Have to learn this and then you have to learn this to get a good job that must be true because you had to do this so i better perform but yet not until i started to read more why education pays and now i understand the history ive been learning that since kindergarte kindergarten. A big part of your book versus on signaling so most of the audience may not know what that is so what is signaling in education and how do they interact . Basically the normal one that they tell you as you go to school they put skills and human as a result when you graduate you are a skilled person and employers want to give you a good job and pay you a good salary for you are transformed from the education turn from an unskilled student into a skilled worker but now its different than that because really whats going on you were jumping through hoops they convince employers you are good then they certify you to put stickers on your forehead to say this is a prime grade a worker and then an analogy there is to raise to raise the value of the diamond one is the expert gem cutter to make it perfect the other who says this is the perfect diamond there are two different ways to make it more valuable the first is Human Capital the second looking at identifying and putting your seal of approval. Also signaling you get a degree from harvard versus the secondtier state college. Absolutely so so many things go into the coursework and in the major what school you went to and then of course there is many things you signal other than just getting your education like not getting tattoos on her face is a good start. Host what part of signaling how much of an educations value is embedded in signaling . Is one of the main questions i try to address in the book the final answer is 80 percent of the payoff comes from signaling and then i consider other versions but theres a lot of different kinds of evidence that i consider one is just looking at the curriculum to see how they stand on subjects like literacy and numeracy and then you say how often do people even use those on a job and how many jobs . Like history are in music . That these are requirements and if you say i refuse then you are not allowed to advance unless you complete these requirements so it is true if i refuse to do spanish because i dont see the value then i really could not have gone to college at uc berkeley i could not be here today if i had said i would not do the subjects. But 80 percent is signaling your putting that at a much higher number than some other economist that study the college of labor market which is more between 30 and 50 . How do people specialize in this . One said 20 and the number that is high for specialist in the field. Why do you have it that high . Without going to complex math. Generally those that have zero interest in curriculum they dont Pay Attention to what people study so much of what they want to do is only look at the income part you cannot understand that until you open the black box to see what is in the curriculum what subjects people study and then talking to economist we say look at the curriculum it seems to be relevant to the job people have they say people learn how to learn are Critical Thinking so in the book i read a lot of psychology but psychologist to work on the subject are very pessimistic and come away shellshocked that if we do a good job and students learn what they are taught and that is such a moonshot to do that its hard to see that happening. So you put that level at 80 percent because you look at the other aspects of learning from what supposed to be happening and there are studies of education and say thats not happening you are estimating that at a higher level. There are many subjects we spend on history is a classic case how many years you have to study history and if you talk to adults asking very basic questions so maybe half of them of those very easy questions correctly so also to look at sociologist hammond has the American Labor market changed in terms of what they do or the education a new one they need . Numbers are going back until at least 1940 and the result is that is not actually the more demanding job there is some of that but now you need three more years of education to do the same job that existed with three more years to be a waiter or cashier or bartender and then to say maybe its more complicated than it used to be it seems like its less complicated you dont know one have to know arithmetic and those who do the work generally dont think there has been an overall change in the amount of training that you need to do. So that makes sense because as educational levels have risen the amount makes you worthy of a job goes up almost in lockstep. Host and graduates working as waiters will get into that in a bit that the common story is we need more of this because we are headed into a Service Economy makes for a more complex labor market and thats where you get the extra training on top of it. Looking at what people do on the job they dont find anything like that also a bunch of jobs dealing with people more than ever in think of those working at a computer barely talking to anyone one of the main things we are not teaching but this is compared to what . In the alternative to stay home alone and most human beings which is having a job you can pick that up and there is a lot of similarities which is why you look at schools preparing people for work but also important differences. So now every child is a beautiful and unique snowflake and to be very sparing of need negative feedback. People tell you youre not measuring up is what you need to do so i say in terms of preparing for adult life because you are learning some dysfunctional things as well as functional things. If you see 80 percent of the value of the educational degree is signaling and the learning is minimal, so you are coming to high school with this knowledge you already have. Isnt that the implication . So you show up on the job and then you finally learn. Its to make people jump through hoops for over a decade and then finally has nothing to do with your major and then you can do something that is useful