Churchill as we were warming up. On the editorial director. Collaboration between new america and Arizona State university. We look at the applications of the impact of technology on society. Im also professor at the Contact School of journalism. Its really an honor and pleasure to have have you with us today eric. The splendid in the bio rate of father of churchill family and defiance during the blitz. As all of you probably know. And eric is also author of the books. Erik larson is the author of the splendid and the vile. And also the author of other books. I have read most of the rocks. Im not read your first book. I was intrigued looking at your biography. You run a book called the naked consumer about how companies spite on individual consumers produce actually a very touchy subject. So maybe ill have a come back and talk about that one. I also love your website. It is erik larson. Com. You have an alternative book as well. So welcome. Thank you for being with us. On it we should just get right to it. Because of this conversation today, i feel like i should ask the question venture is on everyones mind that is how did Winston Churchill celebrate Cinco De Mayo of mac im getting. Erik systems me. Host youre right. We did not discuss that. And all seriousness. We are having this on zoom. Ron lockdown. Quarantine or house arrest. To turn. I just want to read a paragraph in your book churchills notion of what constitutes an office was extensive. Often generals and ministers and Staff Members inviting themselves of meeting him while he was in the bathtub. If one of Favorite Places to work. He also liked working in bed pretty he spent hours are going for reports rated the type of. Always present was a fox. Other officials were requiring his attention. Replenished daily by his private secretary. Clearly Winston Churchill was a buddy who had mastered the art of working from home. [laughter]. Were all struggling to do that these days. They may not be the case that these conversations about your book usually start with a really gregarious about whether you think churchill had some information about working from home. Erik i would be in the bathtub if i wasnt interviewing with you right now. And Winston Churchill had no sense of when. And he would be completely naked doing it. He definitely can work from home. He would work in bed. He had his typist, his personal secretary nearby at all times. And taking notes. It would more than likely have a cigar and more than likely would have a tumbler full of water and whiskey. But nonetheless whiskey and water. Host its interesting that you talk about, that we tend to think about this epic relationship friendship, partnership, alliance or whatever we want to call it. Between fdr and churchill. The medications going back and forth between washington and london it was interesting reading a book about how the early conversations in dc when churchill first ventures into the office is about the drinking and sort of his putting him over the top of his personality i guess people were wondering, is a somebody we can take seriously. Erik people have have noted about churchill but, it is a mistake to ever thank that he was a drunk or alcoholic. He certainly was not. In fact is very close private secretary, wrote later on and he had never seen churchill drunk or even in any way limited by alcohol. And churchill himself said this taken a lot more than a whole that alcohol is taken out of me. This, he felt. One thing that certainly resonates today, churchill, and a lot of time that they had home checkers every weekend. Between two country homes. He would have been very likely quite at home with this whole situation. Host i did not know this, was struck by an checker was donated by somebody by camp david or something. More than traditional country home i suppose. Erik well before the war, i believe he donated it in 1914. So call me on that one but the idea being that the checker is to be used. It was a place where he could go and just enjoy the countryside another faculties restore. Churchill took that very differently. He descended to make it is country command post in every week and he had just in booze and fund fun. Host i was intrigued. I had read a lot about this first year of churchills being in office and that moment of the finest hour in the blitz and so forth. And recently are ready, about churchill, i feel like a lot of us even if were not specialists, we have been inundated with books about this great historical character. Im going to skip this book had not been written by you. A feeling you would have a new angle, new insight. Some new framing. Wasnt daunting at all. You write about churchill because there is only mix about Abraham Lincoln or what wasnt the drew you to it. Erik let me, is not actually churchill and jimmy to do this book. Churchill kind of became the main character in the light in this process. But i had decided for a variety of complicated reasons that will be very interesting to look into the people actually got through the day during the blitz. During that german era including a portion that we knew of sos. They do it. We had moved from seattle, my wife and i did. Then i kind of had this epiphany about what 911 had been like for new yorkers business. And perhaps watch it in real time. The world looked different. Not just in the sense of the sites but the violation having your home city attack. If this what made me start thinking about writing about how did they get to the blitz. How do people get through it. We write about the typical way they got through it. Then i thought why not the quintessential churchill and his family and his advisors, see exactly how to get through the day. Take a close look at the daytoday experience. Thats what really helped me get through it. Then i realized how much material had been good stuff, about churchill. Theres so much brilliant writing. I had to make a strategic decision on how i was going to research the idea of reading everything that had ever been written about churchill, which itself wouldve been a lot to ask. I realized it would take me a decade. And even then, by the time i got to the fifth year, i wouldnt be done. Because