Jason riley author columnist at the wall street journal and among your books, please stop helpings us, i want to begin where your book concludes you said the following quote to liberalism has succeeded tragically in convincing blacks to see themselves first and foremost as victims. Yes, i believe that is a big part ofev political strategy actually. And they have been added for some time. On fortunately theyve had a lot of success in taking blacks is primarily victims. They are defined by their victimization first and foremost. And then the followup is of course that we have a Government Program, or government solution to help you overcome your victimhood. So i think its a political strategy. Your bookl writes about a number of essays and books on Lyndon Johnson and the Great Society. Was it a failure or success . I think if you look at the actual track record of the programs, if you look at the goals that the objectives that were stated at the time, youd s,ve to say its largely a failure. That particularly regard to the people that were targeted. But they were targeted by these many programs i mean the black poor. There are lots has not significantly improved to the extent that we were told it would improve at the time. Another debate that i think we move beyond the separate but equal, and your book you talk about historical black colleges in the case of prejudice ronald mason. Who was he and why is he important to understand in terms of merge historically black College Jackson university forced out because of the concern he would that would have another institutions . I think the issue there was whats become of these institutions since the civil rights acts. Since weve seen a lot more integration in the country. And the problem of these institutions have are that because blacks did not have options that they didnt once have the first half of the 20th century, they are exercising those options and they are not attending as starkly lack college to the extent that they once did because they have more options nowadays. And so the schools are struggling with how to stay viable. Both economically and in terms of what they can contribute to higher education. And among some of the plans for the small colleges are perhaps merge, take advantage of scale. And this is resisted by some schools to remain and maintain their independence. And i understand that, but its often for nostalgic reasons rather than practical reasons. In so for someone who is pushing for this plan, as a way to save some of the schools they got a lot of pushback. So are the school still relevant . Or should they merge . I think if they are producing good results, yes they should stay in business. The problem is that a lot of them or not. There being kept afloatpr through primarily federal dollars that flow to them. And my. Is that if the school is failing, its failing its charges, then it should close. It doesnt matter if its an allblack school or traditional white school. If its not meeting its objective, it should close. Why think the value added in these schools has been of late in recent decades, is the stem fields where they do an excellent job of educating kids, and math and science and engineering and so forth, and you see a preponderance of blacks who go into those fields coming out of the school. So i think they still do some very, very vital purpose in higher education. But that is not to say that all of them are performing at that same level and should all be kept. This is a cover story of the Washington Post magic magazine with racism. One of the headlines of Gene Robinson saying americas longest war. Your reaction to that. T. Sm i think there is a tendency to view black history, at large to clean america. As a history of whites is number two blacks. There are various reasons why various groups want to keep that narrative alive. But in the end, i think black is about more than that. Yes, racism still exists. I dont know your reasonable person who would argue otherwise. Nor do i expect to see america vanquished of racism in w my lifetime. But i do think black history is more than that information the question, the more relevant question is what can be done in the face of whatever racism still exists. What was done in the past by blacks in the face of racism . And i think that is the relevant story to tell today. And that is the message to give to young people today. I my fear is that by perpetuating this notion that its all about victimization, but its all about racism, youre sending the wrong message to the next generation. Why try to school if the teachers are racist in the tester races and the police aree out to get your. The employers are racist. A menu syndicate out the door at that sort of message, i dont think youre helping that child. Have you felt the sting of racism . Zero c certainly. I experience racism ive been called names, i didnt fall down department stores, ive been pulled over by police for no reason i could understand. You right about that in detail in washington d. C. And what happened of a warrior . I was doing an internship back in the early 90s and washington d. C. I was interning at usa today and staying with a relative in the area. And i was on the sports desk. So we had to, we didnt leave work until the base ballgames on the west coast were over so is usually quite late. I was driving to and from my uncles house why was staying. On the essay today headquarters. And i had my car which had new york plates because i was from new york, although i was driving in d. C. , and is driving home one evening after work and is probably sometime after midnight and i hear the sirens blaring and the police pulled me over, order mail the car at gunpoint and push me to the ground. They step with the car and all the rest. Nd i fit the description of someone they were after with outofstate plates in my car model. What you thinking . I was terrified. I remember getting back into the car after i left because they seem to be god as quickly as they came after they realized i wasnt the right person, and just sitting in my car