i would be more inclined that they dont retain very much which is the important distinction so looking at studies and that motivation is the Human Capital story that they them pay for your skills it makes sense for the skills that you have now so you have this idea then it may well be because people forget things so quickly talk about all the classes we dont remember much of anything. So you say the learning might happen but we dont retain and its not relevant . Exactly. And there is the problem even if they did learned is generally not relevant to the jobs in the future and then another problem is people applying what they know this is what psychologists study. You teach them abstract knowledge which would be useful now will they use what we talk about . So given the small pythagorean theorem how the people say it is a triangle take out the ruler and measure it they forget about the pythagorean theorem. Im not trying to harp on the signaling issue but i think people would say you say most of the value of the education is signaling intelligence, work ethics and conformity. And the learning is minimal than what you say people come to college with the tools already or the ability already then they go through this fouryear rabbit maze and then they get out and how their stamp and say reward me for what i already have smacked 20 percent is not minimal and probably the most common misunderstanding that education is all signaling 20 percent is still a big thing and of course there is natural maturation and school it doesnt mean you couldnt do your current job at 15 so there is of course time is passing but yes, yes, the job you get after graduation you could of been trained to have done that reasonably well they would not have been willing to train you or interview you because you have to do signaling to convince them that you are worthy not to have them throw away your application even before that stage. And with the nonrelevant major that shortterm. [laughter] i just want to talk about that signal in entering the marketplace. Those themselves that ask for this signal so even if it is a signal, then whats the problem . If everyone has 1 degree last week and send a signal just as effectively. There is a classic analogy you are all sitting down you personally want to see what can you do . Of course stand up if we all stood up we can see better. Wrong. Now you block each other this is what education is about if one gets better employers and more interested you hire you and give you a good job if everybody does it the result is a block each other than this credential inflation we need more education to get a job so why do i need college to be a waiter . It doesnt make sense. There is a lot of people with degrees that are qualified waiters as well so why not just go in call the people who dont have it with these extra credentials. If educations were over than they cannot afford to be so snobby. In the past to say we only hire waiters with College Degrees then youre paying a massive amount of a regular college type job to be a waiter but nowadays its totally feasible for restaurant to be that picky because there are so many applicants. Host but in this case i spent the past year looking at the paths of college and what they want other students. Prominent rental car company head of hr they will say we absolutely need people with bachelors degrees. To rent cars . Or sell cars or to move up to management. So what drives that signal . Clearly businesses are asking for this at some level but what drives this up . Is that us wanting to stand on the box at the theater or the business to say what you have is an adequate we need to filter the applicants we want to show your ability. There is about 1 trillion of government funding on all levels at the status quo keeping that in mind to have a very accessible educational system i say there is a dark side to accessibility that to be accessible to everyone that means Everyone Needs to spend a lot of years in school to end up in the same place as a lowerlevel but always looking at the talented kid who gets a leg up not all that all the other kids who just dont like school and have more opportunities taken away because now employers say there so many people with College Degree why should we give a chance who hasnt jump to the same hoops . Thats part of it also a general socials shift high stigma not being well educated parents and teachers peers all working together the real interaction is the funding of course thats the easiest thing to do something about that you talk about that in the book and that people are not so interested have the kids start working at an early age theres something to that at the same time others could appreciate of their kids would become independent adults before the age of 30. Talking to College Administrator a lot of kids are not working during High School People dont want to seem to want to hire High Schoolers but they are working so hard on the resume for college they are not getting a job at the pizza place like they did when i was a kid. Absolutely one of the side topics look at the evidence and its value and the people saying that students make a mistake from their own point of view because they pick up some useful job skills and thats just quite a bit of work those who had that education make more money with a higher employment rate some say this would have happened anyway. And then what i say is aside from those that are amplified for all the kids that hate regular school its easy for me to get people like this exist but those are in the entire Academic Experience like Vocational Education is good for people without personality it gives them an alternative that they dont hate the from the taxpayers point of view it makes more sense to encourage people to use those skills and jump through hoops because people need more people to do what is accomplished or put more stickers on their head . As far as Vocational Education goes there was a study recently that said students who took cpu courses vocational courses were much more likely to graduate from high school and with higher grades and to matriculate so it