Could fly the jet, it doesnt care if you are a boy or a girl , just cares whether you fly well and shoot straight but it was a challenging time so i decided to beat them at their own game as they were playing their Fighter Pilot games and one of those things was chewing tobacco for a little while but i shared a story about how somebody said that to me and in the moment i thought if i died tomorrow this is the last day that i have on this planet after all the effort i tried to make a difference in others lives, if is that how im going to be remembered so i quit. And when you talk about dipping your talking about chewing tobacco. I know thats gross to people listening but youve got to read the book to understand the context of the whole journey. Whats an a10 . The a10 is called a warthog and it was built really to go after soviet tanks on the frontline. It was designed for what we call Close Air Support. So the folklore is they built this big 30 millimetergun and went to the engineers and said figure out how to fly this gun. I dont know if its true but there were no simulators when i went through training your first flight is solo and they bring you into the content cockpit of the a10 and i share that very first day and how i had to overcome my own fears and i take you into the canyons in afghanistan for one of my more complex missions where i had a plan but everything went wrong. So its job has changed. Its still the same mission, Close Air Support but its adapted to the current fights weve been in where if youre an american on the ground and youre in a firefight its often very complex on the move, close activity, good guys and bad guys. We take off to provide that firepower overhead and its very important that you can deliver that firepower again from three dimensions,looking from above. Youre coming in to be able to ensure that we save american lives. We deliver that firepower on the bad guys and we avoid friendly fire and get them home to their families and live to fight another day. Its still survivable, i can talk about it all day as you can tell. We had a hub around the cockpit to protect us from taking direct hits because it still could be onthe frontlines. We can lose one engine, all i hydraulics and have holes in the plane and still fly back safely to friendly territory. You describe, you quote a fellow pilot is saying flying is like wrestling while doing long division, what does that mean . I thought it was a great example at career day, one of my friends said in a middle of a wrestling match if they physically and mentally demanding at the same time. When we were afghanistan we would take off on a routine combat mission, theres nothing routine about it but we would take off with a map of every area in afghanistan and be diverted because troops were under fire somewhere and we begin a call sign, a great coordinate, a radiofrequency and be told go help those guys you are doing a lot of calculation, a lotof trying to figure out how to ensure your weapons your targets. Coordination with your wing man. You could have one or three people on your wing with the guys on the ground in some circumstances, you may be conflicting with artillery and theres a lot of typing involved, physics involved and while the bad guys are trying to take you out sorting all that out mentally and physically is a part of the mission but you come back sometimes on these long flights and you would be drenched as if you had been, im an athlete and as if youve been through a tough workout mentally and physically. This is a question ive never asked a us senator before but its apropos to you, how tall are you . Where i went through trying to get my pilot clearance i was five foot three and a half on a good day. I think you get shorter over time when you get older but i was a little too short to get into flying red my leg length is okay but my sitting was okay but my total height was a little bit short so that was my leg length was the issue. Where i couldnt quite meet the standards like i said, youve got to be this tall to ride this ride but what they did is they put us through settings in the cockpit to make sure because everybodys a little bit different can use c over the dashboard. To put it in civilian terms, can youreach the brakes and the runners, can you push hardfold runner because thats what you do to get out of the spin. You have to be able to do that. Can you function in the cockpit and i passed all those tests so iwas cleared to fly Flight Surgeon , by the Instructor Pilot but i kept having bureaucrats say i couldnt fly because of some arbitrary number that they came up with. So we push hard, with some creative rats and i share in their to fly, not many people will go through that but i can relate to being frustrated with trying to take their dream away or having obstacles come up in your own life so many people are experiencing that right now or having a friend be derailed. People can relate to that a lot in 2020. So i just shared a lesson of persevering and being creative and never giving up and dont have a chip on your shoulder ricky finding new ways in order to try and meet your dreams i was eventually cleared to fly. So pockets basically are designed for average men. Is that correct . They were, just recently by the way the air force announced finally this year that they are doing away with the arbitrary height restrictions and now theyre treating people as individuals to make sure that there to fly. The same thing is an issue if youre too tall you cant fit in the cockpit if you cant close the canopy , youve got to be able to keep your flying straight because when you hold the rejection handles about halfa if he forces that could break your back. If your legs are too long could actually lose your legs as you go to project out of an airplane so the limitations are there for a reason. But a lot of, some men and a lot of women missed out on the opportunities because of the arbitrary numbers and now they finally changed it all these years later. Did you grow up wanting to go to the air forceacademy . Not at all, i grew up in a middleclass family and my dad served in the navy before i was born. So i grew up with the values of service and hard work, getting a good education my dad came from humble circumstances. But people helped him out and