Next, a look into the future of the Transatlantic Alliance and natos role in securing ukraine and georgia. I am pleased we have the pleasure to welcome our panelists and viewers on both sides of the atlantic. Good morning. Greetings from brussels. Ukraineect of today, and nato, is something i would say is part of the dna. We have been working for many years now on georgia related issues. Supports fund that vaccines by addressing [indiscernible] in the region. Want to thanklly the new Europe Center for all to support they provided contribute tonight. Today, we want to dig into the subject of ukraine and georgias relationship with nato, and especially how these countries fit [inaudible] reflects the process. This was announced by nato secretarygeneral jan native g to see her to see how nato can prepare and this process may lead to a new strategic concept, and this isnt a luxury. The current one dates back to 2007, if im not mistaken, so i would argue that there is a need to rethink nato strategy. The world nato operates in today has certainly changed in the last 10 years. I think, for instance, about the increased presence of china and the European Security landscape. I think about the continued assertiveness of russia and key regions for transAtlantic Security, but also new challenges. Hybrid warfare and cyber attacks. But the alliance needs to address these challenges. That also includes how nato engages with partners. Its crucial that countries like ukraine or georgia are included in this 2030 reflection process, because increasingly, natos adaptation is depending also on their relationship with partners. So, i think, in a nutshell, these are the issues that we want to discuss today. What to expect from the 2030 reflection process, why does this process matter, and whats the role of partners like ukraine or georgia . We are also privileged today because our experts on the panel will give us an exclusive preview of the reports that they wrote on this subject. So, let me actually introduce our panel of speakers today. First, the director of the New York Center in kyiv. Welcome to you. The cofounder of the Georgian Institute for strategic studies, and a member of the european parliament, but also actually a member of the group of experts, of the nato reflection process. Thank you very much for taking the time to be with us. We are also expecting olga to join us, the deputy Prime Minister for European Affairs for transatlantic integration of ukraine. [inaudible] and we will obviously include her in this conversation. Speakers, but then also go to you, the audience, for q a. We really want this to be an interactive debate, so feel free and which priorities do you see emerging . Good evening. Good evening from kiev. First of all, let me thank brussels for the Great Partnership in organizing this event. For your interest in this event. I think the discussion is also indeed proper, because as we just before we went, the nato Reflection Group members, the secretary general of stoltenberg in order to present their ideas and their contributions to make nato reflections process for 2040. [indiscernible] with regard to ukraine, we are pretty sure that in order to be envisioned, in order to be comprehensive, nato reflections process 2040 needs to take into account ukraine and georgia. This is why we stand, together with our georgian partners from the Georgian Institute, developed joint ukrainiangeorgian expert accommodations through the modest contribution to the reflection process. These accommodations will and we are happy we can discuss them today, as well. We believe that both ukraine and georgia can fully resolve [indiscernible] for the 2040 reflection process. Formin the previous [indiscernible] as far as i remember, the previous document made reference to cooperation with russian federation. So, i think that it is of fundamental importance that natos new strategic documents that reflect all materialitys as a new challenger to Atlantic Security. [indiscernible] and the changing dynamics. Lets not forget that when we are talking about ukraine and georgia, we are talking about countries who have a double meaning, or are playing double role. As partners, and as countries that are aspiring to become nato members. Let me elaborate on that a little bit. Firstly, what do ukraine and georgia proved to be one of the most reliable nato partners . What countries [indiscernible] Unity Partners . The gop program, the demonstration of the two countrys contributions to their operations and mission, as well ofa high level [indiscernible] and those Member States [indiscernible] both countries have proven they can be not only consumers, but also contributed to europes taking anecurity by effective part in the alliance contribution and operations. Ukraine, for example, is the only partner to correctly contributed to all natoled operations. Secondly, ukraine and georgia are two of the three countries that are currently not made no members. Membership in nato [indiscernible] in ukraine, its a conscious and responsible choice of our country, ukraine and georgia. For ukraine, integration in nato Foreign Policy and security priorities. We should support a level of and importantly, a level society. Result of russian aggression, by the way. I would like to underline here this is probably the first time in ukraines history that there was a change of president and government, and the Parliament Last year. The call of major integration last year has not been challenged for a while. When were talking about the nato membership, we are not suggesting something brandnew or extraordinary. As you know, ukraine and georgia will become nato members. The membership action plan [indiscernible] which we can see, ukraine and georgia as our next logical step in the european integration. This is mentioned as the next step for ukraine and georgia on their path to membership. As a result, we expect with the application of this policy, would not be selective. Georgia and ukraine actually should be a roadmap to the membership, and amongst other should be a roadmap to the membership, and amongst other things, i think its important to