Good point. All right. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, david. Im mark tabson, see you at our next freedom certain webinar. Thank you. Booktv continues now on cspan2, television for serious readers. Ordinarily, we come to you live and in person, the mission of fostering stable feminist commitments, working for social justice and encourages the automobile all through these virtual formats. We find it really, really, really significant that we continue to do the programming that we already had scheduled because folks need history as we move through this historic time. Theres really no, i can think of no better book to help us focus on what the movement for black lives needs right now, what we who are white and want to contribute to black lives can do right now. And this man, race man, we have the editor here, michael and pam horowitz. And his widow, we hope, will be on soon. Shes having some technical difficulties. Settle in, make yourself at home. We will get to some question and answer in the chat, but please keep yourself on mute. You can turn your camera on if you like, you dont have to. But were just going to enjoy some time with michael and, hopefully, get pam on the line as well. Please welcome michael long, editor of multiple books and one of my favorites, a really important collective work of [inaudible] so i want to just go ahead and bring you in, michael. Is so if folks will switch their view from gallery view to speaker view when michael starts talking, he will be on speaker view, and he will take the up the screen. Please welcome michael long. Thank you. Its good to be with all of you. Can you all hear me okay . Am i coming through enough . Yeah, you sound great. Okay, great. I scheduled the format to be with pam in dialogue, so since shes not here [inaudible] suggestions that i begin with a bit of a reading but we can adjust and move along as organically as we possibly can. You suggested i begin with a bit of a reading from [inaudible] in atlanta. By the way, i lived in atlanta for several years. Im graduate of emory university, and i love the city. I didnt know bond while i was there. Hey, i see pam has joined us. Has she. Pam is here. Pam, its good to you. [laughter] yes. How do we we do this . Is this a split screen or is the person talking the one who appears on the careen . The person whos speaking appears on the screen, so you will just if everybody turns their camera on speaker view as opposed to gallery view, you will speak automatically between speaks which is the most fluid way to do it. Okay, great. Everybody got that . Okay, super. Pam, welcome. Its good to have you with us. Thank you. I thought we would begin by talking about the george floyd protest. It seems timely, to say the least. And ive been thinking a lot about julian bond and Bayard Rustin and dr. King during this period, and i thought i would begin perhaps with a reading from julian bonds essay from, oh, my goodness, this must be the early 1970s, though i dont have the date right in front of me. But its about violence. And bond is talking about whos violent in america and whos not. So let me read this and maybe we can go to the protest from here. What page are you on, just so i can 56 in the book. Were at race man, everybody. Julian bond selected works. And ill be reading from pages 5657. Pam, im right at the end of page 56. Okay. We need to discover who is and who isnt violent in america. Violence is black children going to school for 12 years and receiving 5 years of education. Violence is 30 million hungry stomachs in the [inaudible] nation on earth. Violence having black people represent a disproportionate share of [inaudible] in vietnam. Violence is a country where counts more than people. Violence an economy that and i love this phrase socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor. Violence is spending [inaudible] violence is spending 78 billion to kill and another 12 billion to make coal. Violence is 6,000 American Farmers receiving [inaudible] not to work. Violence is Richard Nixon and spiro ago knew ignoring the expression of [inaudible] and the list goes on. What bond is doing here is trying to expand our understanding of the meaning of violence is so that we dont restrict it to things like violent, so we dont restrict it to physical force, so that we have an expansive view of violence and see it in very broad term. Its interesting that you started with that because obviously when you put this book together, you could not are known what was going to, what we were all going to be facing now. And even this event was put together, we didnt know what we would be facing now. And so for me, the, you know, the book is more resonant than ever, although, you know, since White Supremacy and racial discrimination, its in our countrys dn ark, its not surprising that many things julian said many years ago resonate today. But when you said, you know, a broad definition of nonviolence, i, i went to page 230 which is, which is saying we must be careful not to define the ideology and practice of white strep city too a narrowly. It is better than scrawled graffiti e and individual indignity such as the policemans night stick or the job, home and education denied. It is rooted deeply in the logic of our market system and the culturally defined and politically enforced crisis paid for different units of prices paid for different units of labor. And then, you know, theres also in one of the last speeches that he gave he talks about, you know, we practiced dissent then and we must practice dissent now. A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death. He ends with a reporting on the present chi sis which is one of, was a favorite of his and is with one of my favorites. But, you know, all of that is just today. So historians dont hike to answer questions like this, pam, but when you think about julian and when you think about the George Floyd Protests going on now, how do you think he would have this trajectory of thought . Oh, i think he would be delighted. I mean, you know, he would have been upset at the violence and lawlessness, as we all were, because with it detracted from the message of the protests. But he