In about 15 minutes, President Trump pulled the Campaign Rally with voters and supporters in des moines, iowa. A portion of washington journal on Election Security. We are back with david, a Global Fellow Wilson Center and author of Great America russia in 100 years of electoral interference. Here to discuss the book on the history of russias electoral affairs. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Im excited to be here. What prompted you to write this book . I was alarmed when, after 2016, so many commentators and analysts tweeted interference in the 2016 election as unprecedented somehow. To me, when something is treated as unprecedented, it suggests theres no historye behind it suggesting its easy to create myths and lies about something so what i do is restore history to the subject and devote the dangerous myth that this is all combined to the 2016 election. Soviet Union Interference election, the cia and during the cold war, russia is and is interfering all over the world today and only then joy examined 2016 and aftermath because russia is actively interfering in the 2020 election and to me, by restoring that history to public discourse, i appreciate the fact that this is not all new. We can prepare for and defend against the threat in a more effective and comprehensive way. So what is new about russia is doing . What are they doing that theyve always done . What is new here . I would say what is not new is the idea of russia interfering in a u. S. Election. As ier detail in the book, russa targeted, soviet union targeted, 1960, 75th and 84 elections to work against republicans. Id say what is also not new are the ideasas behind what russia s doing such as spreading w propaganda across the vulnerable News Platform for releasing private information about public figures or even stuffing ballot boxes for the physically or digitally. What is new is because of the internet, they turbocharge the ideas and because of the internet, they are able to penetrate america at scale which the soviet union struggled to do and what is also new as they are able to pursue two types of interference in propaganda as they did 60 but also penetrating our Voting System as they also did during the 2016 election. With what you know about what russia has been doing in the past, and is doing now, what concerns you the most about the upcoming 2020 election . I would say a couple things on my mind. The first, there are always twoi ways to interfere in an election for the 19242020 either by mutilating people, Public Opinion or trying to affect actual ballots so we know now, russia is manipulating Public Opinion across social media and releasing information that microsoft says is trying to steal. What most concerns me is linking from russians perspective, what is our greatest phone ability right now . Trying to assess where we are weak and unusually weak around uae actual voting process because theres so much as a result of the coronavirus of this election will proceed fairly, the voting process is mistrusted in the president alleging it is rigged so from russians perspective, which is tearing down american democracy to disrupt, discredit delegitimize our election process, you can either spread misinformation for seek to sabotage our system to sell worked out, you can perhaps get return based on low effort based on how much doubt already exist to hold a stable election this fall. Its remind our viewers they can participate in this conversation. We open up regular lines, republicans, 2,027,488,001 democrats, 2,027,488,000. Independence, your independent 2027488002 and you can always exit to 20274 we are always on social media on twitter and cspanwj and facebook and facebook. Com cspan. We already have a question from a social media follower to answer is. Maybe the expert in from the tell us what he means by interference as a russian guy facing difference . Of the cracking into ballot boxes . I would say for me, but i study and qualify into the subject is something known as, electoral strength and to qualify, you have to meet specific qualifications. You had to be covered. The hand of your involvement has to be hidden. If your public endorsement, that does not count but if russia steals and leaks documents through a third party, thereby hiding his hand, youre in the bargain. The second is electoral and for something to be electoral, you have to be targeting and electoral process, a boat determining the leader of your country. If youre just trying to get Public Opinion in the country were influencingte legislation o be, that still matters, but is another operation but it is not in electoral operation. Finally, interference meanss yor deploymenton after measures were not just watching collecting intelligence, normatively do to change. I do find interference as a in an effort to manipulate the democrat of succession and as i found my research, that phenomena undermines relations the past century or so and continues our threat in our democracy right now. This week on cbs, National Security advisor, rob obrien spoke about his recent discussion with russianan officials in geneva and the message he delivered of the upcomingss election. I think our adversaries know the u. S. Government is that we are protecting the american people. One of the reasons i went is to let him know there would be no tolerance for any interference with our election day, boating, vote tallies and demand that russia not engage in that sort of thing. Russians have committed in doing so so as president reagan said in President Trump often says, his trust and verify so we will keep an eye on it the russians did commit to not interfering in the elections and we will see what happens. President putins right hand person. I want you to react to what he said and then what is the actual w act that they have to have these discussions say about what russia plans to do in this upcoming election . It is nice for russia