The women with silver wings. So thank you for joining us today. Think is much for having me. She is a great stream of funds she will put up for us. With see if i can figure this out for us. There we go. Katherine this is just going to roll. Nothing specific. Host enjoy the photos as we discussed. This is a wonderfully book, it just came out on april 21st. Its a great read. Just do a quick introduction, history of a Texas Woman University which coincidentally, maybe not incidentally is home of these archives. This is both very special for her and churches going to talk about her journey to getting the book to publication. [silence]. [silence]. Katherine a can getting friends to come with and somebody pointed out the fact that in the shade of the hanger over there, and they were saying hello. And he introduced me to carol. As the champion of the 1951 battle championship. And then i found out that she also fought in world war ii. Never heard of any of them. I thought well, ive never heard of them, whom else has not rated test. We decided that was wrong. These were incredible women. They did a lot of great flying during world war ii. So set on a mission thats taken 27 years to get here. I have been studying them and telling the story of sense. Allison that is fantastic. There has been very little good material out there. So your book is a welcomed addition to the resources on this. Theyve clearly had an impact on your career he spent 27 years now working on this. And because the fashion influence your career in other ways. Katherine yes. I think other things, had the great advantage of spending a lot of time with them. A lot of the resources were lost after the war. So had a chance to do oral histories with them which chase me down follow the path of training. Went to graduate school and to learn to do this the right way. At the university of tennessee. I learned how to do oral history really learned how to do those types of things. The more learned about these women, i wanted everybody to know about them. And wanted good academic history work. Which is why went to graduate school way of work so hard to get the resources right. But also wanted the public about them. I wanted my friends to know about them. I wanted everybody know about and presumably due to change my trajectory towards public history. So working with them. can documentary films and that type of thing. Not just academic conferences. So that the people on the world conoco these women were. So really knowing these women in the story has helped me in trying to find the academics history and public history and try to find a layer between two of them. Allison one of the things that i know, is the personal stories and fit them together with the Historical Records pretty so kind of in there, was there ever a story that you got they had to collaborate and became very difficult, was there anyone who stands at the maybe even begin a fun challenge for you. Katherine think it is a great question. And they can for kind words about the balance there. I think the so many things that i really tried to get that accuracy rain we do oral histories, and is a challenge because people are remembering something did just a few years ago. One story in particular the thinkers voted in the mainstream that has been sensationalized, but it really worked hard to prove whether it was right or wrong, was that moment he died and. She was one of the first of the three women who died during war. And i started hearing stories in the 1990s rising my research about someone was shut down. It is so awful. They covered it up. Its just not accurate. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out who was telling the stories. When they were coming from pride never all people who was to about this in prison who was so i started talking about talking to these people who were actually there. And i talked to another one who is in there that day. And so i got there stories about the training mission. They were all there. There are no guns. The plane had problems. And so the part where you find parts that it was a conspiracy theory, you gotta go beyond that. In a talk people who actually there presents one of the stories is touted the lots. Document lots. Those able to do a lot of Good Research and i always try to find rule three. Find three good sources to prove that something was accurate. And maybe a new source will come improvement wrong. They really tried hard to that accuracy. Facility rumors tied to these women the stories. Allison and it think one of us but maybe not roma but many misunderstood by a lot of people is the back story. The air forces and even that women who let it, use it as an experiment although i understand that some not want to call themselves that. But what were those early years like pretend they get to the point of knowing of them today. Katherine existed for two years. From september of 42 to decembe. Those are the dates they have. The whole program started with the womens auxiliary nancy in september of 42. Starting working and bring experienced women pilots in. And then at the time, the Army Air Forces realized the 20 women was not enough to do this. They wanted to do more. And they started to crack it would leadin to the womens Training Detachment. It is come out in the last couple of years that they started and 43. And it was separate. And they absolutely were nuts. The Training Detachment women were training and got little bit more experience than they would go right into the lab. So these first 33 classes a woman who did the training of graduated and joined the previous women they were flying and were the great green uniform. In brookline. The name of the group of this Collaborative Group was jacky and nancy they were together. To make this contact work. The name changes in the summer of 1943, to the Women Air ForceService Pilots because the jobs that they had expended. Where initially they were just would be very pilots. By the three, the realized the only air forces, had an opportunity to see what else women could do. And so expanded to targets initially but it give david that it North Carolina doing also the jobs. The realized that the name was no longer accurate expanded it to women Service Pilots which there were men who were Service Pilots read