Book educated. I have to tell you this was one of the most extraordinary memoirs i have ever read so i am honored to be here with you today. Really i was blown away. And then even made the experience so much more profoun profound. I just want to dive it and ask you to read from a section. To make turning to the house on the hillside i saw movement of a different kind tall shadows, my brothers are awake imagine my mother hovering in my father hunched by the back door and putting his hands into welding gloves. And then the school bus went past without stopping. I am seven but this makes my family different. We dont go to school the government cant force us because it doesnt know about us. All seven of us have no medical records because we were born at home, we have number certificate and no School Record we never set foot in a classroom. And i am nine im issued a delayed certificate of birth but at this moment i do not exist. Of course i did. Going to preparing for the days of abomination and the moon by summers bottling peaches and winter rotating supplies. The world had ended we would gone on go on an affected. Host i want to start in idaho where this takes place so take me through a day in the life what it was like as a ten yearold version of yourself. We had a farm which belonged to my grandfather it was beautiful with wheat fields on the mountain it was not big but beautifully made and came out of the earth and formed into aspire i was always told the beautiful story about the mountains a womans body would appear on the mound face my dad had a story that they were look for her coming that spring had ended and winter is over. So in a junkyard with a crumpled up cars in my childhood i think it took me a long time to realize that it was not completely normal it seemed completely normal now i can see there are elements that were unusual. My dad lobbied against doctors or hospitals or Public Education so that meant i was never allowed to go to school or see a doctor or number certificate until i was nine. Host you have this idyllic existence free environment that seems like a magical place and you have talked about this but there is very much two sides to your childhood experience. Absolutely the mountain was beautiful my mother was an herbalist so spending on these hours gathering rose hip but it also had another side the junkyard but we also got hurt quite a bit there was a lot of injuries that one time my brother was covered in burns and does made the decision to treat at home because my dad didnt believe in doctors or hospitals so even the herbalism my mom was talented could be scary with a real injury with no morphine. Host talk about your fathers philosophy i do see is more than your father than your mother but it seems like it came mostly from your father. I think so its complicated. Sometimes i think it was a spiritual doctrine and others he had a theory the government, Public Education was infiltrated by some kind of ill meaning organization whether illuminati or the new world order so he believes they were trying to do us harm. It was his conviction. He believed it. Host can you pinpoint what was he afraid of really . What was the fear based . It depends which institution. I think he was concern the medical establishment was not actually doing good a lot of the things that people take like drugs or pharmaceuticals would damage your body and also spiritually and you should use natural hurling and herbs so Public Education he was worried it was brainwash leading us away from god so it would depend its a he is a complicated person. Brainwashing seems to be a big part of what hes talking about with the fear of you being brainwashed from the illuminati but part of that is the fear of someone coming in to change the path that he set for your children for you children. He had very specific ideas he was worried we might go to a doctor or compromise our health or spirituality. In his mind the path was narrow you had to do these exact things to be in Good Standing with god to be a good person i think that was a fear to be sucked into the idea not to be worldly a lot of people have that idea think it is a strong idea and a lot of religions. You were more men but this is not a mormon perspective have a at all. Almost all mormons support education they send their kids to school or they homeschool or believe in doctors it is not representative. You wanted to make that point. I did. The political environment is so polarized people will latch on to whatever they can and my dad had some irregular ideas and im not a medical professional but i felt maybe he had a mental irregularity. In my mind the religious extremism i would say whatever was happening in his mind i dont think it was the other way around if all religious people are like this are we need other people men to make them into a caricature. Host this is a foreign land to me in many ways. So what is interesting to me with Popular Culture so there is an example the first memory thats not a memory from the ruby ridge massacre so talk about that role with the belief beliefs. So they have these ideas about the government at the time of the ruby ridge incident in the way that we lived to be a lot of that isolated. So then there was. Where it happen to anyone it wasnt completely irrational thing to take. But i was outside when that happened so we went into this. We were canning a lot and we got bags to run and hide in the mountains he would have them. Had a journal entry a few years later i had the bag and documented the contents. A heater for the emergency foo food, water purifiers, mosquito nets, all the things you need them to live on the mountain. I dont know how long it lasted for my dad but in my mind as a very frightening thing that made me feel the government could come at any moment and never told us the end of the story. The ruby ridge family lived in idaho and the way that it began i believe it had to do with the conflict over a rifle and the weaver had sold he missed a court date and then the fbi and federal marshals did surveillance and somehow there was a conflict a dog was shot then an agent was shot and it got out of hand very quickly and ended up being we and the weaver was shot of visiting the body and agent surrounded the cabin that the wife was shot will nursing the baby. Killed by his neighbor. That was horrendous that is the version i was told. And then having dreams. And then in my mind in this way. So i was at university and