Guest thanguest co. Thank y. Its great to be here. Host its incredibly important so i must ask the basic question which is the question you attempt to answer the first section of the book what is surveillance, what is your definition of a guest lets backup a little bit and gave a tiny bit of context. It is long understood and history of capitalism part of the way capitalism evolves is by taking things that are outside of the marketplace and outside a Market Dynamic and bringing them into the market so they can be a. Its about the basic mechanisms of industrial capitalism. It was claimed for the marketplace. It became the hallmark and in a similar way to. Lets fast forward a century surveillance capitalism was invented and the inside was we can take Human Experience specifically private Human Experience. We are coming into this space of the private experience uninvited and we are doing but typically in ways that are secret and designed to evade your awareness of. We are registering your experience in a variety of ways and then we are translating that into behavioral data that can be fed into the production process which these days we would call Machine Intelligence. What they will do now and later. Those are sold into these kind of markets that trade exclusively in behavioral futures because of the kind of derivatives. Host one thing that struck me as a beginner industrial to the society those predictions are not just those that are persuasive suggestions. Guest you have asked such an interesting question. This goes to the heart of the book because the mechanism and internal logic of surveillance capitalism in the end of this moves beyond economics and beyond the commercial business side of things to create a new vision of society and in the industrial world created by industrial capitalism, we had a vision of society many of the viewers will remember Charlie Chaplin modern times. Everybody has a role to play and everybody has their part and its very hierarchical and so forth. Standardization, conformity, all these kind of values and essential qualities came out of the nature of the industrial capitalism. Well, now what is the social vision of the surveillance capitalism . My argument is that it stems from the whole Machine Learning framework, the Machine Learning framework you have computers and devices and so forth. Lets imagine self driving cars with. As the intelligence of the car learns something its not like one of the cars learned and the others are all on individual learning curves and they may or may not learn the same thing or learn it tomorrow or a year from now and in some of these architectures there is the central hub feeding it back to all of the individual parts. The point is as one where they all learned the same thing and move the same direction as far as the learning goes so if no one is going to make the mistake of not stopping at a train crossing, then all of them are learning that. If this is the highest mentality and structure. As i have studied how the surveillance capitalism thinks about society and how the breakthroughs are going to be transposed to the control and functioning of the society, the idea is that society itself becomes a high of organization where we are all in tune with the frontier of Machine Intelligence so theres Machine Learning taking place and that is being translated through the digital surround to all the devices and things that surround us they are hurting us in shaping and modifying your behavior in the direction of this one learning. So the learning isnt just for the sake of democracy or for the sake of a better society. Society. Its learninits learning for thf better commercial outcomes. So now the final piece of the puzzle is a prayer being shaped and modified it to move together in the direction that favors surveillance capitalism customers and the commercial outcomes that they seek to. The primary windows as i read your book i and a covered indusy is who fundamentally, or they buy and add because at some point its a more classical type of capitalism so those companies can pay google or facebook for this primary product. I think that it is often lost. What do you think about this commercial outcomes and how do you see those companies that are actually trying to sell a product changing the model that you were describing . Guest this is so important. What we are seeing is this new logic is going full circle spreading through every economic sector invented and elaborated in google and it became the default model. Host can i quote you . Guest google invented and perfected at the capitalism in the same way that gm presented and perfected the capitalism. It becomes the default module there are many ways the companies could figure out how to monetize and build value and institutionalized to do Value Proposition for actual people but they didnt do that because as soon as the path was discovered they skipped over the difficult Institution Building that they described in his work and they took that little bit of Creative Destruction but left behind a what it takes to build robust new models of Economic Production that aligned with the people in the society. But because it has been so lucrative and successful, we see companies in every sector migrating and missing it becomes full circle where the mass production began and the move to the models they in the early days. Now as many of our viewers will know, the Auto Industry is in a global slump. Car sales at a sustained low. There is no way out of this. The ceo of ford motor is now saying the new path to profit margin for the motor co companys going to be monetizing data from their drivers. We have 100 Million People driving cars with the little blue oval. The 100 Million People in vehicles driving a and shes very excited about the amount of data that we can get for these vehicles and he says theyve got for credit and we already know everything about you, so now we put together what you are doing in your car so its who you are, what you buy, how you shot, etc. , your mortgages and Financial Institutions and we have this robust