I want my audience members to know, i want to bring this to you from head or high water. Hopefully just had. We have interruptions, i want to apologize before him for technical difficulties with the pending storm but its my pleasure to get this program started by passing it on to the museums stone historian and executive director of our institute for the study of war and democracy. Thanks and welcome to everyone from louisiana. Quite literally in the path of the storm, a few hours from the eye of the hurricane. The world is getting a lot of the ladder and we hope we dont get any today. We are really excited about todays program. Every now and then, you get to interview and author in the case of this particular author, this might be difficult but hes a writer, best selling author of numerous spy among friends great the trail, a great hes written and presented these documentaries of his work. He is a star in the field. Ben mcintyre welcome to the National World war ii about. Thank you so much for inviting me. Thank you for having me. You are a master on this topic. I will tell our audience, you really dish it up in style. Let me begin by asking you a standard question, why this topic and why now . Is something about the moment that suggests this amazing woman . Better known in her professional life as soon year, why this book . It was really accidental discovery of hers joy. I was researching a completely different story, the story of oss operation, the tail end of the war when they began to parachute anti germany and intelligence gathering. This is operated from london. At the back of the story, she wasnt identified in the pages but she wrote names of addresses there. They didnt know was all of the ones were being recruited by her but that was my starting points. Beginning to do this and then go back in time. I found this remarkable character rushed back even earlier. Why now . For me, it was a challenge. I have never written from this perspective before and i have never written like this. It was time for story was extraordinary because as many will know, there are many women spies, a woman intelligence officer, the pitch that she was saying in the red army, that is unique in my experience. I couldnt find a single other woman who has written so far, let alone in this. In a way, her stories have been far too long because she was a woman. She used her gender to hide what she was really up too but also, they shied away from these subjects. If i didnt have incredible fortitude and interview of her surviving children, they allowed me access to all of her diaries and lectures. They are and, ive lived the kind of life, i always felt she was with me, guiding me through this story. Instead of trying this, it was a great comfort and he couldnt have written the book without it. Tell us more about her, shes a good communist. By the age of 17 in berlin, how had she got to this . Tell us about her family life. She has a circle around her, tell us about the young woman. They always understand unless it is the chaos in germany between the war. The. When Economic Disaster was looming and was on the rise on the right. He was extremely powerful and many people in a way, she had an intellectual academic family. They knew everybody. Einstein, everybody who is anybody on the left there. Probably as a result of her experience as a team, the degradation and contrasting family, joined the communist party at the age of 17 despite her parents objection. She never really wavered. Well, she did waiver in the whole party seemed to come apart in her hand. Away from her equivocations the story but because she was very young when this took place, its very old when the berlin wall came down. It is a migration to the left. But the soviet union is the future but today we live in the era. [laughter] exactly and what they could come into the germany was considered to be of the next revolution. But then to take place in germany. And yes she saw all those that went with it. Im trying to think of the word. She was bookish. Bookstores. And with that idea or a yearning for something. I dont want to give too much of the details away but how does she make that transition . In the phrase that we use is we outgrow that but she grew into that action oriented. She is a contrast as you say gentle and bookish she wrote short stories and lived in the house the largest private library in germany. He can get much more bookish than that. Thats the way that she was but as you say was espousing a violent revolution from the very young age. And then for the first half of her life and then with the war with the soviet union to with the allies to defeat the nazis but those that prove it around her in some ways and as a change of beliefs so from our perspective so for me that is fascinating how did she get into a . It is accidental. She went to shanghai with a brief period. And then went to upper manhattan and with a lovehate relationship that she deeply admired and they had a young talented architect and went along and was only 24. And that was intoxicating place. Thats a huge melting pot. And then witness this the first handyman shocked by it but there were is a fascinating woman by the way with the most extraordinary name. Thats what led you to this topic. So maybe at that point to have a highly successful novel. But by the time she led agnes to shanghai over already with the military intelligence and then to explain that she longed to do something but shanghai was the birthplace but the Chinese Communist party was going on undergoing oppression under qinghai check but it was a brutal oppression 300,000 people were killed. And ursula and then to be described by ian fleming on it could be substantiated and the soviets were bankrolling the underground. And so it was one of the greatest assets leave being a double life she has a husband and then has a child by an and then to leave him and i think of london who has no private life you do whatever the party tells you one of the things we find so fascinating is the constant tension between what she saw and the responsibilities as a wife and mother and homemaker. Throughout her life the two sides of her life even in old age we continue to wonder if she was a good spire a bad mother. And then to put the family second and to struggle in the family were been wiped out as well so she was putting everybody at risk and when she said i will never give up my family again. Unless