a more books would have come out about churchill. Try to make a strategic decision that i was going to simply what is much as i could get a sense of churchill during that time. And then i got into the archives. I felt most involved with the original materials and so forth. Thats how i parted down pretty otherwise it wouldve been overwhelmed. Every single book for the last four and a half years, i was thinking what am i doing. Host was very interesting to see how did feel a portrait, we were often seen churchill and the historical moment for the eyes of his personal secretary or his daughter or other advisors it sometimes are not quite, not necessarily see things through their respective as much. You mentioned tensions on writing. I never had realized just how prolific, the history that he wrote after the war. But throughout his life, illinois get himself out of the financial hole on his own writing. And so prolific prayed and commanded a lot of money is journalistic writings earlier. Erik is often is writing the got him out of the financial hole. Whats so remarkable as he was extremely well read. Extremely talented writer. And also quick. All of this one into that machine that churchills rain and all really helped him in his process to help lead the nation through this crisis that german air can read. Host s interesting that you said you gravitated toward this moment to think about what it would be like to be in 911, and then 57 nights of the president s and so forth. In the new book comes out in early 2020 and of course, clear now the entire world is fighting off this global pandemic. Its a challenge sources cited is quite different for more on the we see people reaching for the analogies. The analogy that is unquestionable is the need for leadership, to mobilize society meet the crisis at hand. And it requires extraordinary efforts and sacrifices. So i want to ask you about that. And whether there is a secret sauce of the leadership before before we get to that. Any sentencing, maintenance, 1940, amazing day in history, is 80 years from this coming sunday. I was also thinking about that to sentencing in describing that Winston Churchill was facing. Erik started in 1940. The dengue became prime minster. He wanted this most of all. He became Prime Minister. Something about rebellion in the house of commons. In consensus was the Prime Minister was not up to the challenge of dealing with hitler in germany. That was a day that hitler became a hot one they were at the low countries. In the situation, the mainstay of his life, also the darkest days in history of the world. Churchill felt this simply, added spice to the challenge. He was in charge of this great empire at such a dire time. He becomes Prime Minister writing and this is sort of the crucial moment also about the people he appointed in particular. The main characters in the this book, to simply the secondary posture. He was confronting, ex potential threats on the presumption that at the time was that once the consolidated with france, and the British Forces expelled about the chaos and so forth, it seemed quite certain Going Forward that the entire strategic picture would change. Prior to the france going, this would the planes would not have fighter xx course, would not have the endurance to fight all of the way through. And suddenly france, there were german airbases on the coast of the english channel. They were only minutes away from inland. And something that they had never even speculated on. So assuming you had that threat. They were very real, and hitler in germany was going to invade. In a cross channel attack pretty most people at that time thought it was absurd but if germany, and channel but was going to be an invasion. So if you can imagine, taking control of britain, at this time not only has hitler been in various countries and into europe and crushing them, and now suddenly is facing what could be a threat in terms of an invasion across the challenge. What a prospect for any normal person but not for jewish churchill. He took us on with the gusto clicking through. Host we were listening to snippets of the speech. We have all been exposed to it. And theres even a hollywood rendition. Obviously he had a gift, of language. When you think of the recipe for leadership, i think theres a tendency to focus on the ability to communicate and inspire through leveraging, maybe should not be underestimated read wasnt mostly that he was a great communicator. How much of the ratio o elements. Erik resolve are all familiar with the great lines. Thats not really the strong benefits of his speeches in fact at the time, that particular line do not necessarily have the same residence and is now for all of us. Basically, it was just a speech. But the thing that made churchill i think, in particular an excellent communicating, lunges news and information but also communicating also a sense of reason for courage is health instructive it was. This was a great storyteller. And in those opening moments, he would tell it as a story. This was what was happening and how it was unfolding. It was a thrilling story if you think about it. He would give his audience a situation, not happy talk, just to really down to earth sometimes to sobering into detailed. He scared the heck out of them. But then he would follow with comments about why people should be optimistic. Like how this problem with the bloods, and the dunker, would be for a potential, help this can be resolved. Positive for optimism. Not happy talk. And then he would come with this force at the end, metaphorically, they would have part of this. And were going to take whats going on god dammit. And were going to do this. Were going to be hitler. Going to be temp. But theres another element to churchills element. He being this great leader of history. He had this ability to put people, to place people into the granite ethic of grace history to make them feel that they were part of this great story as he would put it. And he made them feel part of it. He had a real understanding of the powers of his symbolic acts. Something as simple as refusing to call hitler by his name. He was in a man. That weekend fan. If