President elect harris. The election sent a clear message. Its time to stop relitigating issues mr. Mccabe . Can you hear me now . Hello . Yes. Are you with us . Yes, sir. Thank you. I apologize. Any time you feel like you need a break, you just let me know. I apologize, its been over two hours, i apologize for not remembering that. So senator hirono . Thank you, mr. Chairman. Id like to associate myself with the comments made by colleague senator durbin and others on the democratic side on why we are here for the fourth time to go over ground covered especially by the Inspector Generals 440 page report. The witness was asked questions about Text Messages between peter strzok and lisa page when its clear they did not impact the validity of the russian investigation. Yet when we have real facts about National Security concerns such as President Trump calling the president of ukraine to shake him down to help his Reelection Campaign, my republican colleagues dont think thats a big deal. I can understand why President Trump wanted to get dirt on his potential political opponent, especially as joe biden, in fact, defeated President Trump decisively, a fact that many of my republican colleagues have yet to be able to acknowledge. And so, we are here. For the fourth time for many more hours of hearings on grounds that weve already covered, instead of dealing with the real questions of the day. So for this witness, you were asked by senator blumenthal about the recognized danger of White Supremacists. I just want to reiterate because i think it is very important for our country to understand the dangers posed by these persons. So in september 2020, fbi director wray warned that White Supremacy is one of the biggest domestic terrorism threats these reports around the same time indicated that the department of Homeland Security had reached a similar conclusion that White Supremacists are the deadliest domestic Terror Threat facing the country. Id like to ask you again, given your extensive experience in Counter Terrorism issues, do you believe the threat posed by White Supremacists is a serious concern . Well, senator, i know that it is a serious concern. And i certainly take director wrays assessment that it is the most serious concern on the counterterrorism side that we face right now. It makes a lot of sense in light of the fact that as our foreign terrorist targets appear to be in a state of disorganization and recruitment in this country seems to have tailed off a bit, i dont have access to classified information but seems that way, theres no question that the domestic terrorist scene has not tailed off only increased over the years. The words used by the president seems to fan those flames of domestic terrorism activities. Thats correct. I believe you responded that way. Yes. Before the election, President Trump and attorney general bill barr repeatedly made false claims of mail in voter fraud. In september 2020, director wray testified before the senate committee, that we have not seen historically any kind of coordinated voter fraud in a major election, whether by mail or otherwise. Now that millions of americans have voted, without evidence of fraud, President Trump and the republicans have refused to recognize the results of the election and instead they have gone to court many times at this point, losing i think theyve lost every one of these cases to prevent validly cast votes from being counted. And President Trump continues to falsely claim he has won the election with absolutely no evidence. Given your sense of experience at the fbi, are you aware of any evidence indicating that widespread mailin voter fraud is a problem in our country . I am not aware of any information to that effect. Director wrays assessment is consistent with my own experience in the fbi that ive never seen information that would substantiate a widespread effort at voter fraud. While my republican colleagues are very busy talking about how the president has a right to go to court, you know, that still puts the burden of proving that there is fraud on him, and so far hes been losing at every turn. So just because one has a right to go to court does not make it right to go to court. And one would hope that the president would have figured that out by now, but apparently not. When you mention, in your opening, that it was an honor and a privilege to work for the fbi, there are concerns from many of us about the politicizing of the fbi and the doj. Since taking office, President Trump has repeatedly called on the Justice Department, ie at his many rallies where they chant lock her up, lock him up, or whatever it is, to investigate his political opponents and leaned on attorney general barr to treat allies more favorably, for example under attorney general barr the Justice Department reversed a sentencing recommendation for trump ally roger stone. Causing all four career prosecutors to withdraw from the case in protest. You served at the fbi for 21 years. In your memory before President Trump how many times has the president called for investigation or arrest of political opponents to aid him in his Reelection Campaign . I have never. Not in my experience. Ive never seen that before. And june 2022 Justice Department career lawyers testified before the house about how political appointees intervened in critical and nhs cases to advance the personal interests of President Trump. What do you think it says about the severity about the politicizing of the Justice Department that two lawyers came before the congress to testify and four career prosecutors made the move of withdrawing from the roger stone case . As i said, senator, career prosecutors dont walk away from cases that they believe in and cases that theyve