Yes i can understand wire you writing about it now hasnt happened jet. Im learning about the things we can write about now. I deliberately took a step back. Im not writing as things unfold. Im not about this or that misstep by this so that government. Im not talking that level at all. What i am doing is standing back and saying okay, why pandemic why now. That is something i could do. Youve been reading my work, you know, i like many other people been writing about this for years. Weve been saying this is going to happen. These are the viruses we need to worry about. This is what we need to do. It is already so obvious those predictions were back on. And we havent done a lot of things we need to do. This was kind of the moment to repeat all of that stuff. At a time when people can really understand it. Therefore the message might really come home to the right people. I think that point out emphasizes how strongly am how political leaders have been represented to them previously for preparedness. I just want to read one quote, its almost as if countries are interested in vital emergencies but not preventing the emergence that causes emergencies in the first place. Was that something came at you in your writing the book . One of the ways days is postcolonial. The deeper issue than that. Prevention is not very sexy. Going and stopping something from happening. People are always complaining. Were we succeed people wonder what we are therefore, nothing happens. Prevention just does not attract a lot of attention. Where it is so obvious it is way cheaper. Its been estimated 2 of what it is costing us, think that is an overestimate. What we need to be good preventive measures would stop this from happening in the first place. And then people would say what are we spending this money on . Throughout the city of los angeles. Both of them took the learning. And both of them put together stashes of ventilators in case they were ever hit by a disease that required a lot of people to go on ventilators. Los angeles had ajit crisis a few years ago and said what are we keeping this stuff around for . And got rid of it. Sent out theres a shortage. I wonder how many people over the years attacked City Government and said what the hell are we spending money on these ventilators for . Well get rid of it. Well starsky back even worse. Theres also the challenge, the Surveillance System is going to bring out the disease that dont go anywhere. And the challenges of balancing those against the threat of the true pandemic. How do you think political leaders can walk that line . Guest they spend a lot of various kinds of insurance already. What is the chance we are going to be hit with an overwhelming Nuclear Attack . Why do we need to renew our nuclear defenses very expensively to guard against that . There seems to be very few questions if that is necessary. But that cost a vast amount more than investing in a few vaccine vaccines. That is insurance. People will say chia, if you buy Fire Insurance and your house doesnt burn down you go to the Insurance Company and say hey i want my money back . No. Its similar. I think people just did not see it as a risk. People got out of the habit to see Infectious Disease is really being a risk. And a pandemic is not happening now, ive got a chunk of money here i can spend it on something. Is a going to be pandemic next year . Well know, but we know there will be one sometime. And its going to be very, very bad. But yes this is one i hesitate to say low probability high impact event. Thats what most experts call i it. You might get a catastrophic explosion in your port like beirut just had who would have predicted that a week ago . If you might get others the flu pandemic at the same time as the Covenant Team pandemic. Postings on the roam of possibility. But no one can say if theyre going to happen. The impact is going to be huge. How do you convince someone is going to spend unlimited pot of money to set some aside for that risk when you cannot even quantify if that risk will happen in the lifespan of this budget. You cant do that. Thats the first one to go by the side. You cannot predict when this is coming. You can say that is coming but you cannot give policymakers the kinds of tools they typically need to make budget decisions. I think now that we can all see what this could do the arm waving it may be more effective. Stuart you mention of course some political leaders are starting to make the event vested in array of different approaches that are preparing us and to quote the g20 is increasing development, vaccines and leverage. Rapid development so where do you start . Whats the most important thing to focus on . The most important thing is for the g20 to follow through on the immediate said it would hold in order to enact some of those. It really did its homework. This a number of things we need to do its not a mystery. They said we will hold a meeting of health and finance in the coming months. It was a statement made in a mark jim march to discuss it. They had really done their homework. When they asked what should be asking for it was a pretty comprehensive list. And it was all the right things. In fact on the g20 website to see if anything has changed. It hasnt. I heard some scuttlebutt that maybe that meeting was happening in september. But i dont see it scheduled anywhere yet. There is one point that they did not hit. One of the things that covid has really brought home, is the National Sovereignty still rules unchallenged in International Health management. China said to the w. H. O. , with got this infection but it is not spread human to human. The w. H. O. Could not then say great will be there tomorrow. We will sit and talk to your technical experts. Houston went technical experts get together the truth comes out for that have an srs. Doctors in beijing started talking, all the sudden actually have had more deaths than that. If you have your technical experts getting together, especially if