data and he says who wouldnt want these data . This is th the data that we can leverage for the Frontier Organization so you asked about products, dont we still need products. What happens in this situation and they see this in all kinds of situations is the product becomes lost. Its a supplychain interface for the behavioral data so this began way back when it was sold at a much lower price point and the reason was they wanted to create an opportunity for all the data that could come so definitely the low cost because of the datagathering cost. Host i spent two years of yy life reporting on the strategies and the twists and turns that its taken and they say everything that you are saying the walls are exactly optimism around it. So, google and android is a has a monopoly you dont enter with a radical new strategy is in the extended monopoly they can leverage that. You described endpoints. Microsoft flat out says they connect this is their strategy to collect data at the edge of so they are saying these things very proudly. The difference between their excitement over it and what does the difference come from liquid about it specifically . Guest such an interesting question. A couple of things to say about that you say these things and then the public hate. They are also saying other things to each other and occasionally other things make it like the times and the guardian and just so many who have done in my view heroic work digging into these situations. We read all kinds of sources that are not typically produced and over the years documents with internal records. There is also a difference between what they are saying in the press release and what they are saying in terminally. There are some telling quotes where there were some people are giving weve got to make a margin its crazy to sell its so cheap. Its worth it to us to give it away. It is a logic that has been carefully concealed, designed to be hidden, designed for the ignorance of the people that have been converted into the resources of all material like behavioral data we are now the sources of the raw material. Once we thought the sources were free but now they think that they are free so we have gone through that. Once you understand how the pieces of the capitalism work and how they articulate and Work Together then you understand unless they are getting the behavioral data and scope of. You. All of these depend upon the data so once you begin to take those lines and put them into the context of how this logic works, they become alarmingly regulatory but until you understand the context. Shall we call it. I spent the last seven years trying to map the elephant and i think once you get the picture. Understanding something very different from what they thought they were conveying to the public. Host let me push on for just a little bit because i tend to agree you talk about the contracts that they were signing. You have to enter into a barga bargain. One reference is another one. But at some point you signed the contract. We know that they are spiking. We will slow it down to predict the models. It provides an enormous amount of futility is these utilities are indicated and its what we had always hoped for so, but they give the viewers a sample. I began t the book with the example of be aware so it was a project computer scientists and engineers at georgia tech in the year 2000 and it was all about many of the same goal to inform the occupants of the home with these kind of processes to optimize how the home runs and functions maybe it makes it efficient and effective. We put together the schematics and the idea is a simple closed loop. One is the censors of itself and of the other some other kind of device at the occupants had all the data and then they told us to figure out what it means it was theirs to decide if and where to share and what if anything to do with the data and so forth. That is the counterpoint to the next thermostat and then youve got a thousand privacy policies to review. The. But then you are losing the functionality that you look forward to in the first place. They stop supporting the system and updating it. They actually say things can happen because the functionality is no longer going to be supported. There is a kind of hostage taking if my data in return for the functionality they are compelling to say that there is harm that goes beyond no harm or economic harm to the. During this functionality hostage to be willing to hand over my ex. For the translation to the behavioral data for their prediction products in the markets. My argument is they signed on to the digital as a new era of democratization of knowledge. We are hitting some speed bumps right now. Iand the society we shouldnt be held hostage to these bargains made on the part that do not enjoy the legitimacy that are self authorized and what they do with the data from the experience. We have no influence over it and its done in a way that bypasses and usurps the decision rights. The other is more marketbased argument and the first one from above security argument when we gave everybody a windows pc, they forgot to install the updates because they couldnt sense when the so it was better to centralize the management and keep the bad actors out. We will do it for you. I think the arguments were made at a time. How does that saying go. We are more protected for some viruses but the fact of the matter is. The systems there is now a production and the highest model that affects every single one of us. Its not just the corruption of the global system that can shift elections and transformed so i think that we are past the centralization and we have many more tools for trading security and the decentralized atmosphere then we have 20 years ago at the beginning of the story. So thats one thing. Host you have aligned interests host they can ask me to help. They have Computing Devices and as they get smart and collect data is a problem that the plaintiff and the market question is they are buying our products and choosing to buy the iphone. You can change it and at that trade off is