Transcripts For CSPAN2 David Maraniss They Marched Into Sunlight 20240712

They held a demonstration, the demonstration turned violent. These two stories from different parts of the world come together at a new book titled they marched into sunlight, the authors David Maraniss. Hello David Maraniss. Your epilogue you write that connections fascinate you more than ideology. What is that mean . And how was it reflected in this book . I guess it means i am a journalist and historian. I am not trying to make a specific theological point when i do my reporting. I believe over the course of years our history is looked at different ways. I want to present 1967 and that point in time as actively and deeply as i could and stripped away some of the stereotypes of the 60s that sort of make it hard so so hard to see from the perspective of today. Who is this for . I hope it is for everybody. It certainly starts with the author you write about something you are interested in. My previous book what are there it was about bill clinton or Vince Lombardi always came around to the 60s. I am a product of that generation. I was born in 1949, i was 18 years old in 1967. I think like everyone in my generation, the non shaped who i am today. So its first of all for that generation perhaps. Vietnam vets are people who are back in the states. Its also for younger people of today who are fascinated by vietnam in that era and want to learn more about it. And also for the older generation. Thats one of the things about this book im not writing to the left, not writing it to the right not to the younger old but for everybody to understand that era. Before we get to that story and how to do it you meld these two stories, why did you choose to meld two stories at all and why did you choose these two stories . I had read a lot about vietnam preparing for this book. There is wonderful literature about the war itself. There are some excellent books on the sounds much overall about that. And of course a lot of great books analyze the Johnson Administration and the Nixon Administration later a Foreign Policy study. But had not seen a book that tried to bring those very, very different worlds together. They were worlds that are dealing with the same thing which was this work. So i started by saying i was interested in 1967 because i think that was when everything was still up in the air. It was before the offensive of 1968 that change the Public Perception of the war. As right when the Counter Culture was emerging i wanted to capture that very moment. When i was a freshman at wisconsin i am not a character in the book until the very end but that moment stuck in my mind. That is when i started with a demonstration which i observed pretty want to the library and see what was going on in vietnam and found this incredible battle and that is how the idea started to read. So two days in october 1967 these things happen. Yes october 17 and 18th. See niclas over the vietnam side. You spend most of your time talking about an area vietnam where is it . We have a map and if you want a point to it that scraper. Its 30 to 40 miles north of saigon a little northwest. Its where the First Infantry Division was moving its headquarters. The entire brigade, the battalion i write about was headquartered there. It was both a small village and a large American Military base at the same time. That is where everything starts in this book. Who are these gentlemen . Not in particular but what division customer. Its a black Alliance Division of the first im sorry its the black line battalion of the First Division the second of the 28th recalled. Its composed of four companies of soldiers. What is a mangy black line . Means youre part of a long tradition of soldiers going back to 1901 the black lines of canteen eight was a major battle in world war i and thats where it started. At this time just putting this again in perspective the time of this battle, that had not yet happen for. No in the American Military was still focusing on a policy of search and destroy. General westmoreland the commanding general of the forces in vietnam, believed the war was being one and could be one through battles of attrition much like general grant in the civil war, you go out there, you find the enemies you kill enough of them and you will win. He thought that was happening at that point. They were sending out these battalions to find the vietcong, and kill them thinking they could win the war that way. So what happened this case . In this case its an incredible story where there was a regiment of the peoples army of vietnam, the first regiment was called ahead some other nicknames as well. Losing vietnam since 1960 when there are some of the original fighters to come from the south. They, at this point, were starving they could not find any rice anywhere that whole swath of vietnam. They were moving from one service camp to another in search of rice to feed their men. They were literally on their way to another city where they were supposed to take part in an attack on the city they would be somewhat of a precursor but the attack of the tet offensive. To the couldnt find any food so they came into this area in search of rice. They found this american battalion was in there looking for vietcong and they set up an ambush. So and this is it right here this is a seeker zone you mention . Yes it goes back to the fight against the french. It was not the densest jungle book pretty dense triple canopy in some places. There were farms around their and water buffalo. It was typical geography of that part of vietnam is very hard to maneuver them. Why did we move that so many men that day . There are so many reason given for that answer. You can start with the specific which is the americans were terribly outnumbered. There were less than 140 men who were on the battlefield that day prayed there over 121200 at least members of the first regiment of vietnamese fighting against them. They had been watching the americans for two days. Theyd set up this ambush ahead of time. They had men in trees looking out for them. They had headquarters in the back getting reports on where the americans were coming. The commander of the vietnamese first regiment said, they had been watching from the moment they left their base camp. There are many other reasons the battle took place though it did. Another one is that a Company Commander in the black lines battalion name welch is a hero of this book at them anyway he is. Hed been very leery of marching straight back to where they had been the day before the way his superiors wanted them to do. Tried to talk the commander out of that. He was overruled and thats another reason the battle happened in such an awful way. So heres a picture he said hes 27 . So hes 27 years old hed been in the special forces. He was made an officer in the field, he had come up through the ranks he was a great soldier thats how he got his own company as a First Lieutenant. Perhaps the only First Lieutenant in the division who commanded his own company that point. Theyre mostly captains. So 61 of a proximally one or 41 men died that day. Or that day or wounded from that battle. And another 50 or 60 were wounded in different ways. Many of the men said they were surprised anyone survive. Wyatt where their subsequent different stories about this battle . Because it was not the time when the Johnson Administration or anybody who was pushing the war at that point wanted to acknowledge the great First Infantry Division could walk into an ambush and get wiped out on the whole theory then was they would win every battle if they could just find the vietcong and get them to stand and fight. In this book, as i did my research i discovered documents that prove beyond a doubt they concocted a rosy version of what took place there. The men who fought in battle knew what had happened. They were angry about the depiction of the battle than anyone else. At almost strip them of their own honor to lie about it. We are going to learn a lot about some of the young men who were there that day. I want to just grab one right now so people can get a feel for danny sikorsky. I call him the quintessential milwaukee workingclass kid. He was a voice check in milwaukee wisconsin much of the other part of my book takes place in wisconsin. I use him to make part of that connection. He had signed up as a volunteer for the draft, went to vietnam at age 19. And was killed in the battle from the south side of milwaukee his nickname they could not give him that name in milwaukee heres what you write in your book you said when he was home just before he left for vietnam he gave her, meeting his sister diane advice about how to deal with boyfriends and what to do about their father in their new stepmother. Together they remembered the smell of their mothers homemade soup. Back when danny was born his tatted planted a pine tree by the side of the house on eighth street. Now when a young soldier took a trip back to the Old Neighborhood he noticed the new owner had cut the pine tree down. Why that level of detail . Thats the way i write. Im always looking for you can call poetic connections, its of the points in life you remember. I had several long conversations with dannys sister, who was over the course of the year she became more and more willing to remember things about the family and danny. It is by going back to people again and again she started writing me letters and notes remembering more. When you get that level of detail which makes people remember and makes them connected in a human way with all of these characters. That, above all is what i try to do my book. Willie c johnson. He was one of the platoon leaders for the Alpha Company which was the lead company in this battle. His entire platoon just about got wiped out. He had a habit mckee was considered a great sergeant. He had his men really trust him he had a habit of singing a soul song on his way into the fields every day which was not on wood. That was sort of his symbol of good luck. And in this case turned into an incredibly ironic point. The signal for the attack by the vietcong commander was three knocks out a block of wood. A connection. Lets move on to the american side of the story. What was going on at the university of wisconsin in madison. Why did you choose this particular except for the timing, with this important you personally . Guest i guess it was. It was somewhat in important for me personally it always been on the wisconsin campus for a month at that point. The first process i had ever seen as i have said, for had to interview myself of this book and remembering that event i was sort of on the edge of the crowd i have vague memories of teargas wafting and seeing people come out with blood he heads. But not many great specific memories. My whole sort of evolution of how i thought about the war and life was just happening right then. Why are you demonstrate that . Because Dow Chemical Company of michigan which created napalm which was a jellied gas had become the symbol of the war machine. Dow Chemical Company would travel around the country with recruiters going to campuses trying to sign up seniors to go work for their Chemical Company. Starting in 1966, actually at Wayne State University in detroit and i think berkeley, a whole wave of demonstrations against Dow Chemical Company began. October 1967 and going on for several months. Decision was made in wisconsin they would try to