spent a lot of time and effort trying to move forward. So when you have any member of the department of justice who feels compelled to resign from a case or from the department for ethical reasons, thats a very concerning thing. When you have fouronone case resign, i think its the sort of thing we cant possibly ignore. Its quite extraordinary. I would like at this point to commend all of the career doj people, including, of course, all the people at the fbi for doing the jobs that theyre supposed to be doing and not making political decisions. We know that hate crimes have gone up, especially with the president calling the virus the china virus, the wuhan virus, members of this administration have also referred to it as kung flu. So there has been, documented, increase in hate crimes. Given your extensive experience, do you think the fbi and Justice Department are doing enough to address hate crimes in our country, including against asianamericans and pacific islanders. Do you know of any prosecution by the doj on any of these hate crimes . Im not aware of recent prosecutions of hate crimes. I dont have access to all the information that the fbi or doj has. So i cant speak to whether theyre doing that work or not. It certainly seems those sort of incidents just from what i hear in open source reporting seem to be on the rise. And i would expect that the bureau and doj should be looking at those things very closely. I should hope so. So far i dont know of any indictments coming down on these cases. I believe my time is up. Thank you mr. Chairman. Thank you mr. Mccabe. Thank you senator. I think we have senator holly on the line but i have a brief inquiry here. Mr. Mccabe what is the defensive briefing . Defensive briefing is typically when we reach out to an individual who we think might be the subject of some sort of, you know, malign activity from a Foreign Government or a foreign power and try to, you know, make them aware of the threats that they might come across. An example would be, i think, senator feinstein had a staff member that was suspected of being connected to Chinese Intelligence Community and she was briefed about that, is that correct . Would that be an example . That sounds like the sort of situation in which you would get a defensive briefing. She took corrective action by dismissing that person. Was there a defensive briefing given to Hillary Clinton about concerns of her campaign being reached out to or interfered regarding foreign actors . Im not sure, senator. I saw some of the documents on the committees website, seemed to indicate that, but i dont have an independent recollection of that. I can just assure you that she was. There was a suspicion that a Foreign Government may have been trying to aid her campaign. She was briefed about it. Counterintelligence is designed to protect against foreign entities, is that correct . Could you repeat the question. Counterintelligence is designed to protect American Interest against foreign influence, is that correct . Thats right. Theyre designed to mitigate threats to National Security. So like senator feinstein could fire somebody on her staff to mitigate it, is that a good example . That could certainly be one way to mitigate a threat. At any time during the multiple counterintelligence investigations that were conducted against Trump Campaign officials, was there ever a defensive briefing given to President Trump about the concerns you had about mr. George papadopoulos, carter page or anyone else, including general flynn . Not that im aware of. Why . Well, senator, we typically dont provide defensive briefings when we feel that they could run the risk of compromising the investigations that were undertaking. So before we provide a briefing, we try to determine whether or not that briefing will ultimately get communicated back to the target or somehow obstruct our ability to shed some light on whether or not theres actually a threat to National Security. So when it came to George Papadopoulos you never told the Trump Campaign you may have a problem with him . Thats correct. And carter page, you never sat down with President Trump we have concerns about carter page . I do not believe that happened, thats correct. Senator holly . Thank you, mr. Chairman. I want to start by saying that i heard, i think, my democrat colleagues wondering aloud why it is were here today. I have to say i thought it would have been obvious by now, were looking at maybe the biggest scandal in the history of the fbi. Were looking at the use the fbi to lie to the fisa court. So so misrepresent facts, statements and other material to this court that the court had to issue a statement saying that they could not trust the fbi not only in this case but in every other case going forward. Absolutely unbelievable, unprecedented for a court to issue a rebuke of this nature. I have to say the fact that my democratic colleagues want to shrug and move on in the face of this kind of interference, this kind of inappropriate behavior, this abuse of power, which is what it is is extraordinary. The individual we have before us today, has an entire report written by the ig about how he lied repeatedly. So thats why were here. By the way, now that were in the middle of another election. The outcome of which is still disputed and unknown and people are wondering why is it that so Many Americans dont have trust in the electoral process, this is why. This is why. Because weve seen instance after instance of the abuse of the institutions of this country to try to interfere with the voice and the will of we the people. Were looking at it today. Thats what this is about if anybody has any question. Thats what this is about. Lets talk about the lying to the fisa