Shannon from Wisconsin Public radio. Thank you so much for being here as well and moderating this conversation today. As always i want to thank the library and the Public Library foundation for the ongoing support of free cultural events through the wisconsin book festival. It is one of the great pleasures of this year for me that we are able to do these events virtually and ring is altogether even if we cant be all together. But we also have been expanded. There are many people from madison, many people from wisconsin with people from across the nation and across the globe so that is one small wonderful thing that has occurred because of the pandemic. We are grateful for it with with you today. Most notable are grateful Jennifer Palmieri is here to talk about her book, and i will turn the proceedings over to jennifer and shannon and and il sue at the end. Thank you so much. Thanks, tremor. This is so much fun. Thanks jennifer for joining us today. It is fun to be able to be in these different places and i am in medicine as is conor. Are you in new york . Im at my husbands family sells in new jersey. My post was coming but is a beautiful that i know we do back up to a beautiful its nice here. I am really happy to be talking with you today. I loved your book and is reading, i just like to sum it up with her feel like im hearing this from a friend, talking to friend. Its so painfully honest. You have in the background but she proclaims is jennifer his book. The thing that really hit me hard is how women always dies after every ball. I kept thinking about that etiquette thinking about that as kind of a driving force of so much of what you write about. Why do we do that . Should we be doing that . I think we do that because were not quite sure if you fit in in the workplace, not quite sure we belong. I think is the same doubt that makes us think we are in competition with other women for a limited amount of success. When i first started working, which was in 1988, my first job, i worked in a Congressional Office and ended up going on for obama and i was like lucky to have this great boss. I felt like i learned about politics from the men and women both but i definitely look to the women to see how am i supposed to be in the workplace. I found the women did their job as they were assigned but they also did everything that needed to happen in order for the institution to run. Whether that was the job or not. Admin, like at the end of the day, well, the women would have since if i leave im going to be the first asked to go. I think we have since that we are not quite established there. What i realized was i ended up taking about the value something that person could go for every ball. I like hearing from my colleagues, we couldnt possibly get with that jennifer and shes always so reliable, and i was proud of that but what i came to realize was i was taking too much value from that and not enough value from things like i dont know, hey, scholarly, how we actually pay you women. Its a simple thing that sort of the overall premise of the book is that we just dont always in the world and how we shall we value men over women. That real equality is when we stop doing that, in ways that spilled into the marketplace as well what we hear, men and women both German Forces were clery than here women, like all the ways we should value women of the mint. Do you feel like how do you feel like you have improved on that and write about we are simple page is a member the Washington Post for many years, i wrote about technology for the business section and i always felt like i was often the women in the room but had to do more as the woman in the room. I kept thinking back to that. A little older now, i feel like i can say no to things a little more. Do you like that helped . I do feel like that helped. I feel like i can say no to more things but it also want myself for you or women to leave behind the good skills we develop. There may have been things we have done to fit into a mans world that meant when working harder than men. But it does mean the answer isnt acting like them. The answer isnt just act like men. I dont want to do that in the world would be pretty uninteresting if we did. Its like i want to be more conscious of it to make sure im diving for every ball and, therefore, uncompensated for it, or i work later on a piece of writing that others may do, other mean they do but i just wanted to be that good. Its about being conscious of why shooting what youre doing and making sure youre getting something in return for it. I want women to read this book. The whole time im writing it would have hit is youve got this. Like youve got this. Theres nothing left to prove. You do have some other herbal you have to go through. You dont need to have life and of your resume one more time, iq are fine as is and the things that are holding you back a lot of what you been internalized. Let me explain why get internalized those things. Theres a good reason. That is, i hope it gives women tools to do that. You mentioned pay which is important. Do you have any advice about asking for a raise or asking for more money . One of the hardest things i think so many of us do. I read a lot of interesting studies about it, like lean and did a study, a number of ago, the founder of loan when innocent i deserve a raise and i want it because i am worth it, she got the race once but she never got promoted again. But the women who came in and said i need a raise because it is demoralizing to my staff that i am not paid as much as the male colleagues and its hurting our ability to be productive because people on my staff dont feel badly about it, the new woman got the race and continued to get promoted in the company. I am not saying thats what we should do. Exactly what we should not do but it just shows you how come the something other than politics in the Clinton Campaign. We were told hillary ambition to be present at it is expressed and wanted to be in service to others. We still expect women to be selfless and maternal, so your race has to be because it will help some of those. I think now what i realized is