obstruct the interviews. Thats what was happening that day. Why would a company like dell go into a campus where they already know theres an antiwar feeling . One of the parts of the reporting of this book im most proud of is a couple of chapters on Dow Chemical Company to get inside them and see what they were thinking. I went up to midland, michigan with my nephew, dan, who helped research that part of the book. We spent a day up there in their archives. They let me into their archives in part this is the way life of a historian, the president of the company had read my bensalem party book he liked it he thought i was a fair and thorough writer and journalist. He let me go to their archives account internal letters and documents with a very honest debate going on inside the company. One of the publicist wrote about he was concerned they would be called the merchants of death. And then said well should we stop making it were not really making much money off of is its not one of our bigger enterprises. Should be given to these protests . No. So they decided they would keep doing it. C1 how did the demonstration turned violent . And why . Guest why does a demonstration turned violent . A lot of mistakes on all sides. Some of the students, there were probably 300 students inside the Commerce Building which had very narrow hallways its almost like being in a submarine. They had obstructed the entire hallway where the dow interviews were taking place. Most of the people in that room were there because they oppose the war in vietnam they thought they were having an active civil disobedience where most of be dragged out by the police and arrested. Most of the police had never dealt with a destructive demonstration before. Theyd never been trained in rioting except a few were trained by the Chicago Police force and rioting which later said that may not of been the best place to be trained. In any case theres very little training in that part. The administration of the university of wisconsin had essentially lost control of the event by that point. The chancellor of the universit university, who will talk about more later, was a tragic great figure in this book. In any case, the police came into move up the students, there is so little room in there, was almost inevitable there be pushing and shoving food one of the policeman fell against a window that jagged edges of the window started making deep. They students push back some of the cops came back they hated these kids they thought were spoiled brats and most of the cops are from the east side of madison workingclass men who had absolutely nothing in common with the students. There are some of that. This is a chance to crack some heads. There are some students in their who were prepared to be violent and return there are just a few of them taken off their belts and using them as weapons. And just everything unfolded in the ugliest possible way for a very brief period of time the cops, the Police Officers just plowed through their bashing heads. Later well talk about the impact it had nationally and what was going on after words. I want to make one other point its coppola but as the book is come out. People said they use equivalents for people diana protests were some kids get their head bashed. First of all the terms loaded i dont know what moral is in these cases. Obviously there are enormous differences. I am not trying to say they are equal that a soldier who is facing a life or death situation is equal to a protester whos going to purchase and they might get hit they go out live. Trying to bring together these two worlds at that time. The reader can see is the book unfolds the difference. They are not meant to be equal weight in terms of what happened that day. And finally bridge the two events by whats going on in washington. Yes, lbj is the hinge between the two of them. Because at that point, he was feeling and normas pressure on how the war was going and how the war was developing. Every day he was consumed by those two events. He would have the situation room filled them with reports on every battle in vietnam and have a daily count of how many enemies had been killed so called the body counts. And how many battles had taken place and whether they were winning the war, what new documents they been able to retrieve from the North Vietnamese and the vietcong. In their policy advisers on what protests were taking place, where and how that was going. Unknown to the public at that time, lbj essentially, and these very days had decided he was not going to run for president again. Theres one moment in the book or returns to the secretary of state and the secretary of defense and the other members of the war council and says he decided not to do it. They try to talk him out of it. That is unfolding as these two events are. The other is his clear he has no clue how to get out of the situation. As events are about to happen he turns to his advisor and said how are we ever going to win . This book opens with a list of cast of characters, why do you do that . Because there are so many people in this book. And i knew the reader i dont the reader to feel overwhelmed because as the book unfolds you get to know which characters youre going to be following through the book. Which one serve as a role for a specific point to be made along the way. But whenever you are reading a book you say whoa its been a few chapter since that name came up he can go to the front look at the cast of characters and be refreshed. I think when you have, is this book does a few hundred characters. I didnt do it to intimidate people i did it to help them. Host and your style is to go back and forth you may talk about a personal one chapter than you will see them for a while. There people in the early chapters that come back in chapter 27. See when you started this book when . The research . Guest i started the book in year 2000 was working at the Washington Post writing about al gore and his biographical stories for the Washington Post. I came up with the concept of then, started doing some interviews in 2000, many of the key characters i meant for the first time then. Host book tv cameras and not catch up with you until your trip to vietnam which is january 2002. Guest that was or the end of reporting. My general style as i keep reporting until i write the final word. I did the bulk of my first year end a half of reporting and generator 2002 in vietnam was the last leg of that. Host im really catching up with the with the video they will see in the last part of your work for you started writing again . Guest asserted writing the dad got home. The story and part of is sitting at the National Archives are eight or nine other archives and went on going through documents which is exciting for me but not necessarily for people watching me do it. See once our cameras followed do when you went to vietnam for your researcher why did you take people with you that were important to the story in the book . Guest thats a good question. Acids unfolding and it happens to me a lot, i realize the fortuitous nest of something either as its happening or afterthefact but not before. [laughter] i brought clarke welch along because i know he was an essential character in the book. We had been talking over the course of that year end a half he made it clear to me that he was ready to go back. He wanted to go back. And so i was first going to go and october 2001. But when september 11 happened i was covering that for the Washington Post so we waited until january. In any case clarke wanted to go with me and i knew that would be invaluable. Consuelo allen came along. She is the daughter of terry allen junior was another major character in the book. He was the Battalion Commander of the black alliance battalion. He with his men but that day into the battle and was killed. She was a young girl, she was the oldest of three daughters she was five or six at the time. And of course she knew her dad her younger sisters did not really as much. But that moment of his death shaped her life unavoidably for all this time. She wanted to go and find the place where her dad was killed which was an incredibly powerful idea. So i wanted both of those people to go with me. One of the fascinating things about that, is that clarke had had very difficult hard feelings about the leadership including terry allen that got them into that battle. Before we meet her tell me about her grandparents. That is more the fascinating things about the battle is terry allen junior who was killed in the battle who is the son of terry allen senior who is the commanding general of the First Division and world war ii and also of another division, the timberwolf later. He was a soldiers had general and away, ernie pyle wrote about him terry was a general he went to hang out with he was more that type. Here he allen junior was funneled into the army through his love and affection for his father and his fathers love and affection for him. I think terry allen seed never made it to be a fourstar general and thought his son would. And of course it ends this tragedy. So his daughter went with you to vietnam in 2002. What role did she play in the overall writing of the book . And research of the book . Guest i went to el paso where she was living at the time. She helped me find documents of her father and her mother who was also a key character in the book. There was a review this morning there was jean ponder allen which was a hero and i thought that was incredibly understanding on terrys part to do that. And anyway she help me with that, and the best thing she did help paso took me to the h h carwash which has a best mexican food. [laughter] she became invaluable throughout this process. She was an avenue for a lot of different places and people for me. She enlisted her trusted me and persuaded her mother to talk to me. Host lets take a look at consuelo and she talked with us at the time in vietnam and she reminisced a little bit about what it was like the last time she saw her father. I was very scared. And i asked him not to go. Because i said i was afraid he was going to be killed. And he didnt say anything to that. He said i need you to take care of the girls. And my sister and i both had been hiding when he had come to say goodbye. Were you hiding . It was under big mahogany table my mother had. Close thinking if i got very small he wouldnt find me and he would not go. Back to the writing part of this how do you trust a five yearolds memory . Guest most five yearolds wouldnt dinner probably would not hold up in a court of law. one of the things you do as a journalist is you grow to have intuition about people who have an agenda or dont pop people who have good memories or not. Doesnt mean theyre better people. But some people just happen to have better memories. And then you find that people have specific memories about very finite thing might forget Everything Else that happens in an entire year. But remember one thing and who would forget that particular moment . Lets take a look at welch today can you talk a little bit about what happened prior to his time that he went to vim in 1967. He grew up in new hampshire. He was the son of a colonel and he enlisted in the military right out of high school. And had a very active career in special forces in many places before, before he got to vietnam. He arrived seeking to be in special forces but they needed mark like anybody else because there was