Author which is out this week. There be a link at the bottom of your screen and i know most if youve already to preorder the book, thank you so much. But if you want to purchase your copy, its right on the screen. He isnt off at columnist for the new york times. Hes currently a commentator on news hour and all Things Considered with the meet the press, hes the author of several books. Most recently the Second Mountain a quest for moral lif life. Both of which were near times bestsellers for going to hand it over to them in just a Second Period after a couple minutes were going to open this up to q a. So if you have a question you can go ahead and write in your question in the ask the question box which is of the bottom of your screen. So without further ado, rabbi jonathan and david brooks but thank you so much. Host david really didnt . I will do some questions in a backandforth conversation. I was like to start out with the most broad first question. And that is, you have written 30 books. This is a person called morality, what took you so long . [laughter] some sense morality is a subject of all of your books. But why, what subject in this broad topic grabs you right now . Guest what happened, david . What happened is for the first time i became aware of the extent to waste western liberal democracies, america especially had just lost the plot. It seemed to me that the kind of free societies that were primed and conceived by john milton and john locke on the 17h century and by washington and jefferson and the who wrote the federalist papers, the more like glee, they understood that you could not have a free society. That was not also a moral society. A society which people accepted collective responsibility for the common good. In which they say in effect we are all in this together. That was an absolute gift. And then i started looking at the weird things that were happening in britain and america. The loneliness, the isolation, the depression the economics the identity politics. The fake news in the post truth and they cancel culture and the socalled freedom and universities. All of really, really horrendous phenomenon. I was pretty sure these were not unique phenomenon. They were all symptoms of a single thing that has happened to us. What i call Cultural Climate change. Somehow or another, in the 60s, 80s, 90s we decided to outsource morality. To the market on the one hand, what shall i do . What can i buy . What can i afford . And the consequences of my choices i outsource those to the state. If i make bad choices, and the state will step in and cure me of my addiction or obesity or whatever it is. So i do not need to worry about personal responsibility. I dont need to worry that there may be certain things i can do, that i should not do. That means we have a society built on two arenas of competition. Competition for wealth, and competition for power. We have lost the arena of cooperation that used to be the moral bonds. Always i grew up in a moral britain in the 1960s, very moral britain. And all the sudden, i just noticed it had gone. Sue and i would say, Teach College sometimes. And i dose is not my students are bad people but they have not been given a moral vocabulary. Even the words and if you ask what the word sin means, you cannot get a straight answer from people they dont have any conception of how to use that word or even character. Im so comic is one explanation, i dont know if its yours, is of course avoid said markets markets in stateless were hundreds of years. But they were counterbalanced by the soft morals and culture. In the u. S. I guess the uk the cult mainline protestant is a period its a slow weathering of religious institutions and their influence that is not been replaced by anything. Is that your basic interpretation . Guest thats absolute correct. I know in the states have been conscious of the Fastest Growing religious affiliation is none. 30 of young people identify as of no faith. But even the states is far, far more religious than britain which is almost completely secular. Religion does not have a voice, it does not have a presence. And religion was the basis of that morality. That was so very british. Its an astonishing thing when you go back and read george in the 40s talks about britain as a gentle crowd. [laughter] , peoples manners. You know all those, who is a gentleman thief i cannot number what his name was. I was once in israel. There was someone who did not like the british very much. But it said to me with a little wistful smile,. [inaudible] i took it for granted that brits are gentlemen. Or they are ladies. And of course not always in the way in that jane austin portrayed them. But all of them had a very strong moral sense. George elliott had a strong moral sense. Dh lawrence did in so on. And so somehow or another, that was just part of the culture in which i grew up. It was based on the church. You know, if there was one thing people in britain did, it was that they sat around the table midday on sunday. And they had their sunday lunch. Today, only a small minority of people in britain actually have a dining table. You know, they take something out of the freezer, they stick it in the microwave they put on their lap and sit and watch television. So there is no sunday anymore. Oddly enough, it was all people it was Margaret Thatcher who deregulated sunday. I argued against it greatly. I said this is the one noncommercial day of the week. It is wholly time, it is very important. Its the one time that we all enter on equal terms. Rich and poor it doesnt matter. One sunday was deregulated, sunday at lunch got lost, send a service got lost, the church got lost, and morality got lost. Think it was the rabbi who called the sabbath the cathedral in time. Sanctuary. Host now i get asked this question all the time. Im just curious to know your answer. And the question is can you be good without god . And i doubt religion is coming back anytime soon. , and the way it used to be. But can a culture rebuild a secular morality that really has binding power . Guest yes it can. I dont know if you noticed but i hold religion very, very low profile in the book. Host i did notice. Guest quite deliberately. I did not want to imply the have to be religious to be moral. And didnt did not want to alienate every secular leader of the book. First of all we know that there is something