinking about various projects. We can talk about that as well. There is going to be a turkey connection, which is a member of nato, but with increasingly independent policy. That is a new factor, i think, that all of us have to be thinking about. Georgia is a partner and is an ally of turkey, and has been continuing for quite some time. Of course, we have russia. Socalledays has quotation marks, a special understanding of where they are and why they are in the region. Considering the inclusion of georgia and ukraine and a new wave of political extension will be extremely important. There is a greater value to nato as well, because nato has space in the black sea, everyone recognizes them, that the needs to bek reinforced. Everyone understands that. Let me just ask you to round up here, because we want other speakers to intervene. Just two more minutes, one minute . 30 seconds. 30 seconds, ok. Georgia and ukraine are indispensable when it comes to the plan southeast of the alliance. I think that is extremely important, and there are different ways, and i can talk later about initiatives, which will be coming up shortly. Lets get back to some of your points. We want to an interactive debate, so lets have time for everyone to intervene. Joiningu very much for us and you presented some of your conclusions today with the nato leadership. I would love to hear your insights there, but also perhaps let me give you this question, if i may. Almost 10 years ago, nato also had a group of experts which was then chaired by madeleine right, and there it their job was to advise on nato 2020. I remember the big debate back then was whether nato should be unalliance that should be engaged globally or if it was o focus on article five territory. You think the debate today is different . Has strengthened its partnerships, it needs to be outward looking. I will answer your question, very quick. Butdebate goes on, surely, iou an explanation. Able toay we were for nato secretarygeneral. Unfortunately, for todays meeting, we are still obliged to by thelent until obliged nato foreign ministers, silence until there debate, which is to happen on december 1. Then our report is to become public. Patienceintain some. I am so much intertwined in the affairs of georgia and ukraine both countriesy to nato, which might be interesting to all of you. I still remember my visit to ukraine. It was august of 2006. Standing together with the foreign minister in front of a panel of journalists. We were debating ukraines eventual exception to International Organizations like the eu, and there were some remarks about nato as well. I would say the spirit about nato was rather not was rather it negative. Everyone was afraid of speaking openly about nato, although i know the will was already there at that time. Years ande last six for itsfighting territorial integrity made a change within public perception. Also, engagement of ukraine in between, ukraine signed a Framework Agreement well. Ou as in my previous capacity as chairwoman on security and defense, i met both ukraine and georgian soldiers in many nations all over the world. Truly, i can prove with my own are that both countries for a newof Security Member states and nato allies. That is true. That is true. Both countries are extremely important, and same with georgia. I still remember talking to numerous representatives of nato and most predominantly georgian population it is most prominently the most pronato in the world. Now within nato, we tend to complain about public support, necessity to extend public ensure, torograms to populations of the value and benefits and contributions of nato to world security. Evident theia is it major part of society thinks like this . Positive in both countries. Remember another event. [inaudible] i was sent by him to consult some. In particular, those who were reluctant about both countries at this time. Bucharest ofd in course, as well, so i remember the debates and all engagements. Eyesthing jumped before my and those discussions. Was a promise in bucharest, and i think both become natoll members. Later on, i remember responses others during the nato parliamentary assembly. He replied very clearly that yes, this promise ends. I think we have to repeat this. They witnessed all those things. I hope that the developments of nato, because opendoor policy is still valid, it ended bywledge and acknowledged all of us. It is sometimes difficult to end tensions and a very difficult debate. We remain united. That is a contemporary message, i think, about nato. We want to stay like this and are,y, georgia and ukraine in my private opinion, which i am entitled to say now, are very important factors to keep this position of nato. Thank you. Thank you very much for your encouraging words. Im sorry, its important that personalities like yours express these opinions. It is most useful. Let me turn to our last but not ah. St, gaia guid deeply involved in the policymaking and agenda setting, so thanks for joining us. I wanted to, perhaps, poke your brain with a small question here. We have been hearing from all our speakers that look, ukraine and georgia, we are security providers as well, and nato and the alliance all benefit from our potential membership. My question to you is that itbership is not that easy, is not based on quantitative measurements. It is also a political decision. Perspective, do we deal with this need for political decisions . You, first of all, let me express our apologies for not today, deputy Prime Minister. She was really looking forward to this event, due to someon unforeseen situation, she had to be at a very important meeting. We are very sorry for this, but i am very grateful to all of the all members, and to center for organizing this event, and especially we are who provideexperts their opinion and recommendations, and very solid analysis of ukraine and georgias contribution to Atlantic Security and their role in you security architecture. It is very important for us, for the government, and i hope that the Reflection Group also will take into account their recommendations. Know that the Ukrainian Center met about recommendations of immunity. We are lucky to have such strong involvement of experts in this process. Yesterday, question we had a very good discussion, also organized by the center, and we talked about nato, enhanced opportunities, and how take advantage of this program. While our foreign partners say that we should talk not only availability, but also political ones. To make ukraine politically the same as the nato members. I think when we will have this common understanding, then underwent this important political reforms that ukraine achieved through the rule of law. Questione will be no at all of membership. Time, and now of task. Uld work on our home would like to make a few thets, if i may, about ukraine region from the government, about what is the atlanticre all in your security. Sure, of course. We are on the same page with region iss, so our byy close to those presented experts, but i would like to express these viewpoints. Participation in that reflection process is a good example of support, and it also shows that ukraine is important from development in the next 10 years. We should always keep this in mind. Ukraine is part of European Security, so it is logical that would take back in this process. Alliance for the their trust and confidence in us. Nato has a strong commitment to opendoor policy and. Sorry, can we take a short break, because i think the deputy Prime Minister will