constant transfers and of officers there would be moved around all of the time so he got there and discovered that he was going to First Institute of vision. He was put in charge of a put to it at first and was so good he immediately so, obviously, better than any other officer and that level that he was promoted to have his own company as the battalion in vietnam was getting extra forth companies Delta Companies if so he got the form his own Delta Company. In the next segment he talks about what it was like the day he found out he was going to vietnam. I wanted to go to vietnam. I say that little piece of paper my wife and i look at it some time how stupid we looked. I wanted to go to vietnam my wife supported it. It was not surprising at all when i wasnt ordered to vietnam it was as if my prayers were answered i wanted to go to vietnam. I belonged to special forces then. And the little, crest of the special forces in the motto, as i understand it mean it is that you liberate the oppressed. And i fell for that. I truly when the special forces sent me to south america, i thought i was going at direct, you know, working for the president of the United States to liberate oppressed people. And when we all discovered that the were there were people in vietnam that were being oppressed, and it was a chancing to liberate the oppressed, i fell for that. I believed it. I believed i absolutely believed in it with my everything. And i wanted to go to vietnam. And then a very simply answer came back to yes they approved that i could go to vietnam and, of course, im ready. [laughter] to liberate the oppressed. A difficult character how did you get to the detail leak we were talking to detail on danny fuls it difficult to get to that level of welch . Well, it was our first meeting. He describes it more detail to get his trust and to win Peoples Trust without in any way promising them anything, that i might not be able to live up to. And ever a member month it was dealing with them he trust in me so much that he gave me all of the letters that he sent back to his wife lacey from vietnam. And those letters are just the energy of a lot of the book because theyre in so much detail. He was so, a very good writer. His emotions and his state of mind at any point along the way in the months leading up to the battle are very clear he was very descriptive and drawings of where he lived. All of that was invaluable, and it was only through getting clark welchs trust that i could start to feel yeah. I starting to feel what it was like there. Well we did ask clark welch about first time he met you and what he thought about it and what he told us when we were in vietnam. Showed up half hour early got a cup of coffee in another part of the hotel where i could watch when he showed up he matched his description came in right on time. He sat down, he looked like the right kind of person he matched i could hear jim saying it is all right to trust him. I looked at him looked like i could trust him so i picked up my cup of coffee and watched bent over sat down and i asked him, i introduced myself and said that jim shelton said its all right for me to talk to you and that i can trugs you and i think, i think david was a little bit offended question about anybody trusting him. And i asked him very early, i said i will talk to you. But i want you to treat my men fairly. I want you to treat them fairly. I think fairly and correctly are something, and david looked that up and he said i will tell the truth. I will tell the truth. But as ebbs thats not what i asked you. I said ill talk to you if you treat my men fairly he said again i will tell, find the truth and i will tell the truth. And then i thought about that and temptedded to say you bastard thats not what i asked you but i decided to trust david. [laughter] and hes never told me he treated, told me that he treat them fairly or make them look good e he never said that and what he said was from the beginning find the truth. I did ask him right after that, before we get into the interview part that he had come there for and i had come there for. I had asked him that in his research, if he ever found anything that was different from what if i i was going tell him d he let me know because for 32 years sometimes my mind would say everything i read says this happened. I think this happened. This possible that im wrong. It is possible that none of this happened so i asked him whenever i see him ever since then including recently when were here. I dont have to ask him anymore because he tells me he says clark i still have found nothing different from what you remember. Why was it so important to the clark welch to about find out the truth in this . That they shipped everything thats followed for clark welch in his life. Here he was a great soldier. Believing in what he was doing believing most of all in his men he had a wonderful rep lation in vietnam for finding the action but getting his men out alive. He was haunted by that day from 1967 until time i met him. Anding your mind can play tricks on you so he was thinking did i did i screw up more than i thought i did and something i dont remember and it was incredibly important for him and still is. He talked a lot about the level of his anger of against towards a lot of people. During has time there and show level of anger that e had talk about and mention theres storm language in this. So that they know in advance. My anger at the people who allowed us to be there who orders us to be there is still there and thats the president of the United States on down to the people and ive had that anger for 34 years. That anger is gripping me to do what i did in the army and where other people says the army is [bleep] ed up i would say they are [bleep] ed up beyond anything that you can believe in life and death matters and thats why im going to stay in. I had terrible anger i have terrible anger at people, system that allowed that to happen. Now, after saying that, when i get up on the 17th i kopght say this is screwed up. President of the United States is [bleep] up on the morning of the 17th, on the morning of the 16th on morning of the 15th on morning of the 14th, if i told my soldiers were doing our job. Whefn i talked to my best frengtd the First Sergeant my First Sergeant who was alife and well today, and flu t through david and othr peoples efforts im until touch with him again. We never talked about then how screwed up it was. I made sure i would think about it at night or wake up in the night say man. This is this is crazy. But the instangt i had my job to do and itd got 150 guys and i talked to them every day. Every chance i could i talked to them. I never said politicians are screwed up or boss is screwed up. Even on that last day when i when i believed that our plan for the 17th was the wrong thing to do. On the evening of the 16th, when i believed myself with what were planning to do tomorrow is the wrong thing to do i never, i thought that when i heard the order and other people told me i said man thats screwed up. I dont think i said that. I was a lieutenant. My boss was the colonel my boss was the Battalion Commander. I do believe i probably said Something Like jesus christ. Or oh, it was clear to a number of people who were there in talking later about it. Thats up to them to say. But i did not approve of what we were going to do the 17th. I asked to talk to the colonel after the order in privacy of his tent i talked quietly and calmly in a tent the best i could if yield anything wrong that week, it was in failing to prevent it from happening the night before. What do you think when you see that . It gives me chills. Still i mean, i he said that to me, first, second interview in more detail the third interview and then seeing him say to you that much later. Its still same reaction i get. And i think that helped explain why television he still thinks he should have talked him out of it. But terry al only was under enormous pressure too from above him commander of the First Division thought to be too timid in pursuing and his age were pushing general to push stronger and he was pushing down to brigade leaders and down to alan so when clark welch questioned them going after the first regime in way they were going to he wasnt being heard so i think it is no way clark welch fault but in some situations leaders dont hear because they dont want to hear. Weve seen his anger. And on the other side, you write in your book about the softser side of clark welch, in fact, you write when he was inside that he was kind of enduring figure in the area of the hotel continental. Clark welch hes one of the sweetest men ive ever met in my life. Surprise some people. But people are complicated. And hes got different sides to him. But hes a gentlemen. Hes intelligent. He has a sophisticated grasp of things i think hes a very conservative man, but hes not locked into proving everything his way. He has a sophisticated way of runsing other people including the what he fought against. He tried to learn vietnamese before he went over there when we wents the street, the two young women who worked on streets of vietnam if selling books and other things, head over heels and they took him around town and looked after him. They get him coffee and direct him to right places they pull his hair. They punch his stomach. They chewed him out when he got his wallet so listen, you know clark welch great general of the great soldier to get his quality stole then all of thissing drivers loved if clark welch my wife liked to talk about how they say clark welch my friend. My friend, you know, and yeah reserve immediately is drawn to this man. He told you the story of how he felt during his distinct prior to 1967 october when he killed or was part much a group that ill canned a young girl. He told us it that story and we caught it on videotape. But how did you describe it in the book . He was then the leader of the Reconnaissance Platoon for the black lions and he was starting up a night ambush in the area southing of like their main base camp. Because they knew that it was a place where the vietnam were transporting other thingings and they set up this ambush. And then he then he described to me how it unfolded from there. And it, it came up after he saw a young vietnamese woman give instructionings. At the tunnel and this is what it looked like. Sweet little voice. She ring of what she could have been, you know, 35 years ago. That was the enemy sweet little girl. What a mess we were on a an ambush. We did what we were supposed to do first in the morning and the enemy came down the trail and we ambushed them and we killed them. We knocked them all down about six of them. They were pushing bicycles. And they were they didnt shoot back. Man we just fired, and then it was over, there and when i came out on the road to see if we could take the prisoner and make sure they were dead and had any identification, are the little bicycle in front the bicycle that knocked over the and when i little person when i went to see if they were still alive we would take them prisoner to see if they have anything, any identification any uniform or anything. It was a girl. It was a little girl. And little girl like that. Jesus christ i didnt think i would do that. Im sorry. Where will are we supposed to go here . Oh. Who was the woman who was at the end . Any wife linda. What will is her role in terms of writing of the book . Shes everything. I