mention that this policy will encourage georgia and ukraine to improve their democratic practices and advance their agenda, because natos policy remains in up report and and drive up ukrainian and georgian policymakers. Actually, foreign iliticians [indiscernible] mean our countrys institutions, both locally and militarily. And not only in france and georgia, but also natos interest to support the interests of the countries. By doing so, nato will expand the community of likeminded, stable, and predictable democracy. So, i think its in natos interest, as well. Probablyindiscernible] properly recognize it as an important part to the security of the region. [indiscernible] our strategic location might put both ukraine and georgia at the center of any debates in the region. , you canpoint of view part with a joint assessment of participation with georgia and ukraine. [indiscernible] should pay special attention to [indiscernible] initiatedussia has because we should remember number onehe producer. Russian occupied territories to undermine international law. I think i will stop here. Its a convenient place to undermine international law, which involve smuggling, which involve [indiscernible] i think i will stop here and turn now more to our recommendations. Thank you very much. This was a very good kick off, i would say. I appreciate you going over ukraines role, not only as a consumer, but as a security provider. I think thats a pretty important point. Going back to the georgian point of view, im making a plea to better consider the role of Companies Like georgia and ukraine in the nato 2040 process. So, what would be your recommendation from a georgian perspective . Thank you very much. First of all, thanks a lot to the organizers and to our partners for producing this report. Its great, because i actually do see a huge value in hearing their voices because if you can look at how the realities on the ground, but also the dynamics are changing, i think that the value of the partners will be increasing in the years to come. Because the collective defense, as such, we are going to have to have a holistic view about the collective defense. The companies that have been in close cooperation and partnership nowadays and if seeing the natural resolution of this partnership for 30 years and have been reliable partners throughout this time, in a neighborhood which actually sees a sea of authoritarians, very much unpredictable environment has been stably democratic, i would say, maybe not consolidated, of course, but were still trying to keep ourselves on the track of being democratic. And that, i think, is extremely important. As mentioned, weve been contributing to international security. We are small. I mean georgia is small, ukraine is bigger than us. But we were trying to punch above our weight, because in spite of having these terrible problems of our own, i think that georgia and ukraine have made a very serious case about being the contributor, but also credible partners throughout this time. And i think i want to take a Bigger Picture view right now of why i think its a window of opportunity for both sides, for nato and for georgia and ukraine. The region has seen a very dramatic change of the dynamics in the recent weeks, i would say, for about a month and a half, and weve had a very different status quo right now. Many see this not only as a perception level right now, but also on a practical level, as a weakness of the west in the way, seeing it as pushed out or cut out of a region, which it actually, conditionally has been always present in. But nowadays, the status quo actually says something else, and considering that, and considering that georgia and ukraine remain to be profoundly prowestern for quite some time, i think that, for nato and for the ones coming up should think about whats going to be the value of these countries in different dimensions. And i will try to explain what are these dimensions. I will talk about the dimensions, the military ones, but also a valuebased dimension which i think is going to have to be something we have to be thinking about, which provided there is going to be a rethinking in washington, probably, after the new administration comes in. Some of the appointments that are going to be made already are pretty interesting in a way, because i think there is going to be a new thinking for the region, as well. With that in mind, i would like to make two cases now. This is also part of our report, but i think young democracies like georgia and ukraine definitely deserve to have a better understanding and to have better, i would say, traction, because they are the ones who have proven to continue the democratic trend in the region. Others are looking up at us. Let it be belarus, many of the people are thinking everything is deadlocked in our region, as well. But then there was a very Interesting Development in armenia. Everyone was thinking that that was not going to be happening, but its happening because they heed a successful of being present in the vicinity, in the region. There should be a clear political message. We do have a clear political message for quite some time, present in the vicinity, in the region. So, if you have young democracies like georgia or ukraine, and you give them a chance, an open door policy id like to agree that the selectivity of the opendoor policy definitely shouldnt be the case, because while were building this case, there is a very clear political message. We do have a clear political message for quite some time, but those messages should be sent out my more practical means. Frankly speaking, you know, no one in the region has a problem with the practical side of our cooperation with nato. Were enhanced opportunities partners. We have very good initiatives, and these will continue for quite some time. When it comes to political sides, were still understanding the depths that are behind. For nato, actually, as you rightly mentioned, it also gives relevance to nato, because nato has to find itself to be relevant. And i think that its much more than just military consideration, but it also gives them the power of the they