then with public outcry. And every major newspaper. And then as a child that was a story the government would come for us. I thought something only we knew about it. Then i realized it was a terrible thing that happened but thats how democracy works it was not kept a secret are covered up. It was very much public. So part of the fear of a five yearold that is terrifying. But the idea you are not alone and that knowledge. And how those institutions responded to say holy evil. And that the abuse of a power. That could be the congressional report. It is a very different idea the government that people find out with checks and balances i didnt just learn about ruby ridge but how the constitution works. And the role of the free press and that changes the way it felt quite a bit. I love to think of that and to talk about the education that you learned with your family and is not traditional education but tell me the values of what you learned as a child that most people have . My older brothers were younger think my mother did a decent job homeschooling. By the time i came along she was a midwife and kids there wasnt a lot of homeschooling going on. Nothing like a lecture. So i was limited in formal education. But the parents in the way that they raise us with the philosophy and that you can teach yourself anything and that its principle i agree with. And has become something passive and the individual component not just socially but it is propaganda and people need to be actively engaged to design their own curriculum. I hate the word disempower but that people take to heart that to learn something you have to have a degree in the institutional phase to teach it to you. I was not raised to think that. Deciding i wanted to go to college it felt like something i could do not because they had formal education but if i have to do algebra i will buy a book and learn that. I barely got in but i kept going with that. I arrived at university very underprepared people thought i was being anti somatic that i was denying the holocaust i just never have heard that before. But they had something people feeling ownership of what they learned and then to make money but everyone should have that opportunity. And then it needs to be more active. Obviously in a literal sense but the act of creating a book is not easy. I didnt know how to write a narrative ive never been a bird before. Once i got to school ten years later stepping into the classroom for the first time at 17 and then i got my a phd in a you had to write prose which is different in that i sat down one of the things that made the biggest difference is that really great writers come on and read stories of other great writers and explain how they work that is an amazing curriculum but it worked for me so i could pursue that and didnt have to spend time because everybody is different it will always be better. Were any books in particular . I found short stories i read a lot and then a ton of short stories. There are so many great writers those that speak to you and those amazing writers i enjoy reading and then some riders thats the beauty of having control over how you learn. What rereading then . I read a lot of religious books. And a lot of 19th century speeches so that was a language. And then you wrote in this archaic style i wrote in a very focused style that a lot of my professors were very bewildered why i like the 19th century. [laughter] it took a while. Isnt it amazing the writing voice is so much different than the talking voice because you dont speak in that way im assuming is that the part . I think a lot of people do where they feel selfconsciousness and then we become more formal i noticed this and a lot of writing not just my own people use words like establishment and words you would never use based on a more intellectual but. How long does it take you to get that exercise quick. I wrote the first draft in about one year and the first four minutes of meeting was terrible. Are you being hard on yourself . Know it was really bad. [laughter] im lucky because i didnt think of myself as a writer i was literally trying to learn to write to write this one bucket was terrible. I said i know it is. Tell me how to make it better so i have no personal feelings there is no reason i should know how to do this ive never written a word before so i will try to learn. But you journaled so talk about those journals. Of a couple of journal entries when i was eight and then i was very faithful with those two or three stacks. What do they look like . But for you. I journal as well but to me i dont think i understand something until i write it down. Why are we doing that . There was a bed of lonelines loneliness. I didnt have a lot of friends that i had no friends. There is another family in town occasionally i would see one other girl but all kids in our town i never went to their houses. I was pretty isolated. I had my siblings but i wanted friends i wanted to tell someone my stuff and im sure there was a processing element to it i dont know why that. I imagine youre grateful for them now. So going back to your childhood something i did not recognize in my own like physical pain and then to skin my knee and hurt myself you are in a junkyard there is a part where you have an accident. Can you talk about that quick. My dad for whatever reason didnt have the bone in his head to tell him this is dangerous and do not do this. Even after someone was hurt he did not always understand and then thought everything that happens that we could be protected so we would build thes big buildings. And to care about the safety, we did. Just not knowing how dangerous that was. And then at 14 and then the idea then to use the forklift with the extendable it had to be taken over and dumped into the trailer. So i picked it up and said they had it be he wanted someone to go to the big ben and the trailer but he thought it would be faster if i rode up in it and said i will hold it level with the trailer you can call out and then shimmy over to the cab then you are out of the way of the falling metal and everything is great. I was terrified but not in the habit of disobeying my dad. He picked it up and as he was turning to rotate bit of scrap came loose with a jagged edge and pierced through my leg like a jagged knife and i could not move. He had that been level was waiting for me to crawl out i was trying to shout i couldnt move but it was allowed Diesel Engine and he couldnt hear me