was, you know, black lives matter mattered while he was still alive. He was very admiring of that movement. He saw himself and sncc in black lives matter, so he would see himself and sncc in this. And i think he would think that its, we are in a moment. And parking lot hi, i mean partly, i mean, i its a trifecta because, you know, we had the pandemic, then we had police killing, and we have a president whos making everything worse. And so, you know, here we are. But for all of that, i think its uniting to allow, you know, a moment when there might really be some significant change. You know, i was going back through his writings about violence and riots, and it seems to me that he wasnt opposed to violence on so much principle grounds. He clearly believed that violence was problematic because he believed in the inherent dignity and worth of everyone. But when he talked about riots, it was usually about the trouble [inaudible] nature of Police Officer r Police Officers invading Police Officers invading [inaudible] but we do agree that, we do agree that he wasnt opposed to violence so much on principle as pragmatic grounds. Does that make sense to you . Julian . Yeah. Yeah. I think, i think there were two views of violence in, at least two in sncc, and one was that, you know, it was a tactic, and for some it was a tactic and for others it was a philosophy of life. And for julian it was definitely the former and not the latter. And he supported, you know, the people who weren gaminged in selfdefense were engaged in selfdefense back then. There was a case involving the naacp leader in North Carolina who was thrown out of the naacp, and julian always opposed that. And now we know, i mean, i think they had some inkling at the time, but now we know how many people really were armed during the Civil Rights Movement of the 60. And charlie cobb wrote a book, this nonviolent thing get you killed. And julian had a couple of experiences during the movement with, you know, people who had everybody had guns. Hardly it was, you know with, it was the south, and it was aing cultural thing, and it was a protective thing. And its, we used to talk about how amazing it was that there was never just a full scale shootout somewhere and that they were able to maintain a nonviolent movement. And the strength it took to do that. This, it didnt make them wusses, it made them incredibly courageous. Yeah. I dont want to veer too much into Bayard Rustin, but hes a favorite of mine, and i know he was a favorite of julians as well. But in montgomery in 1956, dr. Kinged had armed bodyguards around him, dr. King had guns in his home. So dr. King wasnt initially a pacifist. Its really interesting to me. I was wondering whether julian ever confessed to having carried a gun. No. No. No, he i know he never did. And, in fact, it was very exciting because whats the name of the black panther guy from the west coast . He came to visit atlanta, and julian was supposed to drive him around. And so he decided that he should have a gun because he would expect, the black panther would expect julian to have a gun. So somehow i dont know if his brother james found the gun, but somewhere there was a gun, and it was like this rusted thing that had probably [laughter] never been shot or at least not for years. But they put that on, you know, like the dash of the car to impress [laughter] this black panther. Julian never touched a gun. Okay. You know whats interesting to me is that when he was just beginning in sncc, he described himself as a pacifist. And he actually traced some of that to his roots at the George School, a school here in pennsylvania. By the way, everybody, im coming from pennsylvania, and pam is coming if North Washington d. C. [inaudible] is with us, from san francisco, i believe. And thanks to stacy e from city lights books for being with us and for helping to arrange this. Glp yes. So he initially described himself as a pacifist, which i found really [inaudible] i think, i think it was because he was opposed to the war in vietnam, and that was the war that was happening then. And i think as time went on, he realized that he probably didnt really qualify as a pacifist in the proper essence of the term. Right. No, when he went, when he was called before the draft board and they called his name and the draft board person said i know all about you, youre one of those sitdowners right. And then he said youll never get in this mans army. [laughter] of course, that was great. He acted as if that was some sort of punishment. Right. And then, but they made him, it was not it was they classified him as mentally unfit oh, okay. Morally up unfit. Wow. So he didnt serve in the military at all, and throughout the rest of his life would [inaudible] who i usually supported and led draft dodgers like george w. Bush. So maybe we could go back to the beginning. Well, let me stay where we are right now, and then ill go back to the beginning. But had he continued [inaudible] what do you think his assessment would be right now of the trump era expect trump years . Well, i think he would be appalled. I mean, you know, trump the republican field had been formed and thered been at least one debate before julian died, and so we had watched that. And there were, as youll recall, many people, 17 or 18 or so when they started. And like most people, julian did not take trump seriously and did not think he was a serious option as the party nominee. And so he, from day one, he would have been, he would have been appalled. But, you know, when trump was first elected and lots of people said to me, or well, you know, what would julian think, what would julian say, and i said from the beginning that he would say dont agonize, organize. You know . He would have been geared toward making sure that he was a oneterm president. But i dont think, i dont think any of us well, i cant speak for him or even the rest of us, but i dont, i did not imagine that it could be this appalling. I didnt you know, every day, i mean, today to decide that the 75yearold in buffalo is, you know, anticop, provocateur, i mean, its like, you know, he outdoes himself on a daily basis. And julian if his standard speech that he was