mean, she reads every word i write. She took pictures for this book she came to vietnam with me. And shes, shes just made it possible for us to do these things. Does she edit your book or read your book . She does shes first editor and we have a joke about it. That is a little too obscene to put on the air but basically shell read something and say she doesnt theres a point she doesnt understand its now become a joke and but i would say basically thats because youre too blank to get it. And that immediately go back to change it the way she said. Then thats always been the case always right about that. Move on bawtdz theres another character we need to meet, and and when did you first meet him . He was the acting commander of the first regime of the people army of vietnam or the fought on the other sued of the battle he was the leader of the enemy troops that day. I went to vietnam homing that i would find someone like him. Not really thinking that if i would. But geez i hope i do. I had a list i had several lists one was american intelligence reports of the names of the people they thought were the commanders of that regime. Also, later documents compiled by the army looking for mie in vietnam because this battle engsded up with two mia heart prieflt and groat and fitzgerald were never found. Those investigations have vietnamese to talk to and on a couple of the documents and those misspelled, and question gave those i should also say that i went to vietnam with a wonderful interpreter and guide and just incredibly intelligent person who was essential to et new vietnamese l so fluent and he was so geed and he met with the Foreign Ministry we had a formal meeting i presented him with name of people who days later, they said we found him for you. He lives in ward 14 in Ho Chi Minh City and meet you tomorrow so we have a meeting with the leader of the other side. And diewpght me to talk about that . You met with him and then he agreed to come with you the next day . Well at the meeting it was a table in the Foreign Ministry about twice this size clark welch was there with me kyle horse was there and another madam who was handler for the vims was there is, and i was afd he wasnt remember the battle and i had a sensation this was too lucky something is wrong so i said three hours interviewing him about Everything Else in his lives. How where he grew up. How he became involved in the war the whole story of coming back down to the south after the accord sent him up to with the first what bail the first regime. All of that stuff for a couple of hours. Kyle was beautifully translating clark welch is politely sitting there and what is he doing and finally after all of that we took out the maps. And got up in a moment ill never forget with karl translating, he said we werent supposed to be there let me tell you how it happened and then he told the story and then at the end he agreed to go with us to the battle field the next day with clark and everybody else. Enches were going to see why did first of all why did you decide you wanted ton find battle field and why go there . I believe inside prefer book i write go there. Thats the first law that i have. Go to green bay to find out what its like in the winter when Vince Lombardi is coaching there. Go live in Hope Arkansas in hot springs when find out what it was like for bill clinton. I theres no, i didnt fight in the war in vietnam. I was the freshman in wisconsin then. Three years later i received induction knows but childhood asthma i had a kid i was not in the war never been to vietnam before. How could i write about it without going to the battlefield i had to go. And that was the First Mission i had even if i didnt find or clark didnt come with me i would get to that battlefield. Characters that people are going to see include clark welch convaido. Alan and rob actor in the new york and provided great concrete lead from other things and comfort for us. Vomin kyle horse i said him. Me, that was i guess and cspan, obviously. Show our viewers a little bit of what that day looked like and what some of the reactions to so many players were. A few turns at intersections that were not apparent on every map we made it to unmarked road closer to battlefield. There were no buildings. As if they sympathized with d. C. They couldnt live here because the americans would kill them. If they sympathize with the americans they couldnt live here so the b. C. Could kill them. We drove down that road until it became impassable and then get out and walked. We should go straight ahead here if we can. End of the road. We want to keep the creek bed to our right and go another two kilometers. Its where i spent a years. When you were out here last week did you go to this . Im sorry. Ing when you were out here before did you go any port further than this . Yes. When i was here before about two miles down in there where it is rough a stream bed about two miles down that stream bed where we landed in hospital on the 8 and then we walked up along the stream bed. I didnt come over here on this side of the stream my job was to be on other side of the stream and every day question go up into the woods and find logistic units didnt find him. He was still five kilometers ahead of us. But we have find his little logistic unit found rice, uniforms. And had small fights. But he was, he was five kilometers there coming this way. And i was here coming this way. None of us had a gps. I know [laughter] but we both have compasses. Our destination was the bamboo and house another local farmer. He supported vietnam during the wars and serve as a Company Commander in rear Service Group 83 and fought in the october subpoenath battle. He immediately recognized him everybody though they were only together for a few day he is 35 years earlier. They hug and cats down in a gated opening to the house clasping handle most of the team as they talked and he heard that he had ten children he chastise him you give birth like chickens he said and soon we were off walking across bamboo monkey bridge following a narrow path through the field with a herd of water buffalo moving south to the battle field and we were the lead company on the 17th we were the trail company. The 16 t you were moving this way right . On the 16th i was moving over that way. Yeah. We were walking very slow. And stop every hundred yards or so. Sending out people to the lefting and right to sees if there were folks near us. Of course, now we know that there were all over us. But we didnt see any like monkeys in the trees we should have seen him but we didnt see him. On the 16th when we were over there, my guys that were up in front heard the enemy. And we smelled them smelled fires. Didnt smell it didnt smell anything on this day. Ing but on the 16th we heard them and saw them first. On this day we just heard nothing. We were walking almost exactly along that woodline. Getting close another 200 meters maybe. As we moved closer to battlefield welch were in their own world again two proficient soldiers reliving and point and say a few things describing line of march of the american companies. And the positioning of three battalions. Where was qowld have would have been i the need to go another a hundred yards to go to point of battle was so Alfred Company from there to there. And qowld have put Delta Company there to there. Headquarters battalion there about 100, 150 yards. But it was it wasnt like this. This was nice pretty. And your father he didnt goes away. He didnt take a step back. Two battalion on the west wouldnt have had to attack. Therm just in the position that we walked right in front of and what the Alpha Company saw down to the right was one of those battalion i think it was his the battalion right here alfa company and that felt Delta Company and these guys came in from this side. And they fought from positions that been working on for three days and we were standing there in our tshirts. 100 meters further clark checked gps and his map and said we were nearing the growngsd of ground f the battle. Im ashamed that we were here. Not that sorry your machine says were here. Wii here and thats where i believe we were. When i said i thought we kale to the road and do about battalion i thought we fought there. Thats where we are. We are now right there. Had to move to our right so we turn and walked that direction. In 1967 this was the dense jungle now it was a government rubber plantation that grove of medium height trees planted in neat rows. And to find rape there and anthill, and i know he died trying to hide behind and anthill. He was right about that spot is beautifuls soft place in the middle of nowhere. It was really moving me to be there with consuelo. So the anthill is not important part of my life but it was very important to consuelo. Who are within 50 or 60 yards it could have been the same anthill. [background noises] [background noises] [background noises] will have some silence then ill read a poem. This for trends is entitle entitled through this pilgrimage may your battles grace the noble face of those who fought may your footsteps were blood was found turn background to wide forgiveness. And hell and free those left behind that peace find that passes understanding. Blessed are the peacemakers. So is the author . [inaudible] [background noises] she told me she had sent a prayer and i hadnt thought about it and the last line sticks with me blessed are the peacemakers, that is what i felt was happening there. Whatever had taken place almost 35 years ago, suddenly what a joint was not as important as those men being there. And for me to it feel that sense of peace. Guest the parts of history had nothing to do with my book it was for consuelo, it was for life. It was a show there is a connection between doing a book and living a life. And i did it for everybody ther there, i thought it was the right thing to do. So i guess what it did was solidify my feelings about the fact that loss is about. It will never be anything about that. Now, mr. Lamb and the colonel both understood that. I cant imagine the loss that they felt. People that they had lost. And when its all said and done, that is all thats left. The connection between writing a book and living a life expand on that. Guest well you know to be honest it became quite the epilogue. Because at the time i didnt have any conception of how the trip would play into the book, except to gather information. And at the end i made the trip a large part of the epilogue to the book including the poem and all of that. But all he meant by that is i dont try to separate who i am from the people i am dealing with from my book. I am a human being. I have feelings. I have ideas, i have flaws, i have my own conceptions on life. And im not just going to be the atomics on gathering information. Thats why it was so important for me in that first interview with clarke welch is because im going to tell the truth. Because i wanted to understand him as well. But i did not want to soccer him into it. I wanted the Human Connection but on a real level where i could be honest with him and had that Human Connection. Thats what i try to do with any subject im dealing with. Host do some journals have trouble with that . Guest i dont want to talk about other journalists i just want to talk about what i tried to do. Host jean ponder was mentioned again the author of the poem. She was terry allens wife in 1967. Guest she was back in el paso with