when people are choosing to make so i dont think that is my argument was tt would be the companys argument. You are buying and making this choice. I can tell you dont think that. They are interested in the product. Where does that interest come from . Guest for all kinds of reasons including the Market Opportunities and failures are presented with so what we have is a very contradictory situation. Surveillance capitalism has flourished in the past 20 years including the representation with the supplychain interface from the next thermostat to the digital assistant and anyone in between. One of the vendors in the country guest and the most controversial. Host when it isnt performing optimally, which is a lot so why do you do this data into the answer is very clear they see others one ad, one td to cover a piece of hardware because the recommendation is where we make money over if you hang a tepee on the ball and one transaction and that leads all the way to its just a dumb tv i will have to charge a higher price and people will pay this. The legal case that was made. Its for the ignorance. They have no idea whats going on with. Not because they are stupid because these operations are defined for us not to know him as. We simply dont know and we dont know enough because they are stupid, but because its all been designed for us its defined outside of our awareness and its designed to be hidden so that is one thing. If. If we look at the research thats been done even just within the past ten years. Theres about 50 or so significant pieces of survey research at the other universities and so forth. They asked people basically how do you feel about these Companies Taking your data is for most of the survey the outcome goes like this, people will say when people learn what the companies are actually doing they dont want to participate in if we are talking 70 and 80 of they do not regard it as legitimate and justified and that goes to all the numbers very carefully in the book. If. We have a flat screen tv in my home from what i want to say like 2010 maybe, it isnt internetenabled, it has all the functionality w we needed, thank you very much. And if i want to replace that, it is going to be very difficult to get a tv tha that isnt internetenabled where everything can go out there just like the rest of thermostat to address the third parties that may be impossible for me to know about and the folks discovered this doll our children are talking to. They are sent to the Nuance Communications which then sells dialogue on to other organizations and companies they are getting shunted into having purchased products and so forth in a way that really cannot technically be called a choice because it isnt an informed choice. The. They say this is a legitimate and the more i know about it, the less i prove about it and want to participate so there is a gap between the attitudes and behavior and how do we make sense of that gap. In the literature it is called the privacy paradox, but i say that this is not a paradox. This is a market failure. This is an aggressive mismatch because the demand as expressed by the attitude is i want to be able to trust the companies that i do business with and if they want some of my data strictly to improve the service to me, i want to know exactly what it wants to take. Its how the data is going to be used to approve the service to me. And if that is the case, we are nowhere back to the model player if the data is being collected about 100 persons to improve the service to me. So, that is where the demand is. We reduce the supply x. Is on a completely different trajectory to the demands of business customers who are paying to play in the behavioral citrus markets so the demands of m of lead the, the demand of the users if you will is erased from the equation. The supply is being addressed to another realm, another kind of marketplace. I would call it a twosided market, and i know that prizewinning economists have called it a twosided market, but i beg to differ because what is happening here on the user side is not a market precisely because there is no Value Exchange or transaction. There is no supply and demand relationship. There is no customer relationship. What is happening on this site is a group of users and increasingly global group of users who are the raw material that feeds the true marketplace which is the alleged second side so i believe it is still a onesided market. The problem is it isnt our site. Host if you go and ask apple they say we do this. They put up the billboard and see what happens. The most popular from the apple conception this is what they felt. We know that its a human right. Does that work against . Guest this goes to a key issue i cant express the importance of enough. When we ask what are the solutions. One side of the solution has to do with the Democratic Institution and what pieces have to come from the decadent institutions. But they also want to talk about competitive solutions. If you buy my argument here that we have a tremendous. If i identify the World Historical opportunity somebody wants to step into the gap between supply and demand they have the opportunity to have every person on earth as their customer because you look at the surveys and for all the data suggests is that nobody freely with informed consent nobody wants to buy into the surveillance capitalism. If you can truly offer the kind of. You will be coming into a market void where theres been a profound market failure. And enough market void you have an opportunity for the historic leap forward for the trajectory of the Digital Future to the path that we were once on when we thought that this was all about us rather than about them. The question in my mind is a shout out to tim cook. Can they truly step into this space . Obviously we know that theyve spoken to brussels back in october and made some very strong remarks about the commitment to enter a antithetical because it. The. You put together and to see apple still has work to do. The economist laid out for a true kind of economic leap forward for the