to say they wont nia interfere in the0 election but the problem is, they are actually interfering right now. The current fbi director and osha, russia is interviewing the election, we seen its operation unfolding already across social media other investors of its ongoing election so on the one hand, russia denied interfering in the 2020 2016 election. They are denying the 2020 election. Also denied interfering in the sixth election when there is the soviet union and confronted by an Administration Official before the november election then so on the one hand, i would not pay too much to russias denials because they dont they are not by thes. Facts but on te other hand, it think its a message, i think there is no downside saying they would interview. I wish the president would communicate that message directly to the russian president rather than either exist or doesnt actually helping from russia as he did before the 2016 election and axing about the email. On the one hand, helpful message and on the other hand, recognize they are interfering right now while mr. Obrien seems to be talking about whether russia would vote tallies, as i said, electoral interference can include manipulate people or actual votes and defending an election in both. I know your focus is on russia but are there other countries of concern like china . Iran . Is going on with those countries . I would say to date, the history of interbrand has primarily been a russian and soviet tradition and an american tradition. Id say beyond that, no country has been on back in systemic continuous sustained way. With that said, russias 2016 operation became so vile and drawing so much attention that i wonder whether that can be turning in terms of other states imitating russia so i wouldnt like them to be the pioneer here, neither would be justified by the history or even their current objectives. Id say they probably are making calculations about whether to try to follow the lead of russia. However, i also say this is a global problem so russia is interviewing on a global basis because they have a global strategy to do so which is to support authoritarian minded and it is undermining their systems. I interviewed the president of russia intelligence trying to assassinate the former president of columbia who said his environment is under siege or got reports of such a russian actress on the one hand, russia has a global basis for doing this but back it up against china or iran who need a global reason to interfere on a global basis, i do not believe they do so you may see them interfering in specific collections and china and maybe taiwan for australia but i expect russia to be at the front in terms of its pertinent and aggressiveness in seeking to interfere in our electoral processes. There has been a lot of talk about packing the election. And whether your wonder where the 2020 elections will be secure. I am here today to tell you that my confidence in the security has never been higher. That is because of it all nation on precedent in Election Security effort over the last several years. We are focused on securing the nations Critical Infrastructure and the services in our society. That pretty clearly includes the election system. Since 2017, we have a working with state and local Election Officials just for this moment. First, we pulled together the Election Community across all 50 states to territories in d. C. To work towards a common purpose of protecting 2020. Second, we help make the election systems across the country secure and resilient as possible. And third, we worked to increase voting processes including the vote itself. This year, more than 90 of votes cast on a paper record print that is a great thing. Because Election Officials can check the receipt and make sure the count is right. How much more prepared is the u. S. To fight against any type of foreign interference in this upcoming election . So i would say again, lets draw an important distinction. Eight, by the way that video watch the whole thing when it came out is very helpful. I would say the first type of interference is to influence voters. Seven email spread disinformation across social media to manipulate Public Opinion. He was not talking about that at all. When he was talking about was very specific form of interference which is a breaching and manipulating our actual election infrastructure. And it makes sense that is his focus not only because of his job. But also because of where we were four years ago. Wheres i revealed my book, i interviewed 26 former advisers to obama. What i found is the imperative and the captivation was a second type of interference. Was that russia going to affect our systems . John brennan for instance told me that russia had the capability to alter vote tallies of u. S. Citizens to the point were on election day it fell apart i discovered the white house and dhs were running secret bracing for Cyber Attacks against our infrastructure. So i would say that in that aftermath, even though no such attack manifested itself, i think at the bare minimum we need to be securing or infrastructure. Im glad that is the focus for to think of challenges that is that states and localities ultimately have the final say over what kind of election systems they are running. Im glad that dhs i worry is someone else in that video said that foreign actors are seeking to gain access to our election infrastructure. We have to be resolute in protecting our systems. Whats go to our collars and with join the conversation lets start from and who is calling from northfield, root california on the republican line. Caller high good morning thanks for taking my call. First of all i want to ask you, you say russia. Okay, i dont think it is a putin interfering in the elections, i think it is ukraine it is more interfering in our elections. I really believe in 2016 they were interfering and they wanted hillary because there are