three daughters under the age of six, some what depressed, turning against the war herself. She had her own Television Show in el paso and she was meeting people, their culture was changing, and she thought the war was awful by the end of that summer. And by october she was living with another man in el paso. People there knew it, terry allen came home to try to save his marriage, it was falling apart and they were probably on their way to divorce. So when he was killed, imagine her position where the husband she is divorcing is killed shes living with another guy who she immediately sends off and never wants to see again. The whole town hates her big she is the Scarlet Letter woman of el paso. She was seeing things in a pretty vivid way that she had never seen before because of her unusual position. It was no position anyone would want to be in. Eventually, when terry allens mother died, jean allen had already been married again by then and gone on with her life in its own way. She went back there went through the effects and found a lot of letters of terry allen and his mother. And she said that was the moment where everything just sort of washed over her and she realized terrys humanity two. And has really spent much of her life since then trying to come to grips with that moment and whats happened since. So its a complicated story, but i want to make sure our viewers know they are going to have a chance to talk to also during our segment. So want to tie the phone lines are open now if youd like to ask David Maraniss about the writing of his book the phone number is 202 6261980. In the meantime lets move to the United States cited this. Where were we again Antiwar Movement . Guest in the fall of 1967, the Antiwar Movement was changing. Since the First American troops landed in vietnam in the spring of 1965, and even before that there had been an Antiwar Movement. But it had become increasingl increasingly it up in growing. People had been in the movement for a couple of years for getting frustrated because nothing they were doing was having any effect. There was a slogan, one a more radical aspect of the Peace Movement move from protest resistance. In other words just carrying a sign wasnt going to do it anymore, want to stop this war we have to take action to do that. So it was complicated and a lot of things are bubbling but thats what was going on. Speedy places of the University Wisconsin at that time. Guest let me add one more thing. Congress is turning at that time too, that was when George Mcgovern and many other senators and congressmen were starting to really question the war. The movement was widening and getting more radicalized on another. Guest so what was going on at the university of wisconsin . Guest at the university of wisconsin it was 1967 he think thats way into the 60s. That fall there is a panty raid on the campus. He started the first chapter in madison was a group of people marching through the campus and they are on a panty raid, not on a protest. It was a very varied place. Most students were still no wearing the hippie aspect was just coming to madison, most of the were wearing slacks or skirts and dresses and but there was a very committed group of about 100 to 300 antiwar activists and then a large mass of kids who were feeling the effects of the war because there was a draft. Every young man in some way had to deal with the war because of the possibility theyd fight in it or decide not to fight in it. Host who was paul cycling. He was a history graduate student at that time he arrived in wisconsin in 1963 from the chicago area. He is a very articulate, politically savvy person who is already thinking about a possible career in local politics, very committed against the war, not a leader of the movement yet. There was still some older graduate students who were leaders of the movement. And people a little bit to the left of him who are more strident and urgent. But he was part of a group that was planning this protest against Dow Chemical Company. See when it was on october 18 had there been protest prior to that . Guest would come the previous springs and there had been several protests and arrests but no violence. That what you call real violence. And that fall, i could describe sitting on the union terrorists and anyone whos been to madison knows what it is its a beautiful terrorist leading up to lakeman dona from the Student Union you set off all day with a bunch of young antiwar activists looking through the Placement Services part of the daily cardinal newspaper to see whos coming to recruit and we sell the days thousand was coming they mark those there is a series of meetings and that early october about what they would do paid they finally settled on a plan to have peaceful protests on the 1h , picketing on the 18th try to stop by of having an obstructive sitting. Host in april of last year paul walked the root of that demonstration with you. Why did you want to . Guest april 2002 . Stuart yes 2002 why did you want to go through the route again . Guest ite already moved to madison for a whole summer to do a lot of interviews with people who were still there. Pulsate in madison and try to become a mayor for life he tried to run last year was conceded because they thought he was too conservative and thats part of the way life works. But in any case we had been several interviews. But again i went to db inside the Commerce Building with him and just feel it again. Thats why we decided to recreate the route so i can get a flavor for that again. Host lets watch it. On that morning yeah, there were just the friendly reminders no pointed objects, women remove your earrings, and you know, i really believe 99 of the people who were headed up the hill did not have a clue what was going to happen could not conceive of it that the most likely scenario was that we were going to be told to leave we would refuse, and they would start carrying us off. So classic civil rights, civil disobedience. Thats what most everybody was prepared for. There were certainly some people who were not ready to be arrested. But there were two identifiable roles for them. Which was one to be outside of the building and support and secondly, assume they would have the opportunity to remove themselves, get out of the building before anything happened. There were couple people who had tambourines they were from the mime troupe they were out front leading in gate giving a festival atmosphere to the walk up the hill. Guest i think i had this naive belief that everything was going to be alright, even with arrests. It seemed to me that people who had been arrested in the south and civil disobedience, hadnt had any ill effects, felt any ill effects. And i remember, i dont think it was at this point, but some point of that era, i know i made the observation that when our generation came of age, that we would use an arrest and an antiwar or civil rights demonstration was a credential for Public Office the way our fathers use the world war ii military service. I really wasnt that concerned. So if you got arrested . It would be an event anyway. Where were you even the front where were you . Guest no, no i was not in front i do know that. In fact, it seems to me that by that time i had already started my habit and is to be reinforced after what happened. My habit of trying to state the edges. Never wanting to get trapped in the middle, which is exactly what happened that day. Ive got another picture of you in your sheepskin coat standing there. Guest that was about the second day i think. [inaudible] this to be with the freshman comp classes are the kids were climbing out the windows. Guest so we went in here. Guest so people started sitting in this area. And we filled this entire core door. We fill this entire core door. After the third or fourth hour we got the word something was going to happen. We were all sitting down here. In all i know is everybody in the front gets up. They do one of two things. They either headed down the corridor to the right, or they come back this way and go out the stairs down to the bottom to the exterior. So that, at that point, like is it everybody in front of me just disappeared. Knew about right here . Guest in suddenly im in front and there are these five officers. And what they were doing, before they got to me there are groups of five officers working people over who, as they came upon them. So could you here . Guest you could hear it and see it. Steve echo what did it sound like . Guest whack. The sound of a stick occasionally theyd miss and hit the floor. Was there screaming . Guest there was a tremendous amount of yelling but most of it was actually outside. There is not a lot of noise in here. Somewhere around here is where they made contact with me. Guest at this point there is a group of us. Olive seen the picture, theres about five or six of us. What we are doing is we are going back. Slowly so that there is not a stampede. Your right here . Yeah. So you are in a sheepskin coat. Guest yeah but were going back very slowly so that there is no, i got it up like this i think. How were going back slowly so there isnt a stampede. And those who were in front of us that are rushing out or going along the side here. And we are just very slowly going backwards as the hallway empties out. But obviously not fast enough. You know. [laughter] and how did you get caught . Guest five of them just came right at me. It was the sort of like said someone were going to get that one next. They grabbed me and started beating me and then i ended up on the floor right here. I dont know how long it lasted. I really dont. But i was holding my own and i know theyre getting frustrated because the jacket was doing its job. The jacket was doing its job and protecting my head in my back pretty much. And then one of them, one of them hit me right on the base of the spine. And when he hit me on the basis of my my spine, attend. Somewhere probably right here. Guest is on my side like this and then one of them hit me on the base of the spine and all i knows that i just instinctively, my arms went out and my legs went out. When he hit the base of my spine my limbs just shot out. So like hitting your funnybone. Guest exactly that was a response to it. At that point everything is exposed. Then they started working on my legs and on my head and finally one of them said have you had enough . As though id been asked several times before. They just moved on, they picked me up, threw me forward, and im now on my own on my feet. And they are moving on to whoever is behind me, or you are. And theyre now just escorting me out. Its sort of like running a gauntlet because there are more officers and theyve got no real interest in the except getting me out of the building which was a surprise. Sotry to arrest you . Guest no because i made my way up here, there is this a broken glass and the officers are in a ring here around the front of the building. There is a mammoth crowd out here. And i come out and a nether officer just kind of throws made by the caller beyond the ring of officers into the crowd. [background noises] host was their reaction from the university to this . Guest there certainly was they went after the leaders of the demonstration. Some were put on trial by the city as well. The faculty was totally torn apart by this event as was the chancellor, the president of everyone else. You know, this is our jule of academia and wisconsin and all