shaking. I remember i had a standard lie couldnt get it out of gear my handld was shaking so vigorously. It was terrifying. Store in washington d. C. Making headlines three black men 16 years old convicted of a murder they did not commit. They were just released from jail. What is that tell you about americas criminal Justice System . But its not perfect. When i think you will find you be hardpressed to find a black person of my age who hasnt experienced the things that ive experienced. I think the criminal Justice System is certainly an improvement today over what used to be, but my father grandfather experienced in country. But its still not perfect. But i would caution against btaking these examples and saying they are typical. Versus exceptions or operations. Or saying that the reason somebody blacks are involved with the criminal Justice System is because its a racist system. He se. I dont see a lot of evidence for that. When i often times we have discussions about the racial makeup of prisons and jails, but we dont talk about the racial makeup of people who perpetrate crimes in this country. And i dont think you could really have one discussion without the other. So as imperfect as a criminal Justice System is cute and has been and continues to be, i still think there are behavioral differences among groups that lead to some being overrepresented in that system and other being others represented. Will suckle thehe titles of three of your books. The first one please stop helping us, whats the message . Well thats look back at the Society Programs put under Lyndon Johnson and expanded under nixon. And others. And i wanted to say what is a track record . These were programs that were putxo in place to help the black poor in particular. Welfare programs, housing programs, expansions of minimal age laws and so forth. And i wanted to look back and say what has worked, what hasnt worked, and why . And s what is attempting to do with that book. Your second book false black power . Thats a book about, and i had a little bit about this and please stop helping us, but the false black powerbook is essentially about the track record of using political power to advance a group economically. That has been the strategy of the Civil Rights Movement of king. The issue there was if we can integrate political institutions, the economics everything also take care of ofitself. We just need to get our own c people inn place, and the Civil Rights Movement had quite a bit of success in doing that. If you look back by the early 1980s, you had major black cities in the u. S. Los angeles, youre philadelphia, washington d. C. s and so forth. La mayors. Lack in addition to that, you had black Police Chiefs and fire coming sugars and school superintendents, and so forth. But if you look at the trackan record of the poor in these black run cities, if you look at marion d. C. Washington d. C. In the 1980s in new jersey in the 1990 or coleman youngs untroit, in the 1970s, under these black regimes, you had the poor becoming even more impoverished on their watch. So i dont think the track record there is a very good one. Now that is not to say that black should disengage from the political process, because weve seen regression, black regression under white mayor spirit and white congressman a white Police Chiefs and so forth. It isnt to say that this connection we were told was essential between black political power and black economic progress simply is not proven to be as strong as some people hoped it would be. So generally speaking have these Government Programs helped or hurt africanamericans . I think by and large they have hurt. They have hurt in a way, the way explain it is that they are, what the underprivileged in need of any race or ethnicity as a sort of selfdevelopment that has to occur. Its not something that lends itself to essentially political solutions. These are cultural changes that need to take place. Economists refer to as Human Capital. Certain attitudes and behaviors and habits that need to develop in a group in order to rise and in america weve seen that happen to other groups. And toe in the extent that a Government Program interferes with that necessary selfdevelopment, i think its doing more harm than good. And what a lot of great Society Programs did was to interfere with that selfdevelopment. Persons or groups that work ethic is not going to improve if they think the government is going to take care of r them. We cant replace a father in the home with the government check. And if you have a system in place that says to a woman if you have an additional child will send you more money, if we see the father of that child is run your house were gonna stop sending you that money. You can imagine the sort of perverse incentive where there were put in place under centers like that. But thats we saw going on. Think we corrected some of this with the bill clintons reforms in the 1990s. But not entirely. I think there is still a legacy effect. We are in new york, our guest is jason riley in addition to his books he is a regular contributor, scallop available at wsj. Com in the wall street journal and we take phone calls feel even eastern or central time zones be sure to follow us booktv on twitter, you can also sent as a text message that 202,748,003 and jason riley let them in the case for open borders. That was a book written in the mid to lates and it was about immigration. I was working at the wall street journal at the time, and the person that had been covering immigration for the paper got a new position and imked me if i wanted to take over the beat. That sort of how it fell into my lap. I didnt have a real dog in the fight of the sense im not an immigrant, im not the child of an immigrant selfworth, but i did enjoy studying history. An immigrant history is fascinating. If only because some of the arguments he realized that she write about it are so old and a been around for so long, so that first book really came out of my writing editorials for the newspaper. And its t sort of expand on a lot of