Held by Video Conference was hosted by the american bar association. Its my honor to date to begin the panel, the aba annual meeting quorum on justice in policing a path forward with senator tim scott of South Carolina. Thank you, senator scott so very much. Its a privilege have you join us for this program at the aba annual meeting. Thank you and thank you for your leadership. Without a question americas better because of folks like yourself, strong powerful position to make a difference so thank you for having made investment to make a difference. Thank you, sir. Senator scott what do you see as the role of congress in approving police and Community Relations and bridging the gap of trust particularly with Community Communities of color across our nation . I think Congress Plays a role in that, even a significant role but perhaps the most Important Role is the one of the local level, the mayors in the county, chairman or charwomen, those folks have most direct path towards Police Reform not those of us in congress. I will say come shared this story so at times, ive been stopped by officers 18 times in the last 20 years, seven times in one year as an elected official and all of my 18 stops were either by city, county or state Law Enforcement, never by federal Law Enforcement officers. Literally while we know the president ial election is important this year, another very important one. The truth is your election for your mayor, a lot of citizens dont participate in, election every city council members, those of the folks directly of institutions of power that determine the type of local Law Enforcement you have. We dont vote in those elections, we are actually taking a step back from the one place where Police Reform comes to life immediately in your city. Were going to do all we can and i worked on legislation i think bipartisan legislation. Im having great conversations with the chairwoman of the congressional black caucus, karen bass were looking for a sweet spot in common ground. I spoke in the last couple of days with family members whose brothers died at the hands of Law Enforcement. We want to see something done but the more i spoke with the family of the victims, the more they kept saying that a local issue. It really is in a very big way local issues. Were going to continue applicable because we must but our ability to ban chokehold is on the federal level. We can only encourage behavior by what we do with grant dollars which is an important part but its really less than 5 of the average Department Revenue stream so that support part of the equation. Especially someone who has felt discrimination at the head of Law Enforcement its really important for us to recognize that most of that is a local decision. There have been calls to define the police. When you hear that term, defund the police what does it mean to you and you think its appropriate to examine how resources are distributed to communities . I think its important for us to examine how resources are distributed but the concept of defunding the police is this garys thought ive ever heard as relates to communities of color and the vulnerable communities. I hosted several weeks ago our roundtable discussion with africanamerican leaders about South Carolina and attorney general barr. The one thing, the one consensus was lets not defund the police but talk about a better strategy of having Police Respond and a couple of ideas that came out of the room was consistent with executive order that came out of the administration. One was call response, departments of having Mental Health experts responding to homelessness and Mental Health episodes, respond to issues of addiction. Those places where the Law Enforcement agency should health care, Mental Health care experts as a part of their team win a responding to these unique and specific circumstances that they responded with the type of expertise that is necessary to prevent an escalation of force when possible. I will say this way. You are too young to remember these days but in the 80s we had 6,700,000 additional beds for Mental Health patients that we do today. I think that has a Significant Impact on what were asking our officers to do today. If we could find a way to embed within the response Mental Health experts, we might walk away with a lot of lives saved. Do you think consideration should be given to offer to limit our remove the unity into a byLaw Enforcement enforcement and you believe congress will act to address qualified immunity . I just had conversations begin with family members about the specific issue and when i say family members, family members of deceased who lost their lives advance of Law Enforcement. What i told them was there are two ways to do at that qualifid immunity. One way is is a way for us to provide recourse in restitution to the extent possible for the life that was lost . That im all on board to figure out how to make it more punitive for cities, municipalities, departments, counties and given for states to be responsible for the actions of their officers. At the same time if you want to continue to recruit and attract highly talented very motivated character driven officers you have to protect that officer and their personal possessions from the lawsuits from my perspective to the extent possible. The current threshold we have i would support what also make it easier for families to receive restitution in recourse by making it easier for them to sue cities and departments and or counties or states. How do you see the role in solving the crisis of incompetence and Law Enforcement . Are you confident you can make a difference and how would you go about doing so that we can move to a better place in this country as we need to be . I am a part of the team that can make a difference. I hope i have made a difference. One of the things we dont spend a lot of time talking about and i cant for the life of me figure out why is how do we break the cycle that the too many African American boys who grow up to become in one of had some negative interaction with Law Enforcement and or incarceration. The keys to the from everything ive studied, education and poverty. Some breaking the cycles should be a robust part of ongoing conversation as we look to address the issue of social justice. Of the things that ive been working on for frankly five years, i started this conversation after walter scott on vacation we provide more resources for body cameras because i know personally that had it not been for a miracle of a bystander recording the incident where walter scott was shot in the back five times, shot at eight times, had it not been for the camera none of us wouldve ever secondguessed a Police Report that had been falsified to protect the officer. That is of the situation that we have to overcome as quickly as possible and one of the ways we do that is by putting in as much pressure and force on the system to change but being in a position having lived in that same community, ive taken it as a personal part of the odyssey, this journey i am on to provide more funding for body cameras to work on legislation that has passed the senate like antilynching legislation, to work on opportunity zones, bring more money into the poorest neighborhoods to continue to bring recordbreaking levels of funding for historically black Colleges Universities as ive done for the last two years. Theres a lot of things we can do, a lot of things we should do that is not directly connected to Law