so they were taking something that already existed in calling them women Service Pilots and then i think the added air force in there to make it nice academic. General arnold was all about the rpm setting he wanted something that sounded nice furnace im pretty sure, havent found the document to permit yet but to say that was the name change where came. But is on the same group and the cooperation and collaboration was there from the beginning. Civic and say the dates of what youve got to say september of 42 to december 44. Thank you for letting me go that up. Allison i think those of the things that are important to clarify and it helps to understand the story better. This one of the things that this book, the women with silver wings. It can you give the back story what is the significance of the summer wings. Katherine thanks for asking that. The book is titled that because they talk about the significance of the wings personally. This was an incredible achievement. As an and they received their wings after they graduated when they were flying to getting married or having a baby this was one of those moments in time in their lives that it was so significant. Women almost didnt have wings for this first drummer of that class of 23 was going to graduate in houston homeowner weeks for them. So the people on the ground decided that was wrong. The women had gone to the same rate training is live in the desert wings. So they called jacky who was at home and her husband answered. When the richest mittens in america. And said that the girls dont have wings and he said, getting some wings and we will pay for it. So jacky and her husband and for those planes for the first several classes until it got kind of figured out. And you can look, and also some of the wings are different until you get to the 1944 classes. In 1943 classes, theyre all a little bit different because there were two different vendors that but there claps on them and different things. Does wings meant so much to these women. And is symbolized that they were pilots. The dismissal was pretty separated them from the crowd. Allison thats wonderful. So many things and that you have mentioned several times friend even their uniforms. Our men uniforms. And clearly too large for these ladies. As part of the they had to go through the time. And the email, with the mans here theres a photo now. You see them in the flight jacket. Over 350,000 women joined but they never did officials military status. Was the reason reasoning behind that. Transpired to prevent that. Katherine i think that is a great question. There were technically civilians that were brought in. Part of that was the urgency for which they were brought into the room and the fall of 1942. One of these women pilots they werent sure how to do it. Civilian men were brought into the Army Air Forces. They could be brought in as civilians of the information is 90 days and then burning is the second lieutenant. That was kind of you did to see what wendy could do. Nobody thought that could women actually do this. Could they actually fly these planes. Thats why they called them an experiment to see if could the girls do it. So they were brought in as civilians with the intention that they were the rock into the military properly then became kind of political challenge of how you do paperwork. Do you the men under the Womens Army Corps or as the Service Pilots. And how do we do this differently. And it ends up in the spring and summer 1944 going to bring the men as a separate group in the bring it before congress. In june of 1944. Right after we go into normandy. So the timing was horrible. All throughout the spring of 1944. [silence]. The flight instructing from men who have been in the military. This man, we hadnt had the very long. Japanese, as we didnt need as many pilots. So we didnt need these flight instructors. All of a sudden they look. They see all of these women flying airplanes. And they want to fly them instead. So these men, they talk to the congressmen and senators and state why are these girls points planes and we should be. Its wrapped up in the womens bill to become part of the military becomes this whole kind of this gender challenge of do we really let women take these mens jobs. Or the taking of its jobs. In the add to that makes the fact that the bill comes up in june of 44 when we can baited normandy. The debate goes on throughout the month and is at the end. People were helpful in the summer and fall of 1944. People that we would be done by christmas. And so the decision they made to not make them part of the military, is a technical boat to set the bill aside. Theres another boat that could come up in the senate that fall but by september of 44, were moving forward. In the is do we need these women anymore. The focus back to skills that their abilities as pilots. But whether women can have jobs when men wanted them. And the idea behind this was that women were relieving men for other duties. By the fall of 1944, there were some have thought that the women were replacing men. That was just not socially acceptable. So just we see after the war, towards the end of the war, rosie river gets kicked of the factories. Because men are coming home from overseas. Theyre going to lose their jobs. Because there in the wet made this part of it. Thats a long answer. Allison is a sad ending for this incredible women. People didnt know and thats kind of hard to blame when you read the book in the early part one of the women, things they did before the war, and the one from i cant remember her name, ten days. I never heard of that. Want to note that these women did the things we get there still is aviators capote put into question. Ten days. This unfortunately part of culture at the time. So speaking to what the women were capable of full of doing a lot to do. Did any of the women talk to you about if theyre willing to come back or if they just, so grateful to be able to prove themselves at all and wasnt so farfetched at the time. Katherine think that is a good question. Thats one of the places where looked at what they talked about in the oral histories. Fifty years after the war. In the letters and diaries that they wrote the time. To see where they stayed consistent there. A number of