very natural about being moral. Write a wonderful book called the social animal. So you know the whole story about how we have that capacity to form groups, all of which is based on altruism. Its based on working for the good of the group. Even fruit bats are altruistic. He finds in great showing with others because you expect others to share with them when the time comes. To number one its natural to be moral. Number two, it is very easy to get people to be moral. In the way to do so is to empower them. So for instance, you had a fantastic program, you probably still do call teach for america. High flyers who dedicated a couple of years to teaching in schools. That needed an extra lift. I had the privilege actually of persuading when he was Prime Minister to introduce the same project into britain. Now you spend two years of your life working for others and a self sacrificial mode. You are not just going to lift them, they are going to lift you. You are going to be a different person for the rest of your lif life. But weve not necessarily done is to find ways of empowering young people to serve others. In the book you make great emphasis on time which is fascinating to me. And also unjustly social see beds of moral behavior. When the things ive noticed is that there has been some sort of moral shift in the last few years, maybe ten, 1520 years ago, a sociologist named alan wolf published a book called moral freedom. He went on with the u. S. And ask people with their morality was. And basically found individualized morale too, make my own morality i do not judge others. He was describing easygoing relativism is criticized before, but wolf was craving it and easygoing morality. Now, when you go on campus, there is definitely a morality. It is not easy going and its not nonjudgmental, it is extremely judgmental. Somehow that moral freedom has given way to sort of moral, almost intolerance. Do you see that change . What kind of explains that . You talked about multiculturalism in the book, which seems to be a peace of it. Guest multiculturalism is a peace of it. Multiculturalism directly destroyed the conflict of the national culture. It automatically destroyed the concept of a national morality. But one of the things that happened, not just multiculturalism, but the relativism that came in all of the rest of it which was the philosophy of 1960s, is that we had lost any kind of vocabulary. It was a. J. Ayre who said this is good means i like this. And, you cannot argue over tast taste. The end result was that morality was rendered and articulate. Charles taylor wrote a book, a little book called the ethics and inarticulate sleep. So in the end, young people today will feel very passionately about certain things, having no capacity, no common sense to argue rationally and persuade others. What you can do is result of force. Now that i think is horrendous actually. That is the beginning of the end of freedom. Host they do have a very strong sense of idealism and morality is right and wrong. It is based on something. And obviously the orientation for justice is a very strong orientation. It has a real moral content. Yeah. I have occasionally looked at my nieces and nephews in israel. And you are the first thing an israeli child says, at age three, four,. [inaudible] its not fair. This is the first thing in the child anywhere says. Read just babies. Even very, very Young Children have a sense of fairness. And fairness is, the most basic of all moral emotions. Any society that is systemically unfair to any group within it, is going to generate the righteous indignation of virtually anyone who cares. And in that sense, i am completely with students. So its more of the method that you find troubling . Or the shutting down . Guest well morale t is about the exercise of freedom. Youve written about this beautifully. Its about choice its about responsibility. You cant actually make someone good by forcing them to be good. And that of course is what the woke movement is trying to do with trying to force them to be good without any choice in the matter. And of course a great many people have understandings of the issues feel completely inhibited. And we have had very serious reports. Just a month ago when british universities in which a great number of students, around 80 feel inhibited and not able to say what they really feel. And i know that is true in some campuses here in america. So, the way to engage people morally is, come let us reason together. That is what the prophets of israel did. They were quite angry. But they did not say listen to me or else, they said let us reason together. And do you feel like in the prophetic role these days, do you feel society is badly, morally off the rails . Or its not so much . I think it is searching for direction to be honest with you. I think we have failed society. We have not had enough people. Youve been quite brilliant on this. But we have not had enough people talking the talk, walking the walk. And it really can be done, you know. Any story. I used to set up these award schemes to young people to show our community what our young people could do. Too actually help people. Some of the things we did work totally in absolute extraordinary. A young girl brought up a deaf and dumb parents and kids who are going out and spending endless hours with the elderly and so on. It was a hero system. It was not just to make heroes of them but to educate our community as to what is a good life for what you would call the eulogy virtues. Trying to make those compelling. Host yes. Let me play the role of a 25 year old which is going to horrify all the 25 year old in the audience. Doing good work, doing teach for america, with the elderlys all noble. We live in societies that are systemically screwed up in very fundamental ways, both in the inequality and racial inequity they quality and foster. Therefore the task of morality these days is disruption. It is built around the phrase no justice, no peace which we have heard every rally youve ever been too. And therefore the presumption is we need to disrupt in order to build justice. And that is a morality of disruption. And then you wonder how much disorder do we really need in order to create justice . Or does that undermine justice . Were really having a debate on how much disruption is moral. Given the circumstances of widespread inequality and racial