Enforcement but it is absolutely connected to the pipeline of justice. If i want to reduce the number of incidents that people of color are having in the Justice System, i need a break that cycle as early as possible. Senator scott, thank you so very much for being with us. We very much appreciate the time you spent with us today. And i will turn it back over to joey jackson who will then discuss further your thoughts as well as their observations regarding policing in america and the path forward. Thank you so very much. Thank you as well. Have a great day. Welcome to justice in policing, a path forward. My name is George Jackson and im an attorney and we have a lot to discuss. We are in very trite and difficult times, those trying a difficult times have been brought about by what weve seen as injustices with our own eyes and theyve occurred primarily with police involving people of color. We are in a situation where i think people have come to the conclusion enough is enough and are looking for paths forward that are right with reform, rife with the issue of equality and policing that is done in a way that treat all people of all races in a very equal way, ina very sound and respectful way. What were seeing across this country are protests everywhere and those protests consist of people huddled for black and brown but they consist of people who are of all colors and to think they goes to the issue of people knowing that what they see is wrong. Knowing what they see is amiss. Knowing what this he needs to be altered, changed, reform. Today as we gather to have this very important discussion it was very appropriate and felt very important that we bring about a Diverse Group of people in this panel that could address the perspective from a court perspective, academic perspective and policing perspective, a political perspective so we can get to the root cause of the issue. Not only what the problem is but discussed solution come discuss moving forward, discussing in this time of opportunity and i will call at a time of opportunity because when we see these issues is a crossroads now. What are we going to do . How are you going to fix it . What measures are going to be put in place so that their people have died at the hands of police who could have legacy and the legacy will be that perhaps future lives lies can be chang, perhaps policing again could be brought to a situation where there could be a gap bridge between communities and please, between police and communities and moving forward can be done and i guess a more compassionate way for in a way that acknowledges and represents that we have to Work Together. We have to Work Together in a way that respects everyones right and respects the rights of black and brown people across this country. Doing so in putting together this panel there was a Dynamic Panel indeed that was brought together from a crosssection as i noted of people who just bring a wealth of knowledge and experience. I will start first of course and just introducing judge susan morgan, a Federal District court judge in louisiana ritual be introducing herself momentarily but no stranger to this issue. Presiding over, having those whom information understand about the process as relates to policing and what the extent of those decrees does come with effectiveness are, what that looks like moving forward until it is a pleasure and privilege to have her here. We also have tracy burch, doctor tracy burch, professor tracy burch and she brings an academic perspective, a perspective of wisdom, a perspective having to teach people and speak to people and to flush out these issues and the classroom. To develop and work with bright minds moving forward which will have perhaps bring meaning, further meaning and dialogue to this discussion of how we fix broken system. We know we have commissioner Michael Harrison here as well, a person who is been in the trenches on this issue, which rose amongst the ranks, who is been a model of excellence, an example on issues of policing, who was formerly in louisiana and then of course is now in baltimore as the Police Commissioner will also be joined later by senator scott and he certainly brings a political perspective to this. The senator working on legislation and reform in many issues hopefully the city will get it together with house to look for to speaking with him as well. Just to get into this panel i would like just for a minute for each panelist to again sambo, introduce themselves and speak to the issue of why this is that an important issue of our day and how we move forward in a better way. Judge, if we could start with you because im smart enough to know he always start with the judge. Take it away. Im a Federal District court judge in new orleans here i have civil practice until 2012 when i was appointed by president obama and about four months later i got assigned to New Orleans Police Department case. Im coming up on eight years working that Consent Decree and ive learned a lot about policing and about Police Reform and i definitely see a road for Consent Decree to play in Police Reform in our country. Its not the only way but it is one way i found to be very effective. Thank you, judge. Professor burch, if we can turn to you. Thank you so much, jelly. I am a professor of Political Science and also a Research Professor at the american bar foundation. One of the major issues that i research is criminal justice and the politically effective criminal justice and participation im working on a project that examines how and when people respond politically when protesting and how they do that. So happy to be here. Were happy you are here. And then of course professor, excuse me, commissioner harrison. Pfizer also because he knows this stuff inside and out but commissioner. Thank you julie. Take you for having. Im honored to be a part of this panel. Especially to be joined by judge morgan why the pleasure of working with for four half years. I got my start with the New Orleans Police Department, spent 28 years and theyre their at in 2014 was asked to take the lead as Police Superintendent but going into the second year of a federally mandated Consent Decree and served the department for an half years. The superintendent they can get through various stages of compliance. I was very blessed to be asked to take the lead for the Baltimore Police department and then moved to baltimore and is in its second year of Consent Decree in 2019. Here i am now participating in my second major city Police Reform under a federal Consent Decree which is about making reform and transforming the department into the department that the citizens have asked for and the city has agreed. Honored to be among your panel. If i could start with you and just having this discussion, commissioner. I know youre on the hot seat. Your reputation really precedes itself. Youve done tremendous things and we are at such a difficult time. When you look at it, i know police are in a tough way to people are blaming a lease for a lot. Were in a difficult place and it just think for my perspective i want to make clear communities need police, police need communities. We know there are those police who may run afoul and may do things which obviously serve as a lightning rod and bring the eye of the entire community as they should. I guess what i would say central looking at a path moving forward how to get our hands around this problem . A Citi Community policing issue . Is that the training issue . Is it a recruitment issue . Whats the issue and how do we make it better . It is all of the above. You pointed it out, it is everything from how we recruit to how we hire, and who we train, how we create policies that support that training that turns into positive police performance. Its Committee Engagement and i like to say, i like to say we are not different from the community. We are apart of the community. In my opinion there is a distinction between police and the command. We are part of the community we serve and everything we do that breaks the trust and breaks the relationship between the police and security were doing it to ourselves. Not just a community where harming ourselves. We are part of that community but it is everything that we do. Every single policy the way we perform, the way we engage, the way we enforce and the way we treat people with dignity and respect and our policy should support that everyone is treated with dignity and respect and with equity. Thats what a Consent Decree is. It is designed in new orleans as it is in baltimore to transform the department to do all of those things so that were looking for the right people with the right temperament and the right will to do this work who will be engaging and endearing antipathetic and compassionate, tough on crime, soft on people. Very well said, commissioner. You bring up the issue of Consent Decrees. Judge morgan if i could pivot to you on the issue as a as a pero knows so much about that issue. Start with talking about why we have this image criticized the president and increase penalty with decreased incarceration, its a good thing that empowers d. O. J. To initiate pattern and practice investigation and the Police Department and determine whether there engaging in patterns of practices of unlawful conduct. And not only are they empowered to investigate but resolve a situation, what that means, they can attempt to negotiate with the department or state but if they cannot negotiate, it will file suit against that department, fortunately most apartments presenting with a d. O. J. Investigation agreed to incentive in the regular suit in order is scheduled for an integral part of helping the city to implement. The big part of it is courts typically hire a Monitoring Team that help them because its not something that a judge can do on their own and thats the unique part of it. Ive been very active engaged with before and after he left because what you need is someone who can bring the parties together and we get that response, why are we doing it that way because thats the way weve always done it, i say that is not the way were always doing it and i tell folks move forward, the citys goal and they reach to a certain degree in there working towards to complete all the agreements and getting out from under supervision. And the way to do that, they have to come into effect the component to a degree and i had to be clear with them about what is going to take for me too find them in compliance and monitoring against them. Judge, just as a followup before get to doctor birch as i can, when you have these consent degrees, how effective in terms of implementation are you finding them and what do you have with frustrations with the judge in terms of making sure there is compliance, making sure they are adequately implemented, how does that work . One of the frustrations, its taking so long, but it is not easy, to a degree it involves more very complicated to a degree, 120 pages in 429 paragraphs that covered everything, hiring, training, policies, supervision, transparency, its very comprehensive. But i believe it is really transformed in the world and although it happens with everyone at the beginning and there is a hurdle of learning and growing stage before you really hit your strife, but now once they get any good, the Police Department has been very good and it becomes part of who they are and they want to be Better Police force in the falls and practices in these progress is ineffective, that is where we are in the Police Department. A lot of things that people call for to perform in the country, we have accomplished already through our consent degree, such as deescalation training, crisis intervention training, treating officers how to deal with those Substance Abuse and Mental Illness and problems in a way that is more appropriate, only using the amount of force is necessary, giving warnings we need forced. I come a people are calling for orland 1030 done that. New orleans has dirtied. Where we are, we are well along the way but not quite there, it seems to me you have to put all these things in place and to start with policy and then we had to go to training, then we had to go to implementation and then we had to go to discipline if people dont follow the policy. And we put all those things in place, and for now is nearing the end where there is difficulty to do such as ensuring that those reforms are sustained and we can use those and also ensuring effective supervision, i think that is a difficult to put in place, another topic we are working with is establishing a constitutional and bias free. We know, the good news in new orleans the Police Department does not get a lot of complaints based on bias. Of any kind. But the scale is not enough to convince us that we are sure we can adopt that problem. In new orleans, we are doing something that the department has done it and i think other departments implemented, we developed a way to audit whether to stop when theyre constitutional, we are going to take a representative sample of all the stops and a combination of my monitor d. O. J. In the in opp itself and its going to look at those jobs and look at what the Police Report says, look at this deal interview which is the card that is involved and then look at the body wide camera. And by looking at all of those things on a random basis with somebody on camera, then we can determine whether there was any bias and whether any were unconstitutional. We can find that even though people may not be reporting these complaints, are they happening. Im looking forward to doing that and sharing it with other departments when the police tries to figure out a way to audit, we realize we can find where anyone elses who has done this before. So stay tuned, well let you know how it goes. Youre on the frontline of this for sure, to have an instrumental role at it enter mental time is so compelling, before returning back to the commissioner of the nittygritty issues with consent degrees, i want to go to doctor birch if i can, to the general, you deal with the research of these issues, you deal with the study of the issues, you deal with a having to talk to them and talk through them, the literature involved, what are the broader issues as you see for how we can take and grapple our hands around this issue, how we can move it forward and reach a place where theres a Greater Trust and not such a disconnect between communities and police. I think they are in the literature and policy communities there is at least two different avenues for which people are trying to institute reform. In the first of course, morgan and commissioner harris have talked about already is to change the quality of the character of contacts between the police and the public. So making sure that we provide departments in individual offices with these visits in the training that they need to make sure that their contact with the public whether its a stop or even an arrest