the revolution requires it of me. So she would have done it. And then to put cause before their family. Is not that you would ask ever of a meal. You are right. s to say he was a bad father. But thats what she did. Then she interrogates herself on this subject. Was a a bad mother . Did i do enough . And if you found out actually in middle age no idea their mother was a spy. And that something completely different. And then had a longterm effect on the children. As we began the discussion today and so they couldnt have done it without them. Did you talk to them on this point . Three different times of her life they were all communist spies themselves. And then completely. And that recruiter of the first great love. There is a double standard but she was a woman way ahead of her time. And then a conversation and then to have all the secrets. And then perhaps the problem is because of where i came from to trust anybody that is very poignant also what i am touched by is to say reading the book to say i now understand my mother a little better. Secret or toxic. Its very difficult to give it up. And with the books about spying and there isnt a simple black and white. People are damaged by the stories and what happened. The children are no exceptions. It might be said. But it rarely comes to a happy ending. You are a he will writing off into the sunset and i wonder if at that moment is difficult to remember which lie you are living at the current time. Thats exactly right. And then to tell compound lies. And to it is a strange profession but then that all balances out the very occasionally and history it makes a huge difference. But then one of those but the intelligence of the building of the atomic bomb affects the World History which again is quite essential. And then help being a communist in manchuria build bombs and then the great story in their and then to relate that to the audience. And word is trending and to be trained and work and she was an expert homemaker one of the things she had to do in japanese manchuria she was providing money and going back and forth you could just go into one shop to buy everything you needed because the japanese intelligence would pick you up in seconds. And then to go to a hide on it to a hardware store. And then asked for the 10 pounds of in a tree. The shopkeeper misheard her but then she stuffed it into the pram and well the baby back home. And then to go shopping for a while but it kept the bomb making going. Looking at the authors ability and then to sabotage that is astonishing two worlds at once youre caring for your child at the same time. But the extraordinary photograph. And then you can see the polls and how they got away with that. The National World war ii museum. But sonja is were time spying which do you think were most significant . Talk us through that and that is the most interesting portrayals. She is redeployed to switzerland running those agents into the right and then sets herself up with the chalet in the Swiss Mountain and then that with moscow. So then that is sent to market so that is important and then to be very close to fascinating hitler recruiting to communist. To escape the persecution this is before the outbreak of war and one of them had discovered his favorite restaurant. And then says thats an opportunity and then to get a bomb when there was a very flimsy partition and then they will blow that to smithereens in this was weeks away. And it was stopped and the moment when nazi germany and the soviet union struck the alliance with a nonaggression pact the day after that was agreed to cease all offensive operations. Who knows where to been the future of the world. And at the favorite restaurant go have a bite of ravioli. But this is one that i admit comes to fruition i had never heard about before. And then to be enthusiastic. And with that Devils Alliance and those that when they began to realize and then to about all fascism was a terrible crisis of conscience. In 1984 oceana goes from an ally to one the enemy of another to the exact opposite. So were well mail that moment. Im sure orwell was thinking specifically when he both that. It was shortlived because the invasion of the soviet union from 1942 then it turned around again and found herself on the right side but for a long period and then put out to drive. I think the audience would like to know a bit more of the operation. The oss decides to parish 81 parachute operatives in 1945 every single one of thes agents is a communist and from elevations of ideologically like minded individuals today suspect that himself with a communist . And then to have a middleman to distance herself and then they believe they were sending their own spies they were incredibly brave parachuting in and they believed they were sending in their own spies but they didnt realize there are basically working for moscow and if they are still in alliance so im just hoping the cause really the general allied cause but those on the american side. And then to say at that point and those that had been persecuted and then to go into exile in britain to know that they were unionized it is one of those extraordinary moments to provide the soviet union with the key piece of technology. So that would become the walkietalkie named after those that invented it. The way the spies on the ground it was a revolutionary piece of technology and then they parachute into berlin and then that spying technology as they related to the atomic weapon. Lets move into the very area. And the Famous Nuclear spy how important was ursula with the rapid soviet development . And from switzerland to read jolene her family and to become the single most important in the country. And then has three children that would have meant a perfectly ordinary on the countryside but in the backyard to build a very powerful radio transmitter she was sending the atomic secrets. And then running a whole network ofs plot on of spies within the network. And then to be prodigiously talented that britain and america with the alliance of moscow not sharing with the soviet union with a very naive philosophy but really handing over the crown jewels 570 pages of documents the blueprint how to build the atomic weapon and it so complicated should actually put them in the dead drop site. And with that village and then would be picked up working on the diplomatic cover in london. And moving to the Manhattan Project and