injustice. Guest thats a very, very, very good point. Absolutely no doubt we will not write the inequities right now. We are all expected there to be some reform of the banking system. Some reform of ceo pay after the financial collapse of 2008. It didnt happen. In a system is as corrupt today as it was then. Now, the real question you have to ask, as do we have a precedent for disruptive violence . Actually changing things politically. I think what actually change things politically, was a conscience of the leadership. I have no idea what it was like to be there during the great crash and 29. The Great Depression of the 1930s. I had no idea, i have no idea. For me personally, i switch on youtube. In a play that song from that time, buddy can you spare a dim dime. You know, it just tears you apart. And somehow, fdr comes along, and understands the conscience information and does what he does. I was very difficult for him to pull the nation out of a recession is actually very difficult. Ive had not been for the war, when he achieved it . I dont know. It does seem to me that politicians come along with a conscience. And they make a difference. You know, in many ways, lbj was a very difficult man. And heaven knows and all of the rest of it was a terrible stain on his time. But you read his inaugural on the 20th of january, 1965, this declaration of faith in is to be an american. Its about the american covenant that i find extraordinary prehes a politician that didnt happen. And to my mind the one that did not happen but i most regret, was robert f kennedy. I really thought these things through. Robert f kennedy was able to breach the color gap through his friendship with Martin Luther king they were both assassinated, in the same year. We need that kind of conscience back into politics. Its in greatest need right now because not sure violence always helps those people who instigated. Host it would be undiplomatic of me to it mention the American Revolution was a violent step is to establish my countrys founders thought were justice. Host they do awfully well. [laughter] we went let me go into a little of what is in the back you say you dont really make this a plea for religious faith. You dont find faith is necessary for goodness. Im always struck by people spend a lot of time talking about virtue and goodness. Youd think they would be a lot better than they are given how much they talk about it. They are not much better than the average. But you emerge, not reemerged from a jewish tradition. What features of that jewish tradition prepare you to think in this way . But there is a concept, lovingkindness, what are the moral for you personally are the animating moral principles or stories that really have formed the way you think about these . Guest read to the book of deuteronomy. And you will see moses saying one very simple thing. A society flourishes if it is a moral society. If it pursues justice. If it loves the stranger. If it feeds the poor. If it cares for the widowed, the orphaned and so on. All else, forget about. The countrys strength is not military, its not political its not demographic. It is not economic. It is moral. That message is taken up all the way through the literature. Elisha, amos, zack, jeremiah, the most impassioned moral literature in existence. Absolutely and totally extraordinary. I think it is judaisms great truth. And it emerge from the experience of being slaves in egypt. You know what it feels like to be a slave. So dont allow other people to be slaves. You know what the unleavened bread of affliction taste like so dont afflict others. You know the bitter herbs of slavery, so dont allow other people to eat bitterness. I saw this although through my childhood. My grandmother, who could not read or write came from russia , had a wine shop in the east end. In yes she sold some wine, you know, but twice year before the yearend and passover passover shoe give out free wine to everyone in the east end. When anyone came into by wine, she would never allow them to buy wine, she would sit them down, she would pour them out a little bit, should get them to drink and then she would find out. The economic circumstances with the police with the home office and she was quietly a fixer i think an awful lot of jews in their childhood, remember that sort of sense of moral responsibility of being there to help others. As definitive as being jewish was. Host you are a communitarian person and you certainly get that sense of peoplehood down to the centuries through judaism. The other thing you get, my favorite definition of the commitment is falling in love with something in the building a structural behavior around it when love falters. And that jews love god with their kosher rules to keep you in line. There are blessings that you say on almost any occasion. And so, i wonder if those guardrails, those habits, those norms, all of the rituals all of the lighting of candles is necessary to structure a moral life . Solve their rules. Without those structures and disciplines the influence of the market sort of take over. Take over the everyday life. So you say no jewish english philosopher, he was an atheist wrote a book called religion for atheists. And he says, the day of atonement is so good that it is a chain and only happens once a year. Which is a decidedly eccentric thing to say because it is a 25 hour fast and its quite arduous. Why does he say this . Because he says we all know that there are people we should apologize to. But without a date in the diary, we would never get around to it. So what i think is understudied, almost completely neglected and books on ethics is the connection between ethics and ritual. You know, making a habit of doing certain things. You are jewish and about to pray on a weekday, the first thing you do is you give some money to charity. The habit you do it six days a week. So ritual is really important. Weve a little loss appears back even something as small as on the doorpost it marks a transition from one room to another. the lifecycle moments. Become so much richer when they are accompanied by the secretion of thousands of years of ritual, when elaine and i got married all those years ago, marriages and somehow the way things were done in israel in the way that he did things kind of taken over in their spiritual and the result is you are not moving from one empty space