or any kind of apprehension go according to the requirements of the constitution and civil rights. So then lets take training, funding and recruitment, it also includes better data and observation and surveillance calls and officer departments. At various levels. The second set of policies involved even if you have the quality and the content as the contacts of police, we may also need you can reduce the overall number of contacts with public altogether. And one very prominent example of that happening would be stop and frisk in your city, which is a policy that is instituted contact with new york City Residents facing, reducing those contacts is one policy that incense introduced opportunities. So you can kind of fit most of the solutions that are on the table right now in the two countries. Doctor, with regard to the whole contact issue with the contact you have with the police, it brings up another issue, i will pivot to the commission if i can to address it, its a loaded issue and relates to defending the police. It means Different Things to different people, some people may have the perspective that defunded the police means get rid of Police Department and crime runs rampant. Or maybe it means doctor birch did not indicate, or alludes to when we talk about contacts that police should not be directing traffic, police should not be interacting with the homeless, maybe police should not be interacting with people with Substance Abuse problems, maybe theres a way defunded the police to redirect the resources socially to let those who are more inclined to do these things, perhaps more trained and better trained to do these things to do them. When we get to the issue of defunding, what are your thoughts about that, is there place perhaps for reducing Police Budget and redistributing in a way for the people who are more apt to deal with issues in the last thing i will say before the material, we expect an awful lot of police, when things go poorly, we certainly blame police for them. But you guys are doing an awful lot, particularly, the final thing i will say, in this area of covid, we want police to make sure youre Wearing Masks or not Wearing Masks, we want police to make sure if youre 6 feet, a lot is happening, is this a time where we can have a conversation about the funding, do you think its too loaded, other other alternatives that we can perhaps not lessen the contact but the community and police and make it so the contact with the police is not as negative amongst communities because police are always telling people what to do, i dont know, i dont have the answer so i turn to you commissioner. Perhaps you have some. Its a loaded conversation. But we have been asked to be all things to all people. And that has turned into now making Police Response to help things that are better suited to handle, the concern weve had in baltimore, we have the city council cut off the budget two weeks ago 22 million, and eliminated three specialized units that i had to put those people back into patrol and it cut or overtime significantly and so while 700 short, the overtime for the sore plus to create an overflow so we can feel like we have a surplus of officers in Response Time for those, that will have a negative impact on the way that we are able to just perform our daily functions. That is not necessarily all bad but it really makes us have to manager resources. I fully understand it, does it mean move the extra money to someone else is better suited to handle it, i hear the analogy of building the state, other people are supposed to be doing it but in building a stadium were nowhere have you ever torn down a stadium, stop playing the game, build a new stadium and resume playing. What we do, were supposed to build a new stadium while we continue plane in the old stadium and at some point transition to a new stadium and then tear the new stadium down, i give you that analogy because were all things to all people, i have great concerns as do my other Police Chiefs across the country and for being cut in transitioning portions of our work to someone else who can better handle it, the question is are they able to handle it right now to the level we are performing right now. Are the entities even built, are they taking what were handing them and in many cases it is not, in many cases we cut the wealth and with other people to fund childrens programs and preventive programs and intervention programs, that is great but are they willing to produce an outcome today while there being cut today because that is a great concern, unconcerned about the gap that is created when no services are rendered because the thing that we want to handle it is not yet readily handled, we fully understand defunding an over the taxpayer dollar, my concern are we creating that and minimizing services and taking from people who are used to getting and not socializing while we cut it from the police and 70 else will not get paid. Absolutely. Before going back to judge, if i could just ask you on these issues, defunding, loaded issue, people having their thoughts about defunding, what it means, could it be proper, could it be proper, is there a role for defunding the police, what do you see that role being, is there way to effectively reduced to bit the resources of police are not all things to all people because no one can really be all things to all people and how do we move this matter forward in a way we can have a discussion with the more important discussion can lead to effective results for communities throughout the country. One of the things that i teach my students, i start my module on policing by asking a simple question, often the answers are pretty light but what is it that we do, by the time we have a list of 30 things on the board, it is just amazing the variety of things that we have from articles from calls of police to provide to people in daily or rescue people in commute, there is a long list of things and commissioner ted is all things. One thing i find interesting goes back to committal justice in general, not just police, the First Responders in the first line of defense but we have calls for instance here in cook county, our sheriff has been very vocal about the fact that in his words cook county jails has turned into Health Institutions and he thinks that is not the role that their institution should be playing and not equipped to handle. I think thinking about even if we took one of these issues of Mental Health in which again commissioner harris is rightly defunded a lot of the other communities support and services that need to help people and then we leave the criminal Justice System at the last line of defense. So increasing funding and staffing and resources in the community that need them, it will take time and it will also take an investment. I think people now are ready to make the investment but like i said people in Law Enforcement have been calling for years. Without question, judge morgan if i turn back to you, we talked about content degrees which are extraordinary important and more important to have 70 like you presiding over them to ensure their implement to properly, is there another judicial role that you see the judiciary could have in the whole bridging the gap issue, i know judges you sit on the bench, is there a lot of prepping issues that come before you, what is a judicial role and perhaps having the whole addressing police issue, is it limited to consent degrees, are there other things the