Marketplace and outside the dynamic to bring that into the market so they can be sold as well and the famous historian wrote about the basic mechanisms of industrial capitalism and the idea was human activity the things that people did every day for that marketplace made it possible for labor to be sold and that wage labor was possible at all the things that became the hallmark of modernity and in a similar way nature was subordinated to the dynamic and reborn as real estate on land. So fast forward one century at the beginning of the 21st century surveillance capitalism was invented, the insight was we take Human Experience specifically private Human Experience and we can bring that into the marketplace to be sold as behavioral data. We are coming into this space private experience uninvited. We are doing that typically in ways that are secret and designed to evade awareness. We are registering your experience in a variety of ways and then we are translating that into behavioral data that can be fed into the production process which we call Machine Intelligence. That Machine Intelligence produces prediction so produces predictions of your behavior what you will do now soon and later those prediction products are in new kinds of markets that trade exclusively in behavioral futures as a new kind of derivative. What struck me in the opening of the book that labor change to we are to become the industrialized society and your thesis is surveillance capitalism is once again changing who you are because of that protection on prediction is persuasive is that fully realized . Where are we in that spectrum. You ask such an interesting question because this goes to the heart of the book in the sense because my thesis is we dont understand the mechanisms and internal logic of surveillance capitalism but in the end this moves beyond economics the commercial and business side of things that creates a new vision of society and created by industrial capitalism we have a vision of society that many viewers will remember Charlie Chaplin modern times of course that was a parody of this new vision that works like clockwork and i factory where not own the mass production and consumption but mass society and everybody has a role to play in their part to make a contribution that is hierarchical and so forth and standardization, conformity all of those values of social qualities to come out of the nature of industrial capitalism. Now what is the social vision of surveillance capitalism . It stems from the whole Machine Learning framework you have various computers and devices now look at self driving cars as the intelligence of the cars learn something its not like one of the cars learns and the others are on the individual learning curve learning it tomorrow or one year from now that as soon as one learns they all learn. And in some of these architectures theres a central hub that does the learning and then all of the individual parts so as one learns they all learn they all learn the same thing and move in the same direction as far as the learning goes. If one will no longer make a mistake not stopping at a train crossing, then all of them are learning. This is the highest mentality and that hive structure and as i have studied to think about society and how the breakthroughs would be transposed from the control and functioning of society the idea is society itself becomes a High Organization where we all moved into and with a friend tear of the Machine Intelligence is at any given moment there is Machine Learning taking place that is translated through all the devices and what surrounds us with a digital interface and in a variety of ways they nudge and coax to modify behavior and this one direction of learning talk about surveillance capitalism and not for the sake of democracy or a Better Society that better commercial outcomes. So now the final piece of the puzzle is that we are learning to be shaped and modified together in the direction that favors surveillance capitalism customers in those commercial outcomes that they seek. The primary question as i read your book is who fundamentally are these customers . Buying ad tracking . Because at some point to make that transaction. So that they can pay google or facebook. That is often lost so look at those commercial outcomes and with the changing of the model. This is so important. What we are seeing is this the logic going full circle through every economic sector. It was invented and elaborated at google, then facebook, the default model. Host can i call you . You have an amazing line. Google invented perfected surveillance capitalism the same way that gm invented and perfected managerial capitalism. You are right with me. Heres where i am going. Right to gm and ford. So to become the default model in Silicon Valley because they dont have the obvious product and there are many ways these companies could have figured out how to monetize and still value and institutionalize the opposition for actual people who are now call users. That they didnt do that because that monetization was discovered that they skipped over the difficult institutions that the economist described in his work to take that little snippet about Creative Destruction that left behind important learning of the years and decades and centuries it takes new models of Economic Production that are aligned to people in society. So with the monetization process because the surveillance was so lucrative and starting leave successful we see companies in every sector and heres where we come full circle to the Ford Motor Company where mass production began with the breakthrough to the model t back in the early days of the 2h century. And car sales are sustained and there is no way out of this on the horizon, the ceo of ford motor is now seeing that the new path to profit margin is the Ford Motor Company will be monetizing data from their driver. And then to have 100 Million People with the little blue ovals. And he is very excited about the amount of data