even if it is a little uncomfortable, even if you do get a little blowback we just have to be forthright and asking for what we deserve. If you get blowback, its better than this. I also think about the status quo. In terms of realization i had because when i started working i thought the womens Rights Movement was done. Did you think that . I thought that was something to happen in the 60s and we are good and maybe ill have to work a lot harder than the guys but eventually it would keep getting better. In my own career i had a great career. Its not like i feel like munich i do hold me back. Definitely not. They still rose with faster than i did. I was Deputy DirectorHouse Communications directed work for a guy who was ten years older than me. He does not think he is ten years better than he. He doesnt think that. Its just the system, he rose faster and its like understanding your operating within a system that has devalued women. That is why, this is why the Women Soccer Team has to sue to get paid what they are worth is because we built a system and just to get out from underneath the system. If we get a little blowback compared to with other women he had to fight to get as to this point, whatever, thats our role. We have to move forward, drop, fire. Thats what happens to women to move forward but it is better than sitting still. You mentioned making change from insight out which are think is a great way to about it. How can we make change it now . I will just mention i was just reading statistic about how many women are leaving the workforce right now in the pandemic and its stunning but you probably seen some of the same. How can we make change when women and working parents are leaving the workforce and we need to not just make things a little better . We need to entirely. [inaudible] women are independent women are come have suffered the highest number of layoffs. Also most likely be in an essential profession that is underpaid. Talking about teachers, healthcare workers, and they are bearing the burden at home. All of those things have combined come as my friend say, its not worth it anymore, i can do this. Im not going to go back to work. This is a pivotal moment. That means inside individual workplace and collectively outside of the world we band together to say this is just proving how broken all of the systems are, that we dont have childcare thats provided that this is not the service and is not affordable, that we dont pay teachers and home care workers and childcare workers enough. All with these things revealed his women are not valued, but they were expected do this kind of work that makes the world run for lesser and repayment to doe things that they have traditionally done in the world. Im not saying the slightly like this is a pivotal moment. Either we will do that, and i believe women just add that fire in is that were going to fight for that. Or women could really suffer a generation long setback in terms of having power in the workplace and that having the option of working outside the home. How can we turn that in the right direction . Is some of that helping each other . The premise of the book is to support women. When you believe yourself to be in competition with other women, you would think this is the place for men and women have to find each other, and i think believing that as so many of us have internalized, i believe that is what will he keeps the cap on things. Because if you believe it affects how you engage in the workplace, youre not a good advocate for yourself because ten times a day youre being sent signals that tell you men are more valuable than you. From like the music we hear on the radio to every time we see a Television Show critical, who is the writer . Who is the director . Who is the executive producer . The athletes and what they are paid, just all these ways we absorb constantly. Think about them, no wonder we have a hard time asking for a raise. No wonder a parttime advocating in our own families that the burden would be shared more evenly between men and women. But it is like understand that come nowhere come from and then go fight for it. We all agree, i mean i do feel its important to understand i dont feel like men tried to hold women factor i dont think thats whats happening. We all agree that women should have the same opportunities as men and now were to get into the nittygritty to dismantle these systems that have been built that curry all of these obstacles that exist in real life, like the ones that working women are finding now. Who have been some of your mentors in years past . What have you learned in bringing that forward . Valerie jarrett was a fairly important mentor of mine, and advisor to president obama. I met a relatively late in my professional development. I was 45 when i i came to the white house. And i would always want to support of the womens i made a point of trying to hire women, try to particularly women of color because Democratic Politics and they dont always walk the walk when it comes to being good advocate for people in your actual workplace. But i was one of those women that like went to like i do instinet all the girls get together and have low power session. I was never one of those women who do that because i thought it good to limit of the women for support it meant you couldnt hack it in the mans world, right . Then and that valerie who had a different view, a beneficiary of law to support she can become a lot of backing she gave me, who subjugated when theres no reason for her to do it and i realized you know what, i cant hack it in the mans World Without a womans health. Not only is nothing wrong with that come to something empowering about that. What a fat in the last few worlds, years were embrace this notion that women do need to band together so were at least not in competition with each other but also support each other because it is harder and i found if i could give my younger self one piece of advice it would be women are not your competition. They are your support system and you treat them as such. It rebounds in you and all of these ways. She and particular, in terms