judiciary could or should be doing, anothers issues that can come before you but i will ask you to touch like qualified immunity or that type of thing, what can the judiciarys role be or is it just making sure consent degrees are carried out appropriately and effectively . I think the most effective is the federal judge in the defense decree, of course not every city is going to have a consent degree. Even if you have adjusters that want to pursue those, there is just to any Police Department across the country for that to be done, of course there are also many Police Departments who are not subject to two cree who can have their own reform efforts, i think its a little more difficult because they dont get the resources that they need, i can help the in opd get the resources to put the reform enclaves. Unfortunately, i dont see a big role for the federal judiciary under the mat, what we see is the consequences that Police Misconduct takes on Excessive Force and then were dealing with an event that is not as productive and positive and were dealing with it and i do want to say about defunding issue, i think the Police Department, they are not going to cash as i said many departments dont have the resources, i had this out with the resources because they were under the consent but there are many situations where the police have to respond where you need a Law Enforcement officer because many of the calls that deal with the president to have a Mental Illness, the law is in a dangerous situation and lets say you did not need the police to respond for that situation and cant get a social worker out or but theres other situations where others may be more qualified for example, the eighth district in new orleans, the First Quarter has gotten a grant to work with homeless advocates when they have people who are on the street and one way to deal would be send the police out, take them out and send them to jail and they have someone who they can call the help that person to in my experience, the pleaser eager and they want to have more of that kind of help, i just have not seen that they really have in the budget to take money away from the police and do to redirect it, i think theyre going to have to divert under devote more resources to those services. Without question, there is a lot of needs out there and on the issue of those needs, the question becomes a police adequately funded to get a cut to redistribute them in the first instance, they should be redistributed, perhaps if theyre not we can look to other sources of revenue. But i wanted to address another thing, i will not address it with you because maybe you have to rule on these issues, but i wanted to get back to the volatile issue of Police Contact with members of the community and often times that contact could go awry into judge without addressing it with you, why dont i address it with the commissioner first, the issue of qualified immunity. The issue of whether or not we may see legislation in the future that eliminates qualified immunity, that perhaps makes police more accountable with respect to at least civil and when i say civilly, monetarily without perhaps having qualified immunity serve as a shield because there are instances where police that shield cannot be pierced and police hold accountable. I want to address with you, what are you seeing, not only with regard to but what are your concerns about the potential elimination or the pullback of qualified immunity and whether that would be problematic or helpful. What do you see with that . I think many of the chief across america and the executives whether chiefs or sheriffs, commissioners or whatever their title is, we all know that has to happen, there has to be reform and transformation. We have been in constant communication and talking about qualified immunity. I think many of us are in agreement that that is the one thing aside from all the other reforms that we agree we have to make that probably concerns most of us most of the time because without that there could be a sense from Police Officers of their unprotected and should they not just them but their entire family could be negatively affected financially. So there could be a mass exit from the profession across the country and they could be a slowdown of recruitment and hiring into the profession should that happen. And that is the one thing we have not fully come to agreement to support what were talking about variation, how can we create some level of reform that has high level of accountability and high level of transparency without having this negative affect or just a total vulnerability of police at any time for any state. Thats a concern because we hear from our officers and we are talking to each other, what we want reform, whether we need reform or reform is needed, its deserved, thats the one thing that keeps us up a little bit then the other issue. Without question, doctor brix, before a transition, going to tell you what important respond to the commissioner. What i wanted to go with you and think about for a minute if you can, maybe the top three things that you see that we can really get our arms around this divide, that we can really, if this panel were looking at issues and how we can address it moving forward to get to a better place, i would come to our researcher and professor about what is the top things that you see in before asking you that, i just want with having this discussion with the commissioner, i imagine there is a lot, whether you call them shares or chiefs or commissioners or someone else, people presiding over Police Department, there is a discussion of qualified immunity in the discussion of what reforms are appropriate and what reforms are meaningful and what reforms perhaps are not, i know were looking at that and i think its important of talking about qualified immunity which might allow for more civil compensation for people who are injured at the hands of police, and addressing not know that qualified immunity may not mean that the officer, him or herself pursued or their house was taken or their cars are taken, perhaps theres a place for a legislative fix and im just raising the issue, im not advocating one or the other but im just raising the issue about a legislative fix that could potentially not pierced the officer directly or officers but allow the minister polity to bear the financial burden and to have people were compensated as a result of Police Misconduct. I want my words to be clear, my dad was a Police Officer, i wanted me too be a Police Officer, i had other ideas, i respect with the police do tremendously, we need the police, police and communities, im not screaming, get rid of the police, the police are bad but those who do bad things need to be held accountable, thats the place i come from with and again, just allowing you to respond, perhaps theres a place for minister politys be liable without individual officers to lose all of their possessions. Many Police Departments already are in that position. Certainly while my time in new orleans there was a number of major lawsuits against the new orleans please department and the then mayor, i was present with him, there were major major payouts for things that happened at the hands of Police Officers that embarrassed and harmed the city over a number of years, i think that happens in most places already. It certainly happened here in baltimore where mitigatio litigd settlement of that nature and people take the city to the court