we can get from these vehicles. And we have ford credit. And with ford credit we already know everything about you. So now we put together what you are doing in your car, saying in your car, where you are going all this Background Information we have about you, see you are how you shop and what you by your mortgages and all financial information. And we have a robust deep dive about you and who wouldnt want this data . And the data that we can leverage for a new frontier of modernization. Dont we still need products . What happens in this situation is all kinds of situation the product is a supply chain interface for behavioral data. This began with the android strategy of course the android was sold at a much lower price point than the iphone and the reason was they wanted to create a frictionless opportunity as possible for all the data. So give it away if you can. Definitely below cost because it is a data gathering device. Host i spent years of my life reporting on the Android Google strategy and they say everything that you say with those goals and their optimism around it and then to license that for free and their goal was microsoft has a monopoly and then use google with that User Experience and then they can leverage that. And then you describe the endpoint. And that you cover extensively in your book to say this strategy to point to that we collect data has the most Viable Company in the market so they say this very proudly and when im trying to gather that is the difference between their excitement over it and to be rewarded for it which is very popular and your warning so what is the difference . Such an interesting question. There are a couple things to say about that. You are right they say these things with the public pitch and euphoria and all of that they assess say other things to each other and occasionally what makes it into and those journals that probe public a and in the guardian and so many journalist who have done her role at work in my view digging into the situations. I listen to earnings calls and reports and all kinds of sources that are not typically produced by the public and then over the years we see documents of internal reports so there is also a difference between what they say in the press release and internally even in the case of android. In the book i include some very tallying quotes about the android strategy at the time for some people in google were arguing we have to make a margin on this phone its crazy to sell it so cheap and others say no. If we can get data through this phone its worth it to us to give it away. The second point is surveillance capitalism is the logic that has been carefully concealed designed to be decipherable and hidden for the people who were now converted into three on resources of raw material. We are now the freeze sources of raw material once he thought the services were free so we have gone through that flip. So once you understand how they articulate or Work Together then you understand unless you get behavioral data and then talk about these economies of action they cannot make competitive prediction they can to be successful in the new future marketplace. So all of this depends on the dataflow. Once you begin to take the same happy line with the smart age and put them into that context of how this logic works it is lonely but and tell you understand the context it seems like Everything Else but you put one piece together then another piece and slowly it emerges so i look at it like the old fable of the blind man and the elephant. And i spent the last seven years to map the elephant which you get the picture of the elephant this changes and you can never have those plans again without hearing and understanding something very different from what they thought they were conveying to the public. I tend to agree with you but talk about the 1000 contracts you have to enter into some bargain and insanity. But at some point you put this on your wall and sign the contract to provide some utility. Maybe the regular programmable on our system how those in those that are spiking and we know how long it has to heat up or shut it down and then to predict your specific model thats one small example. At least as far as i can tell. That provides an enormous amount of utility and then the crisis is shifted to set utility outweigh . My argument is the utilities are granted this is what we always hope for. So let me give our viewers a quick example. I begin the book with the example of the aware home. That is a project for georgia tech years ago with this smart home with many of the same goals many occupants the process and the abilities to optimize maybe makes it more efficient and effective and the things that can aid the occupants with their health and communication with families. All of those things. When they put together the schematics of the aware home the idea was a simple closed group one is it is embedded in the home itself and the other is the occupants of the home. The designers imagine the computer or other device all the data from the home goes to the occupant and then they have tools to figure out what it means and what if anything to do with the data and so forth that is the counterpoint to the nest thermostat that the analysis now save you put a nest thermostat on your wall if youre going to be vigilant you have 1000 policy privacy to review but if you dont agree then you have it on your wall but guess what you are losing functionality and stop supporting the system and actually say things can happen like your pipes word freeze because that functionality would no longer be supported. So now there is a quid pro quo and a hostagetaking mind data in return for the functionality you can keep talking about to say that there are harms beyond economic harms but the point is there is a new functionality hostage to hand over my experience into behavioral data for the futures markets. My argument is be signed on to the digital as a new era of empowerment and democratization of