the arguments of the walls of the article on immigration over the decades. The very proto immigration editorial page. Which sometimes upsets conservatives in particular, but its interesting what happened with that debate. Because the sort of immigration view on the right and the trump era is very, very different from what it used to be. You always had a sort of isolationist protectionist strain on the right going back to Pat Buchanans view in the 1990s, but that was never the dominant view of the right. Reagan was extremely pro immigrant, and put in place amnesty. George w. Bush and his father were both very pro immigrants, and even the republican nominees that lost like the mccain or romney were still far more pro immigrant that you had an donald trump. So this is sort of a new development on the rights although theres always been this faction, this more anti immigrant nato faction december been the dominant one. Source sort of a new era here. Are the rules any different for an immigrant versus refugee . Oh yes. They are two different groups and traditionally have been taught and have been considered to differ groups. These days theres a little different. The people decided this would generally tell youho that someone who is forced out of their country, who would rather be back home, and is coming to the u. S. Is going to behave very differently from someone who willingly leaves their country to start a new life in a new place. And so, what i am writing about a netbook or primary economic immigrants. The case that i make is that we would do better to put in place guestworker programs or other types of programs that allow the laws of supply and demand to determine the level of immigration. Right now its been made by politicians and public policymakers who are trying to think real hard about the u. S. Needs for the economy. Well take a little bit from here will tickle but from there, will fill that demand will do this demand, but that just does not work. Its soviet styled Central Planning that is left us with document fraud, 12 million plus Illegal Immigrants in the country, hundreds of dead bodies in the arizona desert, i think we would do better to put in place Market Mechanisms that would allow us to regulate the flow. In the current book they are working on is what . Im currently working on intellectual biology whoseon base of the hoover institution. At someone who have known a little bit over the years whose books and writings had a huge impact on me when i discovered them in college. Its a project im really looking forward to. How would you define your ideology . Can he put it in a box or is it more disparate than that . I guess id find myself as a freemarket individual. A freemarket conservative who someone is believes in Smaller Government is the way to go. And someone who believes in individual freedom. From please stop helping issue also wrote the following. The Civil Rights Movement has become an industry by whom by the way . Its become an industry for everyone from individuals like your al sharptons or Jesse Jacksons, to entire organizations like the naacp. Iso think that theyve effectively monetized black victimization. And different groups have done it for Different Reasons. I think if you are a Civil Rights Organization like the naacp, it is not in your interest to acknowledge things have improved for black people. And thats what you are trying to do, the civilized battles have been fought and won. And you are trying to stay relevant. If you have an organization like lack lives matter, you want to raise money so you are going to play up certain aspects of whats going on out there on the racial front. Whether or not they are actually relevant. You are going to play that up because its in your interest to do so. We were talking earlier about the victimization narrative and not something that democrats and black democrats in particular used to get reelected. Sososo different groups have different incentives here. But it has very much become an industry. You saidbu its an industry that has no interest in assessments of black methodology. Again that doesnt serve their purpose. They want to stay relevant, or they want to raise money, or they want to get reelected. So theyre going to keep race and racial victimization front and center and the national debates. Oi whether or not its relevant. Or do you do most of your thinking and writing . At home, have a home office and thats what i do mostly. And javid self disciplined to do that . Discipline enough article getting used to. I commuted into an office for more than two decades at the wall street journal. So it took a little adjustment, but i find it more productive now to just simply be able to get started right away. Are guesses jason riley with your book indepth. Lemay first asking about your father. Youre right about him in your book your parents separated when you were young, but your father was silver much in your life as a child. Yes he was, and i think it made a big difference. He was an excellent role model, not only my father, i grew up in my mother was very religious, and we attended church two or three times a week. In the congregation was full of black men who took care of their families, and dress a certain way, spoke a certain way, behaved a certain way, so i was very fortunate i grew up around a lot of very solid male role models. And i think it made a big difference. And imo think today, part of the problems that many blacks, particularly the young blacks isks they dont have that stability. They dont have role models in the community orr even in the home given the high illegitimacy rate, the high rate of single parenting and poor black communities, its a problem. Born and raised in buffalo . Yes born and raised in buffalo. Joining us from yonkers new york, welcome to book tv fill. Hello. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. The question i want to ask is are republicans, especially black republicans, why dont they educate their own. The blacks have it in history is pars political. They only have, they just und