all the time, some wind and some blues. I think that already exist, the question is how do we create more accountability, more transparency and more reform to where we think we need to be. That makes the community satisfied with the level of reform that we need. Without question. And doctor, if i could just come back to you on the issue that a raise about what do you think of the top things we need to do and then i want to transition to the judge about the federal role in what the federal government can do to perhaps help and assist in this issue if youre on comfortable speaking about that, if not will transition to Something Else, doctor before judge morgan weighs in, what can we do, were in a desperate place, you study this, you know this stuff, youre passionate about it, you teach a course on law and race in recent police, help us out, where are we going and what do we need to absolutely do to get our hands around it. I think in general we have in our society too little on the needs of people and policing aside, i think sometimes it can just be a system of a larger problem. So like i said before perhaps spending more money to help people in need that were not in a situation where society and people get so desperate that they are in their worst and they come to a situation whether there at their worst. So thinking about some of the other problems that we face like the Opioid Crisis or other kinds of crises, getting a handle of those will begin necessarily reduce context in a negative context with police in ways that i think is beneficial. The second issue i think that we touched on quite a bit in this panel which is to think about accountability. Accountability can range from making changes to qualified immunity but also changing policies with the department about how they hold the officers accountable internally, hiring practices within the department with respect to who gets promoted, who does it, who can get jobs in other jurisdictions once they have done something or no longer employed in another jurisdiction. So accountability is not just qualified immunity, happens at another enter number of levels. The third one again, we have actually done as morgan discussed, weve done quite a few reforms already, some of which at the federal level i think has gone in and out but including federal accountability, thinking about the use of military and other military weapons on civilians in providing those to the department and what level were comfortable with as a society. All those things are issues on the table that we already have those conversations with our policymakers proved we can continue to do that. Without question, morgan transitioning to you to the extent you feel comfortable. What else can we do at the federal level, i was shocked to learn theres not a database on this issue of Police Misconduct, shootings, what role if any do you see or do you think perhaps this is better left to the local Police Officials and local Law Enforcement to the extent speaking about contact with a local contact occurs. I think theres a couple things a d. O. J. Can do, one the pattern and practices of the investigation. Also to help Police Department that want to reform without a full pattern investigation and a consent degree in the d. O. J. Does not do grants to local please department that could help them revise their policy and improve their training and accountability. That is a way that d. O. J. Does, do some grants but they could do more, they help department to some degree. Another thing that has to be done on a National Basis is registry for officers to have a serious misconduct complaint or be terminated because local or state if they cant do it on a local or state level, people applying for jobs is Police Officer to move all over the country from Police Department need a safe reliable way to find out whether an applicant has been terminated from another Police Department were serious use of force complaint, those are the things that can be done nationally. I think those are huge. Commission if i turn to you and get personal for minute, not too personal but i have to ask you, youre a guy who went from one extreme to another, did such tremendous things in new orleans and then you came into baltimore and things were pretty hot, i want to ask you from a personal perspective, how did you do without, how did you instill trust in the committee, how did you let officers know that you protect them and have their back but at the same time have expectations that they will do their job and not impede upon peoples rights, how has the experience been and how have you been able to navigate because it mustve been a political bombshell it was certainly tough. I split my time between hearing from officers day by day and the concerns of the officers and then by evening, my first night was with the Community Meetings, we have nine Police Districts and i had three and half or four hours each night in the auditorium or cafeteria allowing the residents of baltimore to ask any questions he and i took that ended that and i think that about me some goodwill with the people because they proceed with my first act as a Police Commissioner meeting with the parent in the community. That went over very well, from what i heard from the communit community and then what i heard from officers, putting that together, i was able to build a fiveyear Department Transformation plan which is on our website and takes us from everything from recruiting all the way to retirement. And then just making it really clear by socializing clear expectation, clear expectation that there are consequences for compliance and noncompliance and whats expected. And Holding People accountable. I was fortunate with the situation of baltimore in the national Police Commissioner was going, i was fortunate to be allowed to bring executives and higher from anywhere in the country. To my deputy chief of compliance in new orleans came with me too baltimore, my chief of staff came with me too baltimore and my number two Deputy Commissioner of operations in louisville kentucky join me in baltimore, we put together dynamic team and i had a retired fbi agent who was the chief of public fbi, on his retirement he joined me with internal affairs. We joined in with people with credibility and we made sure we found people who had the right skill set, temperament, will and ability to be in a leadership position with the Police Department and the fact that there were some had to stay and we built this team and that we were serious and we continue to do that we continue to show the residents of baltimore that we are serious in working with our federal judge, it was really handson with the consent degree with all the support that we need and where we have a number of mayors, we have the new support of the department of justice. And thats what helps me and makes it easier for me, if it were not for consent degree. That is powerful. Before getting back to you, if i just ask you, judge morgan, im going ask you something difficult if i could on the personal issue, you are a judge and you affect 70 peoples lives and its got to be an awesome responsibility that you have but there are times where the robe is off and youre a citizen and a concerned person, a role model too so many an independent thinker and you have a point of view. If i just ask you if you can and divorcing yourself from your judicial capacity and what youre seeing going on, what can we do as a society in your view to bridge the