of the sudden there are police and students fighting it was just so it was a scary time for a lot of people, and an unfortunate time. C1 if youd like to call in and talk to David Maraniss the phone numbers 202 6261980 you can also email questions to him booktv at cspan. Org. We will go to phil first. Caller in your research and the events of wisconsin, did you use any underground newspapers . Guest yes, i did. And thank you for asking that because the state Historical Society of wisconsin has the best collection of underground newspapers in the country and they were very helpful to me. The first underground newspaper in madison was being published just that year end it was called connections. Host the Historical Society did you find a lot there . Guest it was invaluable to me. They have a collection on the 1960s as well. They had a lot of oral interviews, a lot of film, when we moved to madison for the summer of 2001, to do the research, i spent many, many days there doing archival research. C1 your second question philadelphia . Caller hello . Host we lost him, barkers verdict, west virginia. Caller i was when you guys brought the Vietnamese Army out the general with you . Guest yes. See there is one if you how he felt about it . Guest thats a good idea have thought about it in that sense before. In order to get permission to do what i wanted to do in vietnam my interpreter, guide and i had to go through the hoops of the bureaucracy of the peoples public of vietnam birds of a new is an official visit in that sense. When they talked him and told him i wanted to interview him, he knew that i was an author writing a book about october 1967. And then in the course of my interview with him it became more apparent to what i was interested in. He had no other deeper input in it. Stay went next call is west hartford, connecticut. Caller i have a question for the author, David Maraniss. Where was Robert Kennedy at this time and did it impact his decision to get into the political arena . And how does the protest compared to the kent state that happened four years later . Guest Robert Kennedy was a senator from new york state then. Jean mccarthy was just about to announce for president shortly. Under within five months lbj would announce he was not running for reelection. Robert kennedy was turning against the war in the epilogue of my book you will see this one incredible day where all of these political characters are in the cities of the book. Hubert humphreys and el paso were terry allen is from, Robert Kennedy and Richard Nixon both happen to be in milwaukee on that very day, kennedy was can pairing and drink and painting for nelson who is running for reelection wisconsin then but he was also on the verge of thinking about running for president himself. As to how this compared to kent state, madison was one of the first major protest. They were protest almost every semester from then on for four years in madison. And it was within a year of that the National Guard was called the campus. The National Guard was not there for this protest. And as we all know the National Guard was at kent state and that unfolded it a more tragic we were student was killed. At wisconsin was kind of the other book ended that its a horrible incident in august of 1970 where some people blew up a building that housed the army Math Research center. And a physicist a young man was working in the middle of the night was killed in that event. Which was one of the other tragedies of that. Host glenn from kentucky you are on with David Maraniss. Caller thank you for taking my call. I wanted to and talk about general terry allen he was actually greatest general we had in world war ii and was cheated out of his destiny by omar bradley. Do you know, could you comment on what he did after the war and when he passed away and has there ever been an autobiography or biography printed about general allen . Thank you very much. Guest terry allen senior did have some runins with omar bradley and eisenhower and world war ii. They thought he was too much of a soldiers general and they sort of send him back to the states and had him leave the First Division and he started the timberwolf and came back to europe and was part of the march through france and germany. After the war, he eventually got out of the military and went into the insurance business. He was suffering from early stages of dementia by the time his son reach vietnam or even before that when his son was in germany with the military in the earlier 60s. He was living in el paso then. And was a somewhat tragic figure. Consuelo tells me another story where the old man would mistake her for terry and take this little girl into his study which had war maps and everything all of the booklets he wrote about how to fight at night and called her sunday a couple of times, which was his loving nickname for his own son terry allen junior. Mike great friend rick atkinson, who is writing a trilogy about world war ii has terry allen senior as a major character in the first of his trilogies which is about the north African Campaign were terry allen is a central figure. Subject this is the book they marched into sunlight war and peace vietnam and america published just now in the bookstores. Next call is from jacksonville, florida. Caller yes i need to let terry know that i was one of the survivals of that battle and also i would like to find out just exactly how many men survived that particular battle that day . Guest well, 136 marched in and 61 eventually died. So a little more than half survived. Many of them were wounded. And the exact count on the other side, i was never able to obtain but was able to substantiate it was far fewer than the American Military. Stu when are you still there collar . Can you tell us who you are at which a reaction to day was . Caller yes my name is ed and i was with the second to 28. Guest which company . Delta . Caller yes we all went out on that particular day and the only thing i can or members the ambush itself. It was a horseshoe type ambush that just leveled all of us. I was one of the wounded that was evacuated out of there after the battle was over and i lost contact with literally everybody. Guest im sure if youre interested the other guys who survived would love to hear from you. They have reunions now, clarke welch comes to them, there is a whole group of veterans from that particular battle who have come together and grown very close. Mostly over the last few years. Every years i was doing this book, more of them would start to reach out. Theres even a man i didnt get to interview for the books that he came out of a hole, black hole after 37 years when he read this book. I wanted to talk about it. See when you serve as a horseshoe kind of ambush would you show from your maps or what how it happened . Guest im blind. This is where the night defensive position was where the field camp been the night before. They marched through into the jungle and got to a point several hundred yards in. The commander at the first regiment saw the trap was set. He had machine guns on this side he had men in trees, he had a whole another regiment that could come over to draw from this side, two regiments on this side. The trap was set. They got the Alpha Company was in the lead. The first platoon a team from the first platoon of alpha saw a few enemy soldiers running down a path they had seen nothing else that whole time. They didnt know what was being set up against them. So they is one of those great military ironies, the Alpha Company of the black alliance that they were setting up a little ambush waiting some more vietcong soldiers to come by. They gave the signal and all hell broke loose. Host st. Louis. Caller yes i was a Vietnam Combat veteran from december 1967 to december 68 and its ironic i was part with the Alpha Company 128, not that battle but many others. I was a platoon leader and then the september of 1960 attic took over Alpha Company as a Company Commander and i am enjoying the show very much and plan on reading your book and wanted to let you know. To act thank you i should point out for other viewers that the first of the 28th is the other battalion of the black lions. They are also black lions. But the two battalions didnt fight together during the vietnam era at all. They were even assigned other brigade. Host charlotte north carolina. Caller this is peter and 1967 i was a graduate student in wisconsin and happened upon the demonstration and its aftermath behind the hall there, and i am curious what similarities and differences you find in the American Military intervention in vietnam and her situation in iraq today starting with perhaps intelligence that was used to justify both interventions . Guest welcome i think there are many differences in many similarities. We start with the similarities and questions raised about my rock, in vietnam the premise for the American Intervention was an attack on the story of that was a question many people raised after words whether it was a false premise. And iraq you have the weapons of mass destruction whether they exist is still a question. For the soldiers in the two places you have the similarities of not knowing who is friend, who is enemy. Im vietnam that was certainly true everywhere. And iraq that can be as true as well. He of the question of most of the soldiers not knowing the language not knowing the culture and not knowing when in the world are going to get out of it. Theres one difference there in vietnam they did not they survive dear they were out. That individual but doesnt turn iraq with they were told they will be staying longer. But how the United States will resolve it situation in vietnam or iraq is also similarity in question. How the huge differences are that of vietnam, and that area you had communist china on the soviet union is faster than how the United States dealt with the situation. The United States could not go obama it into oblivion or attack North Vietnam without bringing those two forces into play and what could have been a world war. So theres huge differences as well. But also there are similarities. Host from your hometown, madison, wisconsin your next. Caller yes had a question that you mentioned earlier about the police training. At the student as well as worked on Research Projects in the building across the street. I witnessed from that distance what was going on there and it couldnt figure out most of the time. My greatest impression that all the sudden teargas started going over our heads. I kind of wonder from the inside and the outside what precipitated or what peoples opinions are what happened . From my perspective it seems a little bit like a police riot. Guest that was a perspective of a lot of people. Even some of the administrators, lower level administrators who analyze the situation after words out of a certain point the police lost their heads. The police in madison had never used teargas before. That was the first time pray they didnt even know what the effects were. They drop teargas i would blow right back in the face of the Police Officer who dropped it. Or cross the street to professors who are watching the Police Officials is a chief of university of police there is a city police there both on hand. They had differences of opinion, no one is really in charge at that point it was a mess. Place will watching sort of acting spontaneously individually and in some cases foolishly. Statement we showed