you think about it, that is very powerful. If you dont identify or demonize your enemy, it makes them seem more like this presence. Often the distance. In the he would visit bombed out areas and showing himself there. Surveying events and talking to people expressing emotion. He was not afraid at all about showing emotion in public. But showing the result. He was there and he was engaging in a courageous act. He was showing defiance. Physics sort of contemporary example. I had to laugh when we saw mike pence at the mall clinic without a mask. Everyone else was wearing a mask. In the think of the optics of that. Possibly of killing to that. Churchill would be wearing it and charging around and say this is what we do. The power that symbolic act. If you engage with those acts, like you dont wear a mask, you should be wearing that mask. That undercuts your credibility as a leader. So we had the chief sense of the power what that meant. He certainly seemed to be fierce. I would argue that. Churchill was more than likely to go up and bring people with him. That is a kind of leader he was. Host ive actually been to the bunker, now is a nice museum in london. That was there for him. And of course to read about him spending time there in the rooftop. Erik one of the things that fascinates me. Host a lot of talk a little bit about, we have some real time information on how people responded to his speeches and so forth through this project and Mass Observation. Read britains war a book about the home front in describing this Mass Observation. Sociological project. Can you describe thats a little bit. In the equivalent of that today, would be maybe social media or Google Search it. Talk to us about that. Erik Mass Observation is a social Science Organization founded before the work. To create, they social psychology of ourselves. The idea being to recruit hundreds of people to just write about daily life in britain. The continuum things. They worked to kind of sharpen their skills and describe things on the rental place. In fact its kind of that kind of daily personal detail of whats going into these diaries. And there were giving their direst to look at the Mass Observation for analysis. And then that continue to keep a diary. What a tremendous resource. When my favorite diaries, was a young woman lydia who is, a clerk for Scotland Yard shes dating older men. Shes in a love affair with an older man. In her diary shows metaphorically with the broader culture, and brenton was experiencing and how they evolved. In 1940, she is terrified. Like everyone else in london. This is a shocking thing. And up until then, they were not going to be attacked for whatever reason and she is terrified. Over time, she becomes less terrified. There is a bop that landed outside her house. When the germans attacked night, they would drop one and they would set things on fire so it would search is a beacon for them to follow. They would fly at night. So if you didnt have moonlight you had have these fires. Someone landed outside of her house and she put out this bomb. She snuffing out and she was so proud of herself in simulated that suddenly she was no longer afraid. She had stood up to this awful thing from germany. She had the courage to do this. And meanwhile, her lover became more and more fearful. In my favorite moment of the story is as high facebook passestime passes,the here to b. In her lover says get down get down. And she says, i am not. Host that is great. In future tense, we are, usually focused on our relationship to technology. And the relationship between technology and society. Part of the reason i wanted to have a conversation with you other than the fact that i wanted or i am history buff and a fan of your books. There is sort of a future tense connection here. One of the other things that i was really struck by in reading your book however familiar, i may or may not have been with churchill is that you really portray him as a pattern of ukulele technologist but certainly like a tech enthusiast. The character of the professor in the book is an interesting one his role as part of churchills circle, if you just talk a little bit about that relationship. And the relationship with the radar or whatever it is that we are familiar with. Technology was a huge part of what turned the tide. And particularly the english contributions. When we think of churchill, we have this image of him from the distant path. And even people in his day, he was not necessarily Technology Savvy was on the first thing that comes to mind but in your book there was a kind of an interesting thing. Erik first of all, he loved the idea of secret weapons. There was potential for technology in terms of what country in support. This is part of his leadership, and his special sauce if you will. He appointed advisors that he knew would give him the strength to work. He didnt want people to suck up to him. To say oh yes oh yes pretty youre doing exactly the right thing. Frederick lindemann was one of the most thoroughly disliked men in the government. In the british government. And except from churchill. Because frederick, he shortly after churchill became into the government, he appointed him to be his personal scientific advisory. Very smart and savvy move. He gave churchill and insight. What things were happening. Within the defense establishment. But also, he gave frederick lindemann, of time to investigate anything he wanted to predict any issue. This was very powerful because it assured the churchill was going to get a straight story. Not something was fabricated or massage. Because frederick had this ability to look into anybodys affairs and bring back a report to churchill. In some cases even on his own memoranda churchill to sign. And its proved to be a very valuable thing. For example, it turned out that the british, to know how many planes, or aircraft, that germany had. It was important to know. But also they didnt know how many aircraft the raf has. That was another issue. That comes up in the song as well. They were in such a conundrum, the churchill said he would have to actually hire a criminal court judge to review the evidence on both sides. In t