gap, if you have to make recommendations in your brought to a law school to have some discussion with students who are brought to a Police Department and have a discussion with police and they ask you as your role of a person who is so knowledgeable based on what you do and who you are and what you live through, what knowledge would you impart if you and i were having coffee, to anyone of the cigna areas, what knowledge as a person of substance to how we can resolve this issue going forward. First i would tell you, it can be done. And that people in Law Enforcement want to do it. And it takes the community and resources in patients and its definitely worth doing and it can be done and i would encourage any Law Enforcement officer or police chief to begin that journey, there are people out there who will help you because one of the great things, they have developed such a pure intervention program, they are very excited and happy to go out and help other departments, they like doing it, and makes them feel good, and reinforces for them as members. And it can be done, it is not easy to enforce it and there are plenty of people out there. You know what, i think we need that positive message particularly now, we really do. I want to ask you all about your frustration with this process in a minute but doctor brix if i can get to you, you preside over mine and people who are having their own skill set to our developing and going to be out here resolving and solving these problems, what is the one thing that your students, when they come to you and your wealth of knowledge and information to them that they have to understand, by the time doctor burgess classes is done for the semester, they leave with the perspective, what perspective is it and of course everyone is different, everyone is an independent thinker, but what you have to get them to understand in order to be an effective participant and Problem Solver moving forward. If i had to describe it, i dont know if i can say one thing but maybe in one sentence, i would say my undergraduate students need to leave with and understand one, the fact that the world is very gray, there arent many problems that can be solved with black or white thinking. But then i do want to give them the tools to a common know what happens before, we spend a lot of time on history. Be knowing the lay of the land and sea figure out how to evaluate information in order to get a sense of what is real and what information they can use. So if i had one thing to tell them, it is more an understanding of how to approach the confusing world that is out there and where to go to look for more information beyond what i have given them in order for their curiosity about different policy issues. Amen to that, commissioner if i ask you, a young officer shows up in your office, a rookie, rookie officer just about to begin their career and youre sitting in front of the Commissioners Office with all the responsibility that comes from where you sit in the wealth of knowledge, what advice would you have for the officer and then i will make the question of little trickier, the rookie officer leaves but a member of the community by the officer comes and says we have to fix this. What do you say to that first, the rookie first in order for them to have an effective career into move forward and maybe to get where youve gotten and all the struggles that have been associated with that and then after they leave, the person in the community who had a negative experience inside commissioner have to talk to you, how do we fix this, what do you say to those two people who are sitting across from you. First of all, you gave me two of the easiest questions. Because with every recruit that i start, i continue to meet with the recruit on their first day and then we graduate them i reinforce it by saying, the relationship will never fail. Improve every Good Relationship we have. Repair a broken relationship. And i encourage them to do those three things, if everything you do engage our citizens, the way you talk and handle their concerns, whether its a most volatile situation where the most precious situation like holding a baby, if you treat people like that, those relationships improve relationships, repair relationships and i tell every officer on the graduation date to do that. And then i tell them right, always right even if no one is doing it. Wrong is always wrong even if everyone is doing it. And i told them to think about those two things. When a citizen comes into my office or go into their home or meet them in the Grocery Store i or the gas station. I tell them that things are always going to happen, our job is to change culture, you heard us talk about policy and training and hiring and all the things that you talk about but we really want to change culture. When i joined, people say i would join to catch back i come as a sophisticated game of cops and robbers, we have to fundamentally change the way we think to make officers no, i joined this profession and this noble profession to serve and to protect people who wish to do harm, when i meet the citizens, the residence wherever i am at their home or in my office, i tell them things will always happen but we are changing the culture, fundamentally changing how cops think and why we do what we do and why we signed up for this noble work. Not to judge us on every time what they cs to do but rather look at my response in agencys response to it and how we handle it so that we have a culture and individual theyre complaining about is appropriately trained and disciplined in the agency has responded in the best interest of the community. Those are things i spend a lot of time telling communities. Thank you so much for that commissioner. If i go to you and asking this question, we see pattern and practice investigation of Police Departments across the country, there is an element of politics there, what i mean perhaps some administrations are more committed to pattern and practice investigation than others, perhaps not, we will have an election coming up in november, we will see what happens moving forward and how committed d. O. J. Will be in the pattern investigation. My question is a bit different, judge morgan. What can we do, are there any things that we can do moving forward as it relates to pattern and practice investigation to make them more effective, perhaps two more or less in to be at a better place when you have a confidence in communities and i dont their being investigated thoroughly and treating communities fairly. I understand that citizens wanting their Police Department to engage in constitution and policing and for some people is all people. I think the newly engagement is important in holding your elective officials with the head of the Police Department and its important and demanding more from constitution on police. I think another part, younger fortune of Police Departments, so it doesnt have the money to do training and supervision and then expect them to improve. I understand the budget and wanting to devote money to other resources and i also have to say in a personal opinion. Not at all, thats what i was asking, your opinion is valuable, just as a person who does so much on the bench and issue of justice and equality as a person who has a point of view when you take your robe off. That is so important. I guess i would transition to you and asking you the following question, were at a crossroads now and were at a place where i