so then he starts to raise it up and i know he will dump this been and its gonna be like going through a meat grinder with 2000 pounds of falling scrap metal luckily it came out of my leg i can throw myself over the side i hit the side of the trailer i was injured but i was okay. I remember at the time i first experienced anger that he led it happened and then i felt ashamed because it seemed like a simple thing and i didnt know why i couldnt do it but i was missing in that moment i knew my dad would never hurt me on purpose i didnt have the information there might be something going on in his head value my safety but not be able to keep me safe that there could be an explanation it could be my fault he would never hurt me but somehow i had gotten hurt so it so easy to internalize it but i had to be much older to look back on that event and not feel ashamed and then there is a. I was really angry at my father how could you be that kind of father . And now i have the pieces and can put that together to say he would never want me to get hurt but however for whatever reason he was not able to understand the risk of the way he was doing things. I was blown away by the fact you are not angry. But this is pretty major and you seem not to hold any anger. I think its important and the mechanism of the brain to go is back to people or situations that harm us but if it takes over too much of your life it can be consuming. Spoiler alert that circumstance when it is hard so long time after that happened i was full of rage. Every beautiful memory of my childhood turn to rot and i was a person who had no beautiful memories with the life of rage. And i just think we need anger to get you out of situations but then once youre out and safe not sure you do and im not sure if you can get rid of it just live a better life without it i still had my family in my life i would needed every day but i dont so its important for me to reclaim the beautiful part of my childhood that yes that was frightening but it was fun and yes my father let the things happen to me that you never would have wanted that to happen. It is a delicate balance because i would never want to say i will only focus on the good and dismiss the bad because you let yourself or someone else get hurt but i dont want to skip over the bad so i aspire to this idea of mental integrity that nobody can take from me the good or the bad i just want to live in my own head and i dont want to be consumed with anger but i also dont want to expose myself to risk. That sounds dreamily evolved our un therapy . I think i had to come to that i mail. I have done a little bit of therapy. It is helpful because it never feels like that but if you set aside the time to think about how you feel and if you want to feel that way i have spent a lot of time thinking how angry i feel and i dont want to feel that way but i also dont want to go back. Where is this book catharsis. It ended up being cathartic i didnt think it would be. But it was i think because i thought it would be hard to write about to be traumatic but it wasnt a few before i started writing i processed the things like the danger of the scrapyard when i had it reconciled yet where the beautiful things the way the mountain looks the way my mom would look canning peaches the good things about my older brother. Those are the things i loved about my childhood the most and what i had lost. That was the hard thing knowing what they would have again the hardest thing to write about and will never really be able to reclaim that. Is there part that was really hard to write that surprised you . There were some moments of my dad that were hard a moment my brother saved my life. We are breaking horses and a horse went to zurich he wears on a hearse that never had a writer my horse went in my foot was caught in the saddle the hillside with the ravine and hills and a matter of time before i fell off and was dragged somehow my brother on this completely unbroken horse minutes to catch mind and this is the brother who was violent and controlling and at other times twist my wrist behind my back and called me a horror but he had a wonderful side for me he is kind and could be wonderful and i still think that but i want to dismiss the fact that he could be even violent. I want to talk about sean. So thats what i reconciled the most. At some part had to put down the book its hard to read even psychologically as well. But that seek a lot on the psychological torture still getting people fixate on the physical i tried not to because it wasnt the important part i have this idea that a matter what kind of abuse it is if you abuse someone you have to invade their reality to distort that and say its not that bad but the other thing convince them that they even did it but why it is pretty easy because people tend to internalize that guilt but my brother was pretty good he couldnt convince me that something had happened and just convince me to have a completely different interpretation. One example about this young man home named charlie i think my brother felt the need to demonstrate control over this person so he grabbed me by my hair and hauled me down the hallway dish of my head in the toilet. When it was over he told me it was a game and the next time we are having fun tell him if i was having in pain. I took that perspective on board so much so i tried to convince charlie. He knew what he had seen but he also knew that reality had no bearing on me. He could see how much under my brothers power i was. But then another incident a couple months later going to university realized gave me the ability to form my own opinions and then it happened again my brother attacked me in a parking lot when it was over he said im really sorry we were just having a good time i would never hurt you. So speak up if youre in pain. After he left i was writing in my journal and said i didnt know what version to believe. I was terrified and in pain and in that moment i would have torn him apart. I didnt say mine is right and he was wrong but i knew i didnt experience it as a game so i think it was the first time that my brother attempted to dominate for the first time and on your own for the first time that you never step foot into the classroom before. Talk about those early days. How did you act . I definitely acted i never spent any time with Public School kids. So for me even though they were very observant the women word occasionally wear a tank top ar