then to hand them over in new york and then lost alamos and then in 1949 to the astonishment of the west and the consternation of washington. And that is one of the most extraordinary aspects. So as you go to a handler in america eventually thats with a plan to the case thats a crucial figure. And those ramifications the running of the spies. And it was extraordinary. But eventually to develop their own atomic weapon my suspicion is to be quite advanced. I am convinced they wouldnt. And we can debate the longterm implications. But then they make the world safer. They created this balance between east and west are we forgetting now there were voices with that atomic weapon was developed and then each used on the soviet union to be a onesided word. So imagine it what that wouldve been like if that happened . America first. This is not a support for communism but the effects of this may be that cap the world safer. The last question. And those that are rooting for her with the japanese are the germans. And then spying on the british and the american. And at one point she seriously considers murdering her lifelong nanny, the woman who served her for decades because she found out too much of her activities. Did the ursula change in the course of her life . I think it is a bit of growth and remains committed or to share serious doubts . And then to be change. And then that is the collision between her private and emotional private life and the political secret life because if you say from the german woman had come across what they were up to and tries to betray her. And then at that moment him and we discuss of they have to liquidate. And then know how to use it. And i was in the forefront of that. And then expected to produce moral conscience that those are goodies and baddies and then to give a lesson in civics. And then that fascinating state of gray. With ed jean mann a james bond. And then to write a book or condemn her. And then to explain what communism was like. That is fantastic in the book is named agent sonja i recommend it to everyone it is a wonderful book. Lets go to the q a from the listeners. Has russia acknowledge. But yes it is on the culture. It is a right and got to meet germany and that was present into the stasi. But then said you cannot possibly publish this. And then was about to publish what remained what was that propaganda at the time. And then to be the master but being tremendous chairman but then they had absolutely no idea. And that was from the seventies. But then after her death and so they had begun to acknowledge her and to celebrate her and then we can truly speculate but and then so yes they have acknowledge that in there with that other access and in moscow. That richard actually we have another related question and ursula where they like after the war . I saw both versions. The astonishing thing is and then a moment to escape. And so she arrives in east germany and gives of the library. Thats a difficult love to leav leave. She did and said she washed her hands of it. And then to survive all of that and then completely reinvented herself. And with the east german and to serve so many copies and became more famous as a childrens novelist than ever as a spy. And then to reinvent herself. And then the scales began to fall from her eyes. And with the invasion of hungary and in 1968. And the terrible moment was the discovery of the purview. With the carnage that she knew and loved most but what she said in later life so i did this and then said i still believe. Its not the fault of communism but of the people. But that was the defense. At the time of the purges and then to say things you cannot make an omelette without breaking a few eggs talk about two or 3 million victims of that purge. And then to come to that realization later in life. But then to survive and she was fairly moody about this how not a foreigner or a jew of the informers. But never denouncing anyone else. And that is the currency of survival and then survived to say i am innocent but my neighbor or my brotherinlaw and then she never did and never heard denounced yourself. And to inspire extraordinary loyalty among friends and colleagues. The next question from facebook. Which. The most favorite and he was a proper crook a professional all conman and recruiting from the Channel Islands and then to determine. And that was the proper crooked. Although he is pretty good at this and with those compound lies. And he was really good at it but and then to push her own family that was such a rare courage and then to fight for the west for a dozen years to go back to go inside the soviet machine so any moment one tap on the shoulder you can be dead and tortured and killed and then to contribute but does it ever get back to the operation in the field . Today talk about being irritate irritated . A good question to the extent the soviet espionage inside germany and the tyranny and the battlefield its interesting and im not really an expert on that and then to gather that information she wasnt actually doubting it herself. Its the importance. The does she know the value of what she was saying . I dont think she did i didnt see it at that point to be her role. But i would argue yes it did. They also had chapter and verse on the build up for those. Because he was so paranoid and extraordinary he assumed it was and one who ended up in japan and then before and during in britain and after the war with stalin and the analysts believe. So one of the greatest spy of history and with that balance. How word you describe their children . Often that so these things happen eventually you will find them. I approach it with some trepidation and the other son was at aberdeen at that point and the other son was at aberdeen at that point they were both on the left and part of their mother. Them to turn up and say yes i will ride back on mothers life and it is very suspicious but i got to know them but they became generous but then turns up with all these boxes of material. And then that happens i know most people are descendents of some people to have their own family stories and to come back on our lives and then to tell the stories eventually. But then to the great credit and with the truth is. In the way that it happens. And then to be incredibly generous. Thats for the rest of my life spirit these are good questions. And to be appointed and then to get paid for her spying. Very interes