them, wouldve done whatever the country needed. There are very patriotic and more appropriate they lost husbands and brothers some of the dead and wanted to be doing their part to replace those men to the. When you bring those been home. So they would have done what ever was asked of them. Im quite certain of that. The kind of tone is in the letter spring and the diners that the right in. They dont know what is going to be required that theyre willing to do whatever is necessary. When i interviewed them later, this can be some of them said, i never couldve done combat. Couldve done things that needed to be done. But emotionally didnt think they could. Where others actually, that lady in the right, she said she wouldve done it. She could fly the airplane and she wouldve done whatever needed to be done. And that if our country endeavor, she would have done it. So none of them expected to be taken into combat but i think that most of them were ready to do it if they needed to read. Allison there definitely a really neat group of women that really comes through the book when you write about them in the story. He mentioned he did dangerous things. It scares me senseless to think that im going to go up and essentially let someone to tap me. And you mentioned the controversy with one was shot down. Were there any lives lost rated. Katherine 38 women were killed during the war. And men were shot down. I want say that definitively. None were shut down. There were a few that they were doing the targeting, the planes would get shot. The didnt leave enough and things like that but none of them were shot down. And the 30th of god, is a variety of accidents. Some made allowance, one example of the planes just worn out. Especially 1943. We dont have as many planes. They were going where they need to go. And so it goes on the different bases, sometimes a lot of wornout planes. They were cannibalizing in the plans to repair them. See you have a lot of malfunctions and some are in training accidents. And they had instructors on board. Or something just went wrong. Its a wide variety of accidents. In some had accidents domestically as well. And one was comparable to men doing the same jobs critic is one of the statistics in my study of the spring lady good pretty everybody knew there were cool. Another goal. But within a good as pilots. So when you get around that and they were. The work did did was comparable or better the men who were doing the same job. Sadly, 38 were lost. But they did their jobs. Allison so with her talents, you recently published an article about teresa jane and her saga. The if you havent read it, i recommend you do. Shes given a piece and shes never flown. She managed to do it. Thats rare and all of the capabilities of these women and how they could just as daft great a part of it was a display do for themselves. They were willing to work so hard to do that. In speaking country separated sheep delivers a 47 made 10000. I was really interesting help she left her note in the flight log to the pilot who received the plane. In her address. A lot of would do that and get letters back. Did any of these corresponds become significant. Some think the bank talked about over the years or did you just find the letters. Katherine london dent friday they knew were going to go to combat that they would write little notes once in a while. And would get notes back. I dont know of any then turned into great romances for anything like that. But if anybody is out there knows one of the stories. Please let me know because i would love to hear about it. They meant a lot to most of the men in the. Pilots to have that communication. No under the story of what happened. Allison is definitely one of those neat little inside stories. Mispronounce, obviously covered this. They face a lot of challenges but was there a particular challenge that the women faced that kind of came above all of their challenges that they did that during the war. Katherine think during the war they face the challenges of knowing they were doing the right thing. Some of them had family. They all had at least one Family Member supported them. Her husband are father mother. But the idea that society did not respect women who served in the military very well. So that was a challenge. Being respected the knowing you doing your part in the work efforts read i think the fact that they were in training. And they all of these things. They were selected prayed but they had no military ranks. And when those 38 women were killed, the family got to earn 50. Rather than the 10000dollar military benefits. So that kind of balance between the two was a big part of it. In the summer 44, when they were disbanded, the war was still doing. It was in the middle of the battle of the bulge. When they were cut free this was very difficult for a lot of them. They were embarrassed and ashamed. They were confused and so that when the war ends, everybody comes home with his big party. Family room, you were released and it tells people that they werent important and that was hard for them to figure out what to do next. At all that training. And that government had spent a lot of money to get them qualified to fly these planes. They had nothing to do with it now. So they tried to fly for china. They try to go to china and the fine print to try to go to brazil. The resilience very open to them coming to fly for the. That the right there on plane preferably a steve 47. So that didnt work out for many of them. Theres a lot of good challenges. Allison initially the image embassy right now brings us down at this point press to come to the end of our discussion is this one. The fight for the women to get recognition. And these challenges have been ongoing even into recent years. He tells a little bit about how what spurred the striving how they were successful with that rated. Katherine were technically civilians but by the 1970s coming but that Womens Movement in the civil rights movement. And he starting in the early 1970s have the armed forces thing theyre going to for the first time ever, latin women flight military planes. In the women realized they had be completely forgotten. There were just forgotten. I was worse than anything else. So they determined to fixed that and be recognize