knowledge. That is what i want. That is what we all deserve. Twentyfirst century citizens living in advanced Democratic Society. Host we are hitting some speed bumps right now. I believe our democracy is holding we have been in tough situations before and have come through them and i believe very deeply of the robust of the sanctity of democracy citizens of a Democratic Society we should not be held hostage to these that do not enjoy the legitimacy of the vote and are claiming of the experience and what they do with the data from our experience this is not accessible to us we have no influence and it is expressly done in a way to bypass the decision. And with that security argument and the other one the first one the security argument to put in the users home give everybody a windows pc and then to forget to install the updates so its better for us to centralize management and keep the bad actors out a new do this more effectively if you run your own mail server its more likely you will not be good it person. Gmail says we will do it for you and prevent that we can do that more effectively does that seem compelling to you . To keep those bad actors out the way facebook is the way google keeps that actors out. I think those arguments were made at a time when first of all surveillance capitalism was not prevalent and there were more security issues. Host those issues have gone down. Yes, but in the security model, how does the saying go . In this case it is negative because we are more protected. Is i tend to agree wiu although i often called to help fix my familys computers you are not a corporation, you are part of the family then you have aligned interests with your parents making sure the home of functions the way they want it to. Host they can ask me for help but many people are much worse managing their advice than they think they are and its smart as they collect data. Protecting it is important so you have to make a choice how you are going to do it and as they were blissfully unaware it is a problem that you point to and so the market question is they are choosing to buy the phone. That tradeoff would be the companies argument with. Guest again, its a hugely important question for all kinds of reasons including the Market Opportunities and so, what we have is a very contradictory situation. Surveillance capitalism has florist in the past 20 years and including its representation now and virtually every product that has the word smart in front of it in the supplychain interface for the surveillance capitalism. This to the collect the digital assistant. Host i do agree with you. If a match with one of the biggest tv vendors in the country and among the most controversial. I have a video tv and tells me when things are pinging the network when its not performing optimally. So why do you do with this Data Collection and the answer is clear. We solve the one ad im trying to cover the cost of this piece of hardware. People seem to be choosing. What we understood since you brought that up and i do write about this in the book the legal case that was made that is a perfect example of design for ignorance. One reason people are choosing is because they have no idea whats going on, not because we are stupid, but because these operations are defined to know what a load what their purpose is and what they are doing. You are a tech expert asking the manufacture why arent you doing this. [laughter] so, we simply dont know because its all been designed for us to. Its designed to be outside of our awareness and its designed to be hidden so thats one thing. In the book i ask the question how do they get agree with it and i answer it with 16 reasons, so theres no one simple reason that if we zoom out from that a little bit, i look at the many significant pieces of research that have been done even within the past ten years there is about 50 or so that come out of other great universities and support and they ask people if basically how do you feel about these Companies Taking your data without even knowing very much detail. Two of them are a little bit inconclusive because of what the researchers write we couldnt get conclusive results because the participants in the survey didnt know that the companies were taking data. But for most of the surve survee outcome goes like this. People say when people learn that the companies are actually doing they disagree with it. As you know pretty soon id already gone through this in my own home we have a flatscreen tv in my home from what do i want to say, 2010 if not internet enabled. It has all the functionality that we need. If i want to replace that, its going to be very difficult to get a tv that isnt internetenabled where everything can go just like the masked thermostat that may be impossible for me to know about were the famous doll that i write about where folks discover this go that our children are talking to is picking up the dialogue of our children and they are being sent to a Company CalledNuance Communications which then sells the dialogue onto other organizations and companies and institutions including the cia and the nsa that are developing the Voice Recognition software is becoming all the way to the cia or the Voice Recognition for these on supply chains. So, what we have is a situation where we are increasingly getting shunted into a having to purchase products so on and so forth in a way that cannot technically be called a choice and its a purchase thats happening because they alternatives are being foreclosed. I say this is not a paradox if i want to know exactly what it takes, how it takes it. I want to give my permission for every single step in the chain. I want 100 transparency how the data will be used to improve the service to me and if that is the case we are back to the model where the data is being collected at 100 to improve the service to me. Thats where the demand is that the supply is on a different trajectory with the demand is paying to play in the citrus markets so the demand of we