court which the fbi did repeatedly and doj signed off on. Mr. Mccabe let me come to you now. I had something of a personal guest he quest here to find somebody who you will take responsibility for the warrants they signed off on. You signed off on a renewal application for the carter page fisa warrant in june of 2017, isnt that correct . Thats correct. By january of 2017, the fbi identified Christopher Steeles sub source. Thats correct . And they cast doubt on the steele dossier, isnt that correct . I know that now, yes. The fisa renewal application you signed however did not acknowledge any of those facts, isnt that correct . The fisa package that i signed contained the same contained the errors that that are laid out in the ig report. Uhhuh. And by december of 2016. So this is months before the renewal application, the cross fire Hurricane Team knew the primary source of the steele dossier was suspected of being a russian asset, isnt that correct . I dont believe that to be correct. I dont know that to be the case. Your testimony under oath is the cross fire hurricane didnt know the source was potentially a russian agent as of december 2016 . I cant tell you what the members of the team thought about the primary sub source in december of 2016. If youre referring to the recent footnote from the fisa report that was declassified by the attorney general, no, i dont know that they knew that then. I cant say what they knew. The fisa application that you gned contained none of this, though, correct . It contained no new disclosures to the court, none of the information that the fbi new of . It contained nothing to give the course any pause about anything that you previously certified, isnt that correct . Well, i think you need to be we should be specific about no, no. Just answer my question. Did the application that you personally signed did it disclose the interviews back from january of 2017 that you just said that you were aware of, that the fbi was aware of, the oig report details this pages 187, 188, 189 of his report, you can look it up, he had a lot to say about you. You can look up the ig report. They say the fbi knew of the problems Christopher Steeles primary sub source and didnt disclose it to the court, isnt that correct . Yes or no . The ig report, is my understanding, sir, details 17 errors that were present in the paccage mr. Mccabe, answer my question. Did the report that you personally signed. Did it disclose the fbis interviews in january of 2017 . You signed the new application in june of 2017. Did it disclose the interviews casting serious doubt on the primary sub source . Yes or no . We both know the answer is no. But why dont you say it. No, right . It did not disclose serious concerns with the primary sub source. Why didnt it . Why didnt you notify the course of this new information . Is it because you wanted to continue to undermine the election of donald trump . Let me ask you this, didnt you send a text message on june 24, 2016, saying i hope the brexit vote doesnt predict a similar outcome here in november. Why did you id like to answer your question, sir, but im going to need space to get in a complete answer. Why did you answer that question, why did you send that text message . Sir, as you know, i have not bnl able to review my texts. I do not have my texts in front of me here. I requested access to my materials and was denied it. Im not prepared to answer your questions based on my Text Messages. Because you dont recall them . Heres what it says, quote, i hope it, meaning the brexit vote, doesnt predict a similar outcome here in november. End quote. June 24, 2016. Do you deny sending that message . I dont know, sir. I havent seen any of those Text Messages you have no memory of it . Over four years. Id like to give you a complete answer, but im having a hard time when you speak over me, it cuts off my ability to respond. Why dont you answer my question. Do you have no memory of that text message, is that what youre saying of june 24, 2016. I dont remember text message gs i sent in 2016 that i havent seen since then. So yes, i dont have a recollection of Text Messages from four years ago. Very convenient. It would be much less im not done talking. It would be more convenient to review the materials before today. Including you, mr. Mccabe, its really extraordinary. Let me ask you about this text message. Peter strzok sent this to lisa page. I want to believe the path you threw out for consideration in andys office, thats you, that theres no way he gets elected, thats trump but im afraid we cant take that risk. Id like an insurance policy in the unlikely event you die before youre 40. Its like an insurance policy in the unlikely event you die before youre 40. Why were you talking about the outcome of an election with two line agents who were working on a case, the carter page investigation at that time involving the president. Dont you think thats inappropriate . I think the premises of your question is not accurate. I dont recollect talking to peter strzok or lisa page, only one of whom is an agent in the fbi, about that conversation referenced in their text message, which i was not a part of. Youre saying that didnt happen . You deny that happened . I dont recall that ever hang. Happening. Before we leave the fisa warrant application that you signed, the renewal application. How is it that the court was so deliberately and disastrously misled such that it had to issue a public rebuke at the fbi. Do you take responsibility . I disagree with your description that the court was deliberately misled. Really . Yeah thats correct. You think it was just an accident . I think that there were numerous and objection able errors and omissions in the package do you thi