of female mentors really important. Another weapon to write about in the book and dedicate is Evelyn Lieberman who is a deputy chief chief of staff for president clinton, the Clinton White house. The one sentence she said to me is people take their cue from you. If you act like you belong in the romcom people will treat you like such. I find it harder for women, is hard for people of color but bi really find that to be true. Naturally interesting. The title of your podcast i think is tell us all a bit about that. Has to do with hillary clinton. Yes. The podcast is called just something about her, and during the Clinton Campaign we get a lot of research why people did my killer and what we would hear over and over again in real life, this is something about her i dont like. Theres just something about her i dont trust and they could not be specific about it. Was just this thing. I think that thats what we are now, like in the intangible conscious gender bias territory. With hillary what a think happen is that she was somebody for the course of 40 years was always stepping outside of the role that women have traditionally played from when she was a very young woman in college to when she was like a lawyer, didnt change her name when her husband was the governor of arkansas to the first, first lady worked on policy to the first, first lady to run for senator its not any of it was so radical in real time but it was just a little we dont recognize it. I didnt appreciate before work for hillary how important models are and what he does look like. Theres something vaccine about her come something confounding, theres something about her i just dont like. It reminded me we often get criticized if we sound too feminine. People even say i cant quite say come to what i dont like about that womens voice but i dont like it. We would get advice in the campaign on the campaign he would fight for hollywood like big directors and stuff with sandisk memos to say she needs to be strong and we have to see a vulnerable side. She has to a commanding presence, but we need to see something a little softer. I was like, these people really smart i should take others advice. Finally i was like this makes no sense. Hillary said tell them this is really helpful, thank you, so helpful. But what would be really useful would be if you could point to a woman on the world stage that didnt just write and then that would give hillary something that she could model herself after. Of course no one had an answer. You like fine, this is just people getting used to change. If its what we had to go through its annoying but whatever but we have to go through it. The podcast you interviewing women, right . And then right now women. Thats okay. Everyone can tune into that. If the what is it, what is the thing that like, and sometimes its women, its just something that i really like. Connie britton, and actors that come if you know cotton britton is and has the same reaction, oh, my gosh, i love her. I think what shes about an empathy and was and she brings to each of her characters. I interviewed the australian comedian, and shes a very challenging thing and for she is rejecting the way comedy was made. She thought was mean and the psychosocial change it. Its trying to identify with those changes are. Sounds wonderful. Going back to the election world for a moment, what a thinking these days about our current election . How do you feel . As you follow i am in, im on the show called the circuit on showtime, a weekly political documentary and my colleagues on the show often tell me you are having posttraumatic stress and you are seeing problems that are not here. I hope, jews believe were on the cusp of, we are on the cusp of, i think its up your booklet about and i think thats great. I hope all donald Trump Supporters cannot. I hope all of the joe biden supporters cannot and we see really are. I think if that happens joe biden will win. But what i hope is that if were really on a precipice here and if things could be very ugly after the election even turn violent, or the could be a point where people say i really want to start understand the other side and start to break some of these divisions down. I travel a lot for this show, talk to a lot of come im always a democrat but i talked to a lot of Trump Supporters to understand what is it that they see in trump that i dont appreciate . What is it that they see what america is going that they want to change and see if theres any place to come together. After 16 of something thats what we would be. I was hoping we would have reckoning for the resolve come agree to certain principles and before. Obviously that didnt happen. I am an endless optimist and the people that can happen now. We are all watching. We will see, well see. It could last longer it could last longer. If biden has a big win on that Election Night i think it could end quickly. If he doesnt i think it will go, it will come it will go on. It has potential of being residents election like we have never seen before. I wanted to ask about different generations. You and i are generation x just like holding the place to give as weve always done with no credit. Nobody cares about our trials and tribulations. Were just getting stuff done. I relate to all of that switch in your book. I can work with the other generations . I have teenagers, a c17yearold and a 14yearold, both girls so i kind of see their world. I work with people of different generations which is really interesting. I have to say having older, younger colleagues is really fascinating, else me a lot. How can women of different generations help each other next generation x x because were so small i think weve always been bridges. I feel like, i work for a lot of baby boomers and then work with a lot of millennials and weve always had women, weve always been very institute about how we can fit in and what we can be useful and observant in that way. I try to be a good mentor to a lot of women. A lot of journalists, if you can imagine, because a lot of the women journalists, and is good because i find they dont accept things that i accepted about how