a picture of ralph hansen. How big of a character was in your book . Guest is actually sympathetic character, ralph townsend. The student protesters almost a person like him i was right at the time of the movie ralphie came out and they would sing whats it all about ralphie he had a sense of humor where the great things are porting this book was at his widow, hes dead, had seven boxes of materials and garage in their house and let me look through them i got to understand but a deeper level through that was sort of a secret life going back to school in setting sociology at the time. He was a painter who left the paint portraits and he wouldnt to study how students reacted. He certainly didnt want the city cops and police going in there they were the ones who did most of the confrontation and dealing with the confrontation of the students. So gifts and video of that commerce hall looks like today its not in the same name anymore. Guest its ingram hall now. And its bascom hall and on top of baskin hall is an american flag. What happened . Guest thats another part of the story. A young transfer student from conservative Calvin College in michigan whose uncle was an executive at the Dow Chemical Company, jonathan was against the war at that point. He sort of arrived in madison with most feeling all of that time and place in terms of the radical movement. He was inside of the building saw what happened came outside looked at the flag above bascom and thought why is that flag flying over this . I got on his bicycle, rode home to his house got clippers readback climbed up bascom hall to the top and cut the lanyard. A photographer for the Wisconsin State Journal happened to be up on another part of bascom hall, saab is taking place and got that picture which ran in the paper on manhunt began to find jonathan. Turns out he had a twin brother, philip, the looked exactly like except one had a beard starting to grow and the other didnt. So the chase for him was both very serious in terms of the American Legion offering rewards to find him, and somewhat comic in the way the police tried to figure out which brother really did this. Host detroit . Caller hello david. How are you . I was a weapons platoon leader that day. Guest yes. Caller and one of the things you mentioned in your book was the order to not fire the mortars. I read that and i want if you care to elaborate . There are seven people died trying to charge a machine gun and i could have taken it out and they wouldnt let me. I mean, ive written emails, i dont think i want to repeat it here. I am extremely bitter about that. Guest yes. Was in that battle, he was back at the defensive position. Delta company had its own mortar platoon which would stay back and clarke welch, the commander of delta, like to use mortar fire. Both to mark where they were going and if the battle started to use it. He was calling in mortar protection and he was overruled by the brass who said they werent going to allow mortar fire in this battle because of the jungle and some incident that it happened i think involving other battalions elsewhere where there was friendly fire casualties because of mortar fire. Clarke welch and his art tillery observer who was killed in the battle, was a heroic figure and won a medal of honor for what he did in the battle. They were pros, they knew had to do this but they werent allowed to so. Did this because of the fact that they felt they could help save lives and work not allowed to. School in irvington, kentucky. Are you there . Let me try more time irvington, kentucky. Caller sim. Host go ahead. Caller i was with the second battalion 20th infantry and 66 and 67. You said youve done some research id like to know if. [inaudible] got wounded there. If this is the same alan that was in charge of the third Platoon Bravo Company because i was with him on the same battle in billings. Guest terry allen junior had been with the battalion before he was the s3 the Operations Officer for the first few months when he got to vietnam. I dont think he would have been a platoon leader in bravo company. But he would have been with the battalion in july and august and earlier. Where does the title of the book come from . Guest while they marched into sunlight is taken from a great poem was a vietnam vet from ohio has written a lot of really powerful poetry about vietnam. He wrote a couple of books who had the poem in one was called the son of napalm which is why first got interested in him and then archaeology is the other. Its about a unit in the military in vietnam marching into sunlight towards an ambush. Helen begins into sunlight they marched was going to be the title of the book people kept tripping over it beautiful in the poem hard to say in a title. I apologize to the great poet we invert it and made it different. You say in your preface you mean for both sides of the story. I mean they are moving into various ambush weathers the students or the soldiers or the administration of lyndon johnson. Host heres the poem. Into sunlight they dodge into dog day they marched without knowing how the aired be sucked from their lungs how the world would collapse how it would twist itself and bend to the cruel angles. Into the black understanding they marched until the angels came calling their nays. Until they rose one by one from the blood. The light blasted down on them, they went to the razor classroom setting time to speak. The words would not let themselves be spoken. Some of them died. Some of them were not allowed to. Host who is the last picture we saw . Guest that was tom hendrick, doc hendry who is now a great friend of mine he was a medic in that battle and survived it. He was with Alpha Company the First Company moving into the battle. As soon as he heard the gunfire started, he ran toward the front and tried to save as many people as he could. And came back into the battlefield two or three or four times over the next several hours helping out. At one point he was part of a small group that was going back into the battle to bring out wounded with donald hollander a major from the brigade. He was with donald when he was killed. Two what happened to him that night . You talk a lot about the book. Guest after the battle late at night, back at the night defensive position in the field camp, couldnt sleep of course and he imagined anybody going with those men went through that day. There was blood all over his uniformity felt he had failed. The last lines of that poem, some died and some are not allowed to is how tom felt about himself in the middle of that night. He was in a bunker and took out a gun and thought of you know that he shouldnt live if those others guys, that thought passed. But the sense of guilt and remorse, i mean incomprehensible to me and anyone else who hasnt gone through it. But he tried to describe it to me. Host atlanta . Caller yes, i have two questions if thats okay. The first is where any of the policeman in wisconsin commented they have brothers that were in the war at the time . And secondly, there been Many American writers coming over to vietnam to Research Battle sites. How did the vietnamese feel about these people coming over to write about the american war and just come over to visit this whole battle thing . Guest the first question about the police, many of the Police Officers themselves were veterans of world war ii. The police chief was a marine and world war ii. Some of the younger officers were veterans of korea. I dont think any veterans from vietnam came back yet to the force and 67. As to whether some have brothers in vietnam i dont know that to be honest with you. None of the officers i interviewed had brothers. I didnt interview them all but interviewed a lot. The second question on how did the vietnamese feel about americans coming back there particularly authors my general feeling about the vietnamese was they were totally welcoming to this aspect of it. And to all american tourists. Theyre certainly a different bureaucracies in vietnam that can make things difficult. But none of that was the case with this mission. We got what we wanted and sometimes more. And felt no hostility whatsoever that the whole of the surrogate go into about the relationship. Host kansas city . Caller i have a question. Or about same age i was in college 1967 through 1969 so solve Antiwar Movement. I was drafted in august of 1969 it went to school for boys. Im so conflicted like 70 people my age in our mid 50s because when i see these people, liberal journals talk about how brave they were in opposing the war and then i see friends nays on that wall, it just tears me up. Can you comment on that . Thank you. Guest yes, and thank you for raising that issue again. I think that everybody in different ways are conflicted about vietnam. I said early in the show, there is no equivalent weight between someone protesting the war and someone who face a life or death situation in the war. That does not mean the war was right or that the protesters being against the war were wrong. But the events themselves are so diametrically different than what happened. I think for that reason there are millions of american men of that age group that did not fight. Most of them didnt by a vast majority. They had conflicted feelings that its going to be how it is from now until we are all gone. This book is in a sense an effort to say you can honor soldiers only can do both at the same time its part of the American Fabric is hard as that is to hold in this modern American Culture that immediately turn things into blackandwhite stereotyped everything. Thats what life is about. On february 7 at 7 oh 5 00 p. M. You wrote the last words of this book and on that day you invited our book tv cameras in to take a look at where you write and how youre right we are going to take a look at that next. Did you do this complete book in this room . Yes, i did. From beginning to end. This book shows once had books on them and now they are in entirely archival documents. How did you organize them . Good question i have no idea. As general advice subject matter they are not organized alphabetically or anything like that. They are a total mess because im done with the book. Theyve all been used. These documents are jewels i got the center for military history. These are transcripts of interviews with the men who were in the battle that i am writing about. The interviews were conducted by a military historian within a week of the battle. Until i collected 25 of these and they were just incredibly helpful as i peace together the chapters that were about the battle. I think some of these are about people. Yes people and groups. Sure jim shelton, was a great help to me on the book, a general who is been a major in an Operations Officer who is not in the battle but became obsessed by it. Pinky dirt room was a radio artillery liaison who was killed and won a medal of honor for his actions. Joe costello was a private at a real hero in the book. He turned around midway through the battle back and saved people. These are all from the battles. I have them separated by rose at least some are all about the university of wisconsin and antiwar in some are about vietnam. So inherent by this time our viewers will have met this man. Clarke welch. This is actually a small little folder because he is so much of the book i have them all over the place. But this has the transcript of two of my very long interviews with him. That i did before