can have. I think thats a very important element. When it comes to strategic considerations, both georgia and ukraine, making some things arent indispensable to natos eastern plan. I think theyre extremely important. Why . Because we are transit routes. We are infrastructure hubs, one way or another, and we have been trying to get away from the russian cloud to be independent and to have a free hand. Let it be the energy carriers, let it be all kinds of cargo, land, b maritime, or let it be air. I think that is extremely important. Because in the years to come, we will see that other players will be answering the region. Right now, it has been more cautious for some of them, but definitely china definitely china is having plans to get more fdr i. Theyre thinking about various projects. We can talk about that, as well. Theres going to be a turkey connection, which is a member of nato, but with increasingly independent policy. Thats a new factor, which i think that all of us have to be thinking about. Georgia is a partner and is an ally of turkey, and has been continuing for quite some time. And then, of course, we have russia. And russia always has socalled quotation marks, a special understanding of where they are and why they are in the region. Considering the inclusion of georgia and ukraine, and then a new wave of political extension will be extremely important. And of course, there is a greater value to nato, as well, because nato has space in the black sea. Everyone recognizes them, that that inhey recognize the summits. That the eastern flank needs to be reinforced. Everyone understands that. Excellent. Let me just ask you to round up here, because we want other speakers to intervene. Just two more minutes, one minute . 30 seconds. Ok, 30 seconds. Georgia and ukraine are indispensable when it comes to the plan southeast of the alliance. I think thats extremely important. And there are different ways, and i can talk later about initiatives, which can be coming up. Sorry for being late. Lets get back to some of your points. We want to an interactive debate, so lets have time for everyone to intervene. Debate, so lets have time for everyone to intervene. Thank you very much for joining us and you presented some of i would love to hear your insights there, but also perhaps let me give you this question, if i may. Almost 10 years ago, nato also had a group of experts which was then chaired by madeleine albright, and their job was to advise on nato 2020. I remember the big debate back then was whether nato should be an alliance that should be engaged globally or if it was only to focus on article five territory. Do you think the debate today is different . Because if nato is to strengthen its partnership, it needs to be outward looking. Im sorry, your question, this will be a very quick answer. The debate goes on, surely, but you an explanation. Yes, today we were able to finally submit the report to nato secretarygeneral. Unfortunately, for our todays meeting, we are still obliged to keep silent until obliged by nato Foreign Ministers to keep silence until their debate, which is to happen on december 1. And then our report is to become public. So, please maintain some patience. Yet i think that im so much intertwined in affairs of georgia and ukraine and particular links to both countries to nato, which might be interesting to all of you. I still remember my visit to ukraine. It was august of 2006. And standing together with thenforeign minister in front of a panel of journalists, we were debating ukraines eventual exception to International Organizations like eu, and there were some remarks about nato amongst journalists, as well. And i would say the spirit about nato was rather not ambivalent. It was rather negative. Everyone was afraid of speaking openly about nato, although i know that the will was already there at that time. Surely, last six years, and ukraine fighting for territorial integrity made a change within public perception. Also, engagement of ukraine in many in between, ukraine signed a Framework Agreement with e. U. , as well. In my previous capacity as chairwoman on security and defense, i met both ukraine and georgian soldiers in many nations all over the world. So truly, i can prove with my own eyes that both countries are really providers of security for all eu Member States and nato allies. That is true. That is true. So, both countries are extremely important. Same with georgia. I still remember talking to numerous representatives of nato allies who used to confirm that most predominantly georgian population is most prominently the most pronato in the world. Now, within nato, we tend to complain about public support, necessity to extend Public Diplomacy programs to ensure, to convince her convince our respective populations of the value and benefits and contributions of nato to world security. While in georgia, it is evident the major part of society thinks like this. Actually, it is now very positive in both countries. I still remember another event. Bucharest nato summit, i was, at that time, had of the late president s chancellor, and consultnt by him to with some allies. In particular, those who were reluctant about both countries [indiscernible] at that time. I participated in bucharest, of course, as well, so i remember debates and all engagements. Justlly, i have everything before my eyes, those chambers and those discussions at that time. Yes, it was a promise in bucharest, and i think it is still both countries will become nato members. Later on, i remember responses of others during the nato parliamentary assembly. I think it was one person that replied very clearly that yes, this promise ends. I think we have to repeat this. They witnessed all those things. I hope that the developments of nato, because opendoor policy is still valid, acknowledged by all of us, were able to, despite tensions, sometimes difficult to end tensions and a very difficult debate. We remain united. And thats a contemporary message, i think, about nato. We are allies. We want to stay like this. And surely, georgia and ukraine are, in my private opinion, which im entitled