he startedworking at the age of eight. People believed in him through using his g. I. Bill he was able to get a good education and he was driven to make a better life for us kids and i benefited from that area but i lost it when i was 12. I share this in there to fly. It really shocked and disrupted as you can imagine this little girls life in a profound way. And among other things in between heart attacks when i was left to visit with him he told me to make him proud and then he passed away the next day and the day before we were hanging out together as a family so this is a sudden shock in my life. My mom now five kids, went back to school and back to work as a Public School teacher and imnew education was the key to my future. Those were hard years for me. Very difficult for me as an adolescent but i also wanted to carry out his legacy do something meaningful with my life and i look for opportunities to get an education i didnt want to burden my mom with and i suddenly tumbled into going to the air forceacademy. Most parents can relate to teenagers, a little flaky and trying to find their way and i ended up applying to the air forceacademy and off i went. You applied originally to be a doctor, correct western mark. When i went to the academy i wasnt qualified to fly because of the height thing but i didnt want to fly. I didnt know what i was talking about but i was also a little motion sick as a kid and i thought getting a degree and becoming a doctor was a good path forme. So i went off to the academy and i bought for the first time in my life that just because i was a girl i could do something. I grew up in a family where i never knew there were restrictions on me and i found out it was against the law for women to the Fighter Pilots. Im a little feisty and i could channel my feistiness into something positive. Thats what i want to do just because you said i couldnt and im going to prove you wrong so i have this desire in my heart simply because they said women and girls could not do that and that started my very long path to eventually being cleared for takeoff 10 years later and i realized in those formative years desire to be a doctor was tied to my grief and trying to save other kids. They would fly in like what you do to get your pilot license. And when the instructor alex and ready to go usually do a practice run that day. And they get out of the airplane and youre good to go. We use this term often, dont do anything done, different or dangerous is what they say. When you go for that first solo. I remember my heart was beating in my mouth was dry. I cant believe im about ready to fly this airplane by myself. How you can overcome your fear, how you can take off like i did that day and it wasnt sure they really could do it. But my instructors lead to me and others before me, so picked up the collar and i took off. And i had an amazing solo flight. I was able to push to my fear. And everything in life. Anytime you have here to almost paralyze you, do the thing that youre afraid of. It doesnt matter if it is taking often of plane. It is matter whatever is holding you back. Senator euro one of the top graduates in your class. Did that open up all opportunities for you. Is a lot of highcaliber people go to my military academy and i wanted to be a pilot. I was dealing with this height thing that was holding me back. I was very focused on Pilot Training. And as i was getting delayed and derail i was offered his scholarship to go to harvard. So that was an amazing opportunity to be in 1988 in 1990, so into the Kennedy School of government and got a masters in Public Policy over the years the glass wall came down and Setting International was just an amazing opportunity for me and at time i was just trying to buy time to get my pilot cleared so i can go to Pilot Training would an amazing educational experience i had and to include summer internship at nato political headquarters and internship in the pentagon my second year. Sen. Martha mcsally and then later on, i was given the opportunity to get another masters degree. What an incredible chance i had is this middleclass whippersnapper. Just try to make a difference in the world and do something meaningful with my life. But the military can be these opportunities to get a good education on the fly and command women in combat. So those doors were open because i was working hard and excelling where i was. Even though there were restrictions on me. My lesson is dont have a chip on your shoulder. Keep excelling and you never know when the opportunity might come. Host will one of the routes your life you described as a quote, team 37 in del rio. What does that mean. Sen. Martha mcsally as many of us can have dreams like i did and many can relate to this right now in 2020. Many plans were derailed. Because of this pandemic but it took a route because it still didnt change the law. It wasnt fair because i even graduated higher than others who performed less than me. He still couldnt find because i was a girl. So flowing the team 37, it was a grand job to give me the opportunity, there often putting dangerous situations. Less important work. It but people usually graduating there didnt take it but i thought it was a chance for me to keep building my airman ship, keep excelling, keep growing in my experience as a pilot and keep the door open. If they change the law and the policy while the law was changed at that point with the policy was not. So i felt like is going to happen soon and i would be ready and leaning forward in building my experience printed and its exactly what happened in the door opened and i was in the right place at the right time with the right experience. So encourage the readers what is your t37 to rio. I do not been derailed initially it would not have been in this position to actually be the first woman to fly in combat. So sometimes you cant see that a detour is actually taking you on your path to your destiny and that was my experience. Host what is a t 37. Sen. Martha mcsally it is a low trainer claim. No longer flying. His bill like that in the 60s in a sidebyside so you have the student and the Instructor Pilot its very maneuverable. In in the First Six Months every pilot learned how to fly in a t37. Host how many women were in your graduating class at