giving for the three or four years had a line about one party is spineless and the other party is shameless. And they still are. It was true then and its true now. So he would also be, i think, you know, quite disappointed in his own party. You know, he wrote this one piece that was in the early 70s, and he says that shouldnt be in the back pocket of either party. They should have independent politics, as he put it. Independent politics. And it would be a mistake for them to lose leverage by identifying with the Democratic Party so much or with the republican party. There wasnt a real option at that point. But i found it really interesting since he was democrat. Or when he initially ran for office, wasnt sure which party to register with. You know, his father was a republican. Right. Well, that was when, you know, there were not just decent republicans, but black republicans. Right. The party of lincoln. Right. But, you know, very early in julians career, i mean, with nixons strategy you saw where the party was going and how it wanted to get there. So there has really never been an option. Ideally, and julian spoke about this, you know, you would have both parties vying for the black vote. And then, you know, have more to show for it. But thats not been the case in, you know, in the last, what, thiess 50 years. At least 50 years. Youll have to forgive me, everybody, for wearing a hat. The one i chose was 42, jackie robinson, and like bond, he had this dream of what he called the twoparty system for blacks to [inaudible] for a particular party. To black folks could determine which candidate or party best advanced black interest, and thats sort of the dream or the notion that bond had. At least in the late 60s, early 70s before the southern strategy that pam was talking about. Pam, since you talked about the phrase dont agonize, organize [audio difficulty] i know he agonized over, that of course, and [inaudible] anniversary. And he sort of chewed out the during his speech that he gave there. And he said that the rage that was expressed following the shooting was good, but nobody transferred that or transitioned it or morphed it into an organization that had policy goals. And julian, it seems to me, was always about not only protests, but moving protests to politics. Can you comment on that . Well, you know, that was a big subject of debate among sncc people. And sncc discussed it endlessly as they discussed most things. And argued. And, you know, there was a lot of discussion and argument about whether julian should run for the legislature because that, you know, that was not seen by some as being coopted and turning his back on the movement and what can you accomplish in elective politics. And so a decision was made, obviously, that it was a good idea. And is sncc people ran his campaign, and they were pretty strategic about how they ran sncc and how they handled his campaign. And so the whole idea of running for office was that you were going to accomplish something and that you had, or you know, an agenda. And in julians case, his First Campaign was really what is still, they say, the most workable way to get votes, and that was to knock on peoples doors and introduce yourself and find out what the people were thinking, what the people wanted. And so that was his, thats what he did, and that was his initial platform. And i think thats how he approached, you know, politics and political office, you know, his whole political career. Yeah, its interesting, everybody. By the way, sncc is the student nonviolent coordinating committee, and well get into it more, but he would show up at peoples houses or people tagging along with him would have pieces of [audio difficulty] and then they would go into the backyard, and if everything worked out okay, thered be a cue, they would invite the neighbor, and bond would [inaudible] say whats wrong with politics and what would you like to see accomplished. Then he would take that and put it into his platform. So the platform was the neighborhood platform. Which is a beautiful way to run rather than present your platform to your neighborhood, you go meet your neighborhood and develop your platform from there. So lets go back to the beginning. I know you know some of the Family History well, but could you sketch some of the Family History and maybe tie it to the reasons why julian was a civil rights activist . Maybe you could talk us through a little bit of his Family History. Michael and pam, before you all tart talking, im going do you if youre in between talking and listening if you could mute your mic so when youre done speaking, just because were getting a lot of feedback on the line. Oh, okay, sure. Yeah. Pam, did you yet my question get i my question . Yeah, yeah. Julians family on both sides was educated, and is so education was seen as the way to a future, a way to help the race, to influence the race. His father his grandfather was actually a slave because he was born in 1863, and he, along the way he was born in kentucky. Thats where Maria College is. And at some point he learned about it, and julian always told the story about his grandfather whose name was james, the original james bond, took his tuition, a steer, and walked across kentucky to the college. And the college let him in. He could e not read or write. He was 16. So it took him many years to graduate. But when he did, he gave the valedictory address and went with on to get a theology degree. So i always used to say that if you didnt have a doctorate in the bond family, you were considered undereducated. So they were all, they were all educated on his fathers side. His father himself became, graduated from college when he was, like, 16. Got a doctorate at the university of chicago. Became a noted educator. Did research that is still considered Ground Breaking on education. He wrote his main book was called negro education in alabama. And then his mothers side was almost as educated, and she herself was a graduate of fisk who, at the age of 52, got a degree in Library Science and then worked as a librarian until she was 92. And debated whether or not she should retire then and decided that she would. So i, you know, it was a very di