you have confidence Building Measures that used to talking to each other, the truth comes out. We need some mechanism to do that. As it was a w. H. O. Could not go in. Chinas eight weve got it, you dont have the right to commend. Except it is the whole planet that as at risk. Its a shared risk there has to be shared responsibility. Theres apparently no way of understanding that. China suffered mightily from having delayed admitting this thing spread persontoperson. Because of long as i didnt admit that they cannot have Infection Control measures and move on. In the end on the 20th of january when they finally did admit that shut the city down. Some of us have been that through that ourselves have heard basically we should all know that we are all in this together only to share response. We need to share information. We cannot leave it to the whims or the governing of Different Countries, whatever they are. To be in charge of responding to these things. Its not just china that keeps things quiet. As you know is a Public Health expert the only treaty weve got governing this came into being because back in the 1800s, port cities were not telling people when they had cholera outbreaks. And ships were sailing in i could not set sail again because they had been in a collar report. There some effort to get people to share information on cholera outbreaks for that reason. There is so much to that in all the major powers of the time. It took them decades to reach a decision. This is a problem humans have trouble talk about disease. But we have to find a way to do that that is not held hostage to National Sovereignty. Its a global risk. It has to be some kind of global governance. We could do that with the existing International Health regulation. Just tweak it a little bit. Happen against the backs dro drop. Distrust of multilateral organizations which is not going to help. The finding the bodies help drive the content. It is such a key player. So given where we are now and the events of the last few weeks even, since it came in what can w. H. O. Do to bolster efforts. Particular with the threat of the u. S. And general lack of trust its facing now . Who cannot do anything until the Member States let it do something. As people always say that w. H. O. Is its Member States. They have never giving it the authority to override National Government issues. Theyve never given enough of a budget to do very much. Although it does with it can with what its got. I think we have all seen we actually need some sort of global coordination in the management of these issues. And Member States its their game, its their power, theyve got to do this. Theyve got to pull their own sovereignty that will collectively do this. And it is not beyond their capability. They collectively manage materials to the international agency. There is an inspection regime there which everybody is subject too. They give up enough sovereignty that they have all said we will declare how much material weve got, we will declare what with got from emergent. And you can commit inspectors and zipper telling the truth. The could conceivably make nerve gas for if you want to commit and check you can come anytime. We can be subject to inspection along those lines any time. We want to make sure neighbors are not doing it too. Everybody has declared thats okay in their own interest. Disease is a much worse risk. Why dont we have declarations under International Health regulations. We arty have a requirement for that, that threatens people internationally. Why dont we have a declaration of the International Health regulations at countries declare what diseases they got. Its one of the got a novel disease. They say great will be there tomorrow. Member states will kindly give me enough of a budget i got some inspectors and i can do that. They can see what youve got everybody can be in this together from the start to. If the country says i dont have a novel disease a w. H. O. Can say how good is your surveillance . How do you know that . Now at the country says some reports say i dont have any polio the w joe says great, how many diseases similar to polio have you diagnosed in the past year . If he was diagnosed as many you should have had your not doing a hard enough. If you have not diagnosed for many you havent looked hard enough you dont know you dont have polio lets Work Together on improving that capability. Theyve done that in all the countries in africa. They could do it now for general surveillance. If there is one thing we need all the experts say is im sure you know, we need more than anything else is surveillance. That is one thing the g20 declaration did not mention. That to figure out ways of getting vaccines and diagnostics and tested people that is great. That is really good. But it should also figure out a way of somehow getting us together on surveillance, making sure people come to watch for diseases. One of the problems is these diseases are mostly viruses, its mostly going to happen in the places with the most animals which is the tropics. A lot of those countries are not very wealthy. It is easy. We need to work on surveillance. We really need to get that together. And we can do it under a treaty thats not unlike treaties weve already all signed up to. I think its a nuclear in chemical reaching is very powerful. We have verification protocols. Their disagreements through certain powerful states. Come back to surveillance also. The idea of strengthening Surveillance System stands for decades. Recently highlighted in 2014. Its a great response, right . At the things that have been in the works. I just want to mention on that note, when it comes to strengthening systems to what extent is the World Health Organization empowered to make these kind of decisions . How much buyin is needed . To the extent that w. H. O. Is totally chronically underfunded organization, its actually accomplish some miracles in the last few years. After a bullock. If they play in the debit over