he went to vietnam. The transcripts from vietnam are other places. He was a lieutenant, Company Commander, incredible guy. And he survived the battle. Why the printed word . Why dont you keep this all in your computer . Because i dont know how to do that i dont want to do that i need the feel and the touch of prints. I need people to keep everything in their computers and more power to them, this is the way my mind works the way i have to do it. Connected you have any bad experiences of your computer and the writing of this book . [laughter] of course in the lombardi book i lost part of it someone saved it. This time there was one moment when i was transferring several chapters and just lost them they disappeared into thin air. I thought. But then i looked under the Washington Post and the great Computer People there figured out how to save some of them. So i pieced everything together and back again it was about three days of complete trauma. I keep telling myself i have a million backups. And then i dont do it. Now im through it and i have enough versions of the book of enough places im not going to lose it. Turn around and lets take a look at the cards. What do you use cards for . So i take many of the interviews that i have done and i break them down by subject matter. And theyre all a mess right now. At one point they were organized totally by either chronology of the book or subject matter, for instance like the funeral of terry allen where the characters in the book. Five interviews with a lot of people about an incident, i go through those and find everything that has to do with that one episode and put them on cards so when im writing that section rather than going through a million different interviews i flip the cards and refreshes my memory. just about every little reminder i need what was going on because it was just a few hours. It gets incredibly detailed. Fact chronology includes was going on in wisconsin and vietnam . Its both. It is important because is a 12 to 13 hour time difference between vietnam and washington. It have to keep that mathematically whats going on where. Conveniently for me, the one group is sleeping, the other group is acting. Then there are a few times in the book with the same moment to very powerful things are happening. At one time, it is 1 40 a. M. And vietnam, the battle is over, one of my characters whose emetic, had done heroic work, so many comments. He was sitting in a bunker, shaking, feeling terrible you must write about that and hes totally depleted and depressed. Its a very powerful moment, its 1 40 p. M. In washington d. C. Lbj is walking into his meeting and hes talking about the battle he got a report on in the anti war movement. You get to where they come together and it looks the book cohere. Do you remember when you discovered all but happening at the same time . I knew it was but it wasnt until later which was a little over halfway through the book. It washed over me. The gamble id taken which was putting together these two diverse worlds, theyre all about the same thing. Vietnam, white house and antiwar. In my mind, when i got to that moment, i saw how they did for me, it was there. I notice if we go way back over here to the corner, there some books. I thought 100 books. The importance of books that you keep in the room . Williams was a professor at wisconsin in 1967 and earlier, major influence, it left at that time. I dont agree with her mouth but i found it interesting to read. I try to portray in the book is about that time that was important time. Someone whos not well known, which anybody who writes about you notes. This is one of the bibles of vietnam writing, probably the most coherent flow of history of the vietnam war in one volume you can get. The real bibles for reporters or this one, u. S. Government and vietnam war, this is just from july 65 to january 68. Its an incredible compendia of government documents. Some which were secretive, some of which the Public Record but all of them invaluable from about the meetings in the administration, during thought. And you cant write a book about it without having a copy and one other like that that just came out this year, ive been waiting for since my book began, its called formation 1969. Its an incredible compilation of cia memos, Security Council meetings, johnson conversations, a lot of this material i got at the library when i went down there to do research but theres some things that i didnt even find their. This is published by the u. S. Government. Just getting down to 1960s are now . Theres a lot of controversy over some of the documents that took years and years to release so all of the other volumes, i believe on vietnam, have been released before 67. I just got this i think three or four months ago. Theres the best and the brightest which, ive read it twice check out the book and hold up so wonderfully. Topnotch books about the Antiwar Movement, its an excellent account of those years in the details of it. I notice she has this. Yes, when i was a young man. There are a lot of books that dont relate directly to my book but theres always something in any book about vietnam that was about that. In this book, there no event comparable to the controversy involving what happened with that unit in vietnam and the possible civilians but there were two or three incidences in my book that raised questions about whos who. And how you make moral decisions and military decisions in the spur of the moment. He talked a lot about the importance of letters. I just happened to notice. These are all letters to his wife, lacey. Like anything, theres a little bit of disorganization because ive used them all. I used one butter here in my epilogue over the last letter, he wrote them from may 67 to october after the battle when he was in the hospital. Why were his letters important in the research for this book . They convey what someone is thinking at the time. Not 35 years later. Aside from his letters, particularly poignant because such a proud soldier and hes building his own company and the letters are about how he can build the best company in vietnam and he describes in great detail with his wife, shares with her all the inner thoughts about why he was there and what hes going and what hes trying to instill in his men. Ill know where to place it, theres an important part of my book with a whole group of soldiers live in vietnam as part of, they take a ship over and clark fixed them up and youre all confused into his company. He describes it in his letter, got letters from many of the m men, kept diaries on the ship so i get it from all these different perspectives. Get his letters, letters of the company, a completely different perspective on the military and life. What are you going to do with all the fat including your recordings of these interviews . Im still trying to figure out what to do with this stuff. I have a storage facility, i think someday they will go somewhere at the university of wisconsin, id be delighted to give it to the Historical Society that. Several people mentioned in your book that people know very well now. Cheney . They were graduates at wisconsin. They were characters in the pipe book. Cheney, i did political science, he was a serious student, married with a child. He didnt want anything to do with the work. He certainly didnt want to fight in it. He just wanted it to go away. He represent a large segment of the population and great irony is it was easier for him to ignore the war when it was going on in the rest of his career. Susan mcgovern was married to jim who was a journalist and graduate student they were both in the demonstration and susan witnessed the whole thing. One of the things we learned is that your editors are your parents. Yes, my parents. My dad is a lifelong newspaper man. My mom was a book editor. As i say one of the great thrills for me to send it to them listen on the phone and as they argue over grammar as im listening. Your mother is looking at a father telling you about something whether its something that should be called a village or town and your mother has a dictionary in her lap, giving you definitions. I cant say how lucky i am to have them. The final, at the end of the epilogue, it takes us to the area you just mentioned in the interview, where is that again . Wise an important . South and east of saigon and it is where many of the troops who died in the battle. The battle, where the book starts and where it ends. Ticket on a little video to tour, you hear the end show you what it looks like. On fabric seven, last day in vietnam from who wrote down the saigon river. The south side china sea. It was lined with restaurants and resort hotels if you didnt look at the beginning vietnamese lettering, or along the texas coast. We stopped in the parking lot, he walked with me toward the beach and pointed to the spot where they stood with the makeshift company flag, waiting. They thought they were, they didnt know if they were going to come together. Down the beach and asking people, or my people . Anybody i saw that look like [inaudible] i was running back and forth, there were groups of people. No, no. Nobody was part of it. The First Division. It may have been old First Division. I do not know. Finally, a man with a jeep and a clipboard on the sand and none of this was here. Finally someone said here is a chart and it shows section 28, see packet. Then its right over there. I went over there and there was a guy standing there, i was able to confirm this is see packet. He said see packet, thats what it is. This group of men became the second part. What i saw was a beautiful formation, it was beautiful. Remember there being, well, i guess there would have been a beach. We could see the water but nobody was in the water. It didnt look like anybody was there, but it was beautiful, they were standing in formation. They didnt have guns, that surprised me. They were beautiful. The big boulders behind them. All the other stuff taken away. The fusion to the right. You see them and what you say . Thats when i said, after confirming, i dont member talking to the soldiers, remember talking to the navy guy and once he told me, i know they came to attention. There were standing there and it was beautiful. They were beautiful. Thats when i walked up to him and said i am lieutenant commander, who are you . Or Something Like that. We were relieved to find them and if it was captain george, it was wonderful, it was beautiful. Thats when i said i am captain george, chief of see packet. This was above our head, i sat on the bench at the edge of the mountain, statue rising behind me. Looked down to the work of white sand and bluegreen see below. Thought about the u. S. And once long ago, and the young soldie soldiers. They climbed down particular bladders landing made their way are sure and marched into sunlight. [background noises] you are watching tv on cspan2 and we are showing some programs with awardwinning author, david. The Previous Program you just saw was his Research Trips to vietnam and madison, wisconsin while he worked on his book, they marched into sunlight. David appeared on book tv over 30 times, he is the author of a dozen books and in 2010, he offered book to be another opportunity to travel with him. This time to kenya why health did research for his biography on barack obama. The program we are about to show you aired in 2012. Over the past three years, hes been researching his