certainly hope where we can get out of him hopefully be in a place where we fix this issue, where we have Police Officers that are trusted throughout this country and we have africanamerican men and women that are interacting with the police and those interactions are hopefully a whole lot better than we have seen in terms of People Living in not dying at the hands of the police, what can we do professor, what needs to be done among policing perspective to fix this thing. Im sitting in your class and i want to know and im saying professor, tell me, how do we fix this problem, if i had to say here and rattle off the names of young africanamerican men and women who have died at the hands of the police, people looking for answers, people looking for solutions, now is the time. Professor, give me help, give me the ability to believe we will have a process moving forward that is where the and a process that is respectful. Do believe we will and do you believe we can climb out of this place and finally if we do, how is that going to happen . I do have hope for our country and for our cities in our communities and the reason is this, there are lots of people who are working on these problems, the political wealth seems to be there but most differently, were starting to think about and across the country, what is it that we want and expect from our police and how we want police to treat us. Part of that is to think about what kind of policing we all want, what we call the police on someone or will we call the police for help, what we expect from that. If we go to to Community Meeting within a community, how do we want the police to treat our neighbors, how do we want the police to treat our neighbor kids, and to talk about a great deal. I think the fact that we are all starting to consider even if we are not the people who are most likely to have a bad outcome from a Police Contact that we now care about and are interested in what happens to other people. I think it does probably have one of the biggest changes going forward. That is phenomenal, we certainly do need help, the last thing i want to present to the panel. We talked about a lot of issues, perhaps something as you sit there, judge morgan, doctor brix, something youre passionate about that we have not addressed, they could take a minute in your concluding remarks to address that or Something Else or something youre ready addressed that you feel strongly about. I just want to start with you commissioner, bring it home. Thank you, i think were out of time where people are demanding more from something very different from Police Departments, im going to work with mayors to come up with recommendations to our countries of what we think policing should look like in the future, what we want Police Officers to do, what we dont want Police Officers to do. I think all of us are fortunate and we will see better product in the future and will see better housing and better Police Department, better performance whether then consent degrees are not, the country is demanding more from that is deserved and very much needed and i look forward to the next generation of policing in america. Commissioner and maybe perhaps the next generation will be well prepared and well suited and provide such inspiration as you do on the career that you have lied. We need you on that wall and i appreciate you being on that wall. Thank you, thank you for having me. Professor birch, from your perspective, same thing. At as a political scientist, one of my favorite core commitments is to participate. And i believe that if you care about an issue, you should do everything you can to learn about her but also to get involved in a positive way to make change anyone listening to this if youre interested, one of the first things you convert to go to police and going to get to know the officers in your community. Getting to know other people in your community, even think about policing as a career if youre qualified and interested. Theres lots of ways that individuals can make it. And push for systemic changes and will be supportive of change. It is actually a really big deal. Especially at the local level, so people get involved in local government,. Without question, thank you for that and all that you do, with respect to the research you are doing about it, the fixes are coming up to resolve it in the great mind youre dealing with everyday that would develop them. Thank you so much doctor birch. Last, certainly not least judge, your role tremendous in all of this with Consent Decrees in dealing with justice and just really being a pillar of government that is so vital to what is happening now, were at a crossroads, is there Something Else you want to add to how we can topple this or something youre passionate about. I want to think the aba for shedding light on this issue in bringing the panel together and appreciate doctor birch and seeing chief harrison again and from his comments today, why he was so important in the reform efforts. I would say that no Police Department and no organization and we know that. I think what is important to keep in mind, what we need to do is to develop ways and Police Departments to detect the unlawful conduct in occurring and then have a place. I think each Police Department can do that so nobody is perfect but just as long with this process in good policies to detect misconduct if it occurs. Judge, i think you so very much as a person residing on the bench and having so much influence and control over what happens in a positive way, how these are carried out, how is justice mended out and a tremendous valuable role that you play every day. , enlightening the discussion, i tell you i am hopeful, again were at a crossroads, we are in a place in our communities are demanding more from change, perhaps i will be reforms that are meaningful and positive and perhaps there will be incidents that are far less than now as it relates to negative interaction with police and communities of color in particular in the place where we are all proud of each other, communities are proud of police and policing proud of communities. And police are deemed to be synonymous with communities, not outside of it, thats where we need to be. God bless you all, lets all hope for the best, pray for the best and more importantly lets work to achieve the best as it relates to police and Community Relations. During the summer months reach out to elected officials with cspan congressional directory, contains all the Contact Information you need to stay in touch with members of congress, federal agencies and state governors, order your copy online today at cspanstore. Org. The u. S. Senate is back in session to work on Energy Department on many with the procedural vote set for 530 eastern, his schedule for the rest of the week depending on the status of the kobe released package which is being negotiated. Watch live coverage beginning at 3 00 p. M. Eastern here on cspan2. Tonight on the communicators, Ohio Republican congressman bob on the need for better masks so Internet Access can be delivered to underserved rural areas. I think a really good thing that happened, they admitted, we do have a problem. So we put money out there to help get the masks correct, we have legislation which i was a pardon from the getgo and its important that we get it done, again if the masks are not right and were going out to to get the dollars in the areas where you
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