slow reaction there. Yes institutional structure did the problem with that. The w joe maybe gets a little too much. It was slow, theres just one guy in the whole place who did not jump at the right time. It happens in Organization Running on a skeleton staff and a skeleton budget. Given that is the case, after bola the global Emergency Response organization. During the fox nation program, we think this drug works okay. I have preapproved this vaccine they are people have developed. Unless i forget that soy six years ago. So the data good job there. But at the same time after 2008, it had a huge cut in its budget. Naxals in the states for reasons that do not make sense. And, that is just putting all of us at more risk. Because frankly you can criticize deborah jo, i am a journalist to do it all the time, they know that. We are supposed to do that. But this is the only game in town. I went the global collaborative effort to control the systemic disease for the w. H. O. Is where you have to start. Its really the only agency weve got. Host theres always the question that should w. H. O. Be the ambulance chaser, the ambulance drivers that for the organization . Absolutely. That remains the question. But you need to have a budget commensurate with that and the responsibility. Take up that, to being a journalist, as a veteran reporter here what have you seen during this unfolding pandemic in terms of communicating their findings. Terms with accurate information. I have to say thats one of the few right spots that have arrays from the sprint there are some people covering themselves with glory. I mean like helen rental right into the american press, and international. Thereve been lots of other people really doing well. A lot of scientists i have to say is a moment of sheer panic one is writing the book. Usually make a statement in print, i checked with at least two scientists per is getting a lot of emails back going hi deb, sorry cant get back to really busy. Scientists are working 24 7 after rerouting most of their research towards various things having to do with covid. And also engaging in a lot of public outbreak, marks case in point. He was calling me up and helping me with things ive been talking him for years. Eventually psychiatric kit do this anymore. Hes been writing for the boston globe. And thats great he is doing that. But there few people helping, their points of writing the book. Fortunately most the point that already talked about. Says pretty much looking. To what extent do you continue your research . Have to pick out public outreach. Im sure scientists are not as comfortable. I getting that type of change the type of information that comes out . Were not hear from all scientists. I think that is something, im assigned to see that happen with my peers as a challenge as well. It has been a hugely prominent feature about this pandemic. Maybe facilitate by social media in some cases. Certainly perhaps some state sponsored risk. So how damaging has this information been . And you think journalists, scientists do to counter that . Guest thats one of the reasons i wrote the book. This is mostly like preaching to the crowd. Or to the choir. Pete preaching to the people who are the scientist for the usually pretty synthetic to science in these things. The book hopefully contribute what you can pray this is the moment when i can tell people what i know it is time they can really hear it. I think a lot of scientists have been doing that as well. No information is ever perfect. On the vaccine front, horse thats going to happen. Overhearing for measure say the scientists are more articulate than others. We dont go into science because theyre good at that. There are some really notable exceptions there also some people in trouble. Maybe skewing what we hear. Theres meetings among scientists and dont trouble talking to each other. Function of honest brokers delivering what they have to say getting a scientific message. Scientists dismiss with her hearing outbreak there told scientists are the devil or something. Listen to any Conspiracy Theory just because conspiracy theories of all because they appeal to certain psychological traits. And a lot of people are not constrained by facts. They can be as appealing as they need to be. There been a lot. Stuart one which hasnt struck me as i read the book is the idea that people might think the industry was inventing the pandemic to commercial. That blew me away. More broadly about this incredible situation that we are in. Its against the accident doesnt even exist yet. The data showing one in six persons and one in six people the u. S. Would probably not take a covid19 if it is in existence because of various concerns. In this day and age it seems really challenging. On one hand the vaccine is the Silver Bullet. We may not even have enough people are willing to take it. I think it is wrong to look at is informational problem but i talked to Risk Management people about this they say scientist just think if they sincerely explain the facts of people, that will bring them around. Of all the Psychological Research says in fact it doesn doesnt. You explain Global Warming to a Climate Change lawyer i will make them more confirmed. So why is she trying to explain this to me . [laughter] you cant win. There must be a broader answer and establishing trust among communities to begin with. And also, not so much speaking from one community to another. We need to get going within communities. We need to have people speaking in terms of values and language that they understand. And somehow the facts should be able to spread that way as well as from one self defined group to another. I dont know how you get around that. Thats sort of the takehome. Your report of not expert myself only report what i hear myself. But what im hearing is we need to allot more aware people who are denied lists, call these people dismissively the enumerates. They cannot understand the necessarily quantitative arguments