the air force academy. Sen. Martha mcsally about a thousand cadets and i was in the ninth class with women. Think we were at about 10 percent at that time. Right around 100. Host from your book, dare to flight, many young women in a male dominated environment and learn to succeed by being one of the guys. Sen. Martha mcsally i think a lot of women can relate to this pretty was not necessarily a choice. The guys in the older brothers and one older sister. So it had a fight for my food as a kid. But even though there was an environment where everybody was sort of looking at us and at how we are going to perform. There were so a lot of naysayers about women and being at the military academy. We had to prove ourselves. And it is sometimes james peoples minds one at a time. So often times you would think that woman often would Work Together but many women can relate to this in a male dominated field printed you feel like you were on her own. And you just wanted to show that you are a different patriot. Like you wanted to serve just like them. Just be one of the guys blend and, doubly sticking out in anyway. Just do your job and do it well improve that you belong and prove you can be a patriot. Host was a good path. Sen. Martha mcsally well, it was a path that i took when i was young. You cannot look back with the wisdom in your 50s to the decisions you made as a teenager. I feel like at the time in that environment, it allowed me to succeed, and allowed me to change a lot of peoples minds to prove that women did belong sidebysidsite survey and wereo we picked the best man for the job even if she is a woman. Where meritbased society. So they can the opportunity to open up peoples eyes well focusing on performance. How well are you excelling those things that are objective. Thus the most important thing in ensuring the people see that we long serving alongside of you. Host senator mcsally, there were several times and you pushed back rather strongly as you described in dare to flight including insomnia arabia. When is that. Sen. Martha mcsally this was right after we train a mission fighter. I was still trying to prove that we belong. Any woman had been on and fighters in a mark the duty desk and saw a picture but young woman in saudi arabia, the muslim down and headscarf. First i thought it was a local woman and that i saw this is the appropriate way to where the headscarf and thought what is that. And it just gripped me that it was wrong. I will be having our u. S. Service women wear muslim garb like that when they were deployed. And i was young captain. But i just felt this deep conviction that it was wrong. So i started looking into what this come from and why were they doing it. Little did i know that i couldve just walked by the problem. This one lesson that i have the book. Dont walk by a problem. Even though it didnt apply to me, i looked into it to see chris is coming from. Why are they doing this was his pilot. It is stand up and says rohan it needs to change in. And little did i know, eight years and, in that journey would years later, nate me over to saudi arabia and telling me to sit in the backseat of the car. Telling me it was to life and habits Service Woman claiming as a wife and several divorce or fellow serviceman if we were off base. I couldnt believe it. Soy moving down the chain of command for many years trying to get this changed. I share this into chapters because its a long story of one person setting up to make a difference in and the secretary of defense, and working through legislation again never wouldve asked for this but i would do it again. Because it was against our values, and i believe against our constitution. Using the taxfree money to buy this garb. It did not make any sense. In the end, i won this battle. But it was not an easy one pretty dont just wake up and say im going to do this today. Is not good career. Not a good career move. Im going to share some of my lessons print jobs walk by a problem. If you think something is wrong, do something about it printed stand your ground, continue to look for ways to make a difference. Even if it comes at a personal cost, i was inside saudi Arabia Lester driving park wearing western it was the ultimate closure for me on that very long battle. Host the battle began also with the pair of sweatpants and interview asking the public question to secretary william. Sen. Martha mcsally it did. My days employed, they were making elsewhere this all of the time, on base, whatever the temperature was outside and when youre trying to exercise which switches need to do to stay fit. It is just another ridiculous policy elevated cultural sensitivity run amok primary use markets are doing this girl people. Something irritated by that double standard inchoate. And ultimately had to make a decision what i was going to speak up. No weather is just going to be silent and do what was best for me. That was not an easy decision. I just try to keep my head down until the women below. Blessing that would do is raise a womens issue. Were still transitioning into being a fighter. As sure the story in the book, the line that really gets me, can it be that you are put in this position for such a time as this. I think that is a message for everybody who is listening, watching, wherever you are. We feel strongly about making a difference and not walking by problem, can you be that you are put in this position such a time as this and you are the one to speak out and youre the one is going to take the risk and make a difference. That was my journey over the state years. Host one of the continual themes in your book is faith. Sen. Martha mcsally i grew up in a family of faith printed going to church each week it wasnt personal for me as a kid. And that kind of connection printed my parents were people of faith and i later heard that letters from friends of my dads, when he was in college, he was in his knees every night praying to god. My dad died when i was 12, is really angry at god because understandable. I was asking a lot of questions that i didnt ask as a 12 yearold is stable middleclass family. And just share my roth journey. As a roth journey of going to that grief and going through some of their very difficult experiences in my life did but finding in the darkness, fighting my ow