incidents in new york for example, this lady went to vote and she kept voting for trump. Okay, it kept coming up hillary. Theres so much voter fraud on the democrat side. It is pathetic. I would like to tell you a stor story. My thing is if they are interfering, i think it is ukraine, and i think biden and his son. And they have a lot to do with it. Their dealings with ukraine. We need to get trump back in. I cannot stress this enough. Go ahead and ask. Short think every much for the question but i was its very important to correct unfortunately the myth that ukraine was the perpetrator her here. I think the problem we have as a democracy is before you are able to defend your election you have to know with the backs or we can all agree on that. The backs have been established. At least for 2016 that russia, by the orders of Vladimir Putin, based on the consensus of our u. S. Intelligence community. He did interfere in the 2016 election to help donald trump, hurt Hillary Clinton and disrupt the democracy buried to do so russia spread propaganda through social through the Internet Research agency which is based in st. Petersburg and reached over 100 millions americans online print Russian Military intelligence and agency and on gr you have to release emails from the Democratic National committee and john podesta bright and that the intelligence probe are intelligent systems. Those the facts we should talk about how to defend against not only russia but by any country to interfere covertly in our elections moving forward whether it be to help a democrat or a republican, it does not matter but we should be as resolute against defending those operations as ever were seeking to defend our democracy. But to do so we have to live the russian effort four years ago that space reports released by the scent and transcendent by the muller investigation the u. S. Intelligence community is not only determine, but actually for going the weeds of those documents is extraordinary publicly Available Evidence as to what exactly happened. And what we can learn from it. Civic one of our social media followers has another question for you david. They want to know generally, do you believe russian interference is solicited by american politicians . Guest i would say that actually the tradition of american politics at the president ial level before 2016 was the opposite. Where in 1960 for instance soviet ambassador on instruction from the leader of the soviet union itself approached analyte stevenson who is a leading democrat and politician of the day. And offered in a closeddoor meeting to help them win the presidency. And stephenson more or less said get the hell away from me i am what nothing more to do at this. The idea being he would rather lose if he ran on his own if you ran with foreign help with the same with ambassador on orders from moscow by his own recollection and memoirs revealed that he approached Hubert Humphrey who was the sitting Vice President at the time to try to find his campaign for the presidency to work against Richard Nixon. And Hubert Humphrey then said, prohibited the conversation wanted nothing to do with it. So i hope that tradition will resurface because i believe american politicians if you are democrat or republican it does not matter if you believe in the sovereignty of our democracy you should believe in the independence of our elections and have no business soliciting from any foreign actor in our electoral processes. Because something that just came to the forefront in my research is the soviet union interfered to destroy it Richard Nixon a republican. It interfered in the 76 and 84 election to destroy Ronald Reagan a republican. It happens russia wants to help a republican. But russia is actors or choose our leaders for us. To advertise our democracy and undermine the viability of the democratic model as a viable model of governance. That should defend an alarm all americans do regardless of their public loyalties. You said earlier in an interview this year the idea of interference is not just changing ballots. But to legitimize the entire process itself part im going to read your quote you what you talk little bit more about it. We should be ready for there to be some sort of plan here to degrade, disrupt our democracy by delegitimizing the outcome of the election. What putin is after here is chaos, is dysfunction, its corrupting democracy. Trump has a means to the end but theres other ways of achieving it. One of which is just making americas wonder whether their election was fair at all. Talk a little bit about that. Civic siegrist myself. The russian objective here, you have to look globally. Because donald trump can be distracting. Our current politics can be distracting. Lets think about what the strategy is overall. Which is to support candidates on the left or right that will help them to tear down democratic systems. To corrupt democratic systems from within to discredit and to grade the democratic model. Vladimir putin believes that serves the strategic objective. Domestically it shows his own people that the democratic model is flawed, is not desirable for they dont really want that. From a global perspective divides democracies from one another, pulls them away from the International Institution that have typically underpinned American Power in the world. In the by targeting america itself by delegitimizing our democracy it shows the world how vulnerable the worlds most powerful democracy is to subversion. It makes us more divided. And it undermines our ability to lead abroad. So Latimer Putin has many benefits to the strategy but hes executing it aggressively. I would just remind folks is something i discovered in my research for instance is russia started its interference operation against us in 2014. Before donald trump announced his campaign. Russian tended to get to new its operation had doubled trump lawton 2016 as detailed in m