is that relevancy of what they are learning. Going back 40 or 50 years there was a dark side in the sense that it was a tracking system kids from poor backgrounds are nonwhite were more likely to be trapped into vocational than carl then college prep if you advocate for more opportunities or more effort to push kids into practical Vocational Learning is that a dark side . Of course first base it upon what the kid likes and what they are good at it makes perfect sense to come up with a fairminded way to do that im a big fan of objective testing versus a teacher say i declare you have to do Vocational Education instead. That is problematic. Its also under so much scrutiny in their so much highquality work just to predict what it is. If you talk to people who do this to me its very impressive and how well they do but having someone using their own discretion is perfect so the angle between the available options and also to point out people dont like to think of the dark side of the system but the Current System has the enormous darkside there is a genuine mentality it is actually inculcated in students the only thing that is dealing and kids you did very poorly in high school to go to college and predictably fail its important because so much of the pay off in college comes from graduation so someone sending to college with a 5 percent chance of graduating basically says go put your money into lottery tickets but there is a darkside not to buy it because somebody might win but thats a darkside. Is there a problem associated with the businesses using College Degrees to filter applicants by class or race . Is that possible . Yes. My general view employers want to make money if you are using a method that was inferior to another with that desired class of race then thats pretty unlikely, especially today. And then they cant figure it out and as a result you get this but i dont think they are deliberately doing it they are there to make money. Of course you can make a lot more money by replacing college workers. This is not a hard Business Strategy while than is just off her wages and then to see who those are the best applicants it seems like it should be a very obvious business model. Lets talk about thes courses and you say in your book there are tens of thousands of people who study history only a few thousand positions but first of all you can study history and it can still be relevant to your job even if you are not a historian. My uncle is a dean of business at a college and teaching that is part of the business course. Study what generals did to run their army. And furthermore when people Enter College they assume that is right so they want to study something that is interesting to them. It is something is wrong with subsidizing for things to be used in the future and so what about them to go use these in those nonhistorical jobs aforesaid is highly unlikely. Sometimes in high school they would say we have to see how relevant this is but its hard to see that coming up when a decent amount of history its easy to come up with that historical analogy so what episodes do you bring up . So in terms of how much extra knowledge or guidance like im a College Student i would be inclined and the good news even then it will be relevant so they will still treat you better than if you didnt go at all but then the main questions that makes sense for taxpayers to encourage the rat race where people spend many years of their life to be at a job they could have done very well as an apprenticeship. If people really enjoyed history if that were true than that seems to be if you want to go to taxpayer somebody has a history what you pay for four years so they can pursue their hobby but at the same time so then how can i say that . The key piece is just very low cost for attendance in college when she have your admission average attendance is 50 percen 50 percent. Very few people unofficially ever take a class. Certainly on campus its easy that people dont have any interest in taking a spare class for the fun of it. If you are not a student there at all in general is no problem to go to college to start attending colleges or classes and they probably dont even realize you are officially enrolled. Most are attached at the once and Career Opportunity someone is curious. And then our use of the internet there are educational videos up on youtube but it should be so well compared to other things so there is a little bit of enjoyment its greatly overstated for those who want to make the case. Professors and Public Policy will say theres something for people to pick it so that they are introduced to it are introduced to it\. A introduced to it\. Introduced put in especially in realizing many people would have done it on their own and i know plenty of people despite because the class that gave them bad memories was poorly taught. I just cant bear the thought of it. You have people studying drama at the skills you learn our improvisation in a moment, learning to react to other peoples emotions are learning to stand in front of a crowd. All of these could be useful at some point if applied well. The there are other ways you can use this in life. It is totally possible. If they found out they were likely to have studied drama with that shocwould shock you . It wouldnt shock me. Theres a lot of psychologists that work on this and the main result is even though some skills seem like they ought to generalize it ought to give you could make you better at giving a presentation during a business meeting at when you think two things should be tied together they generally are not and if you are lucky you could be doing a theatrical performance under the condition which they are trained of course a lot of times even that doesnt happen. The idea that because we could imagine the use that would cause noticeable improvement this is the kind of book where if i did the research myself it wouldved have taken 500 years to write the book so each time i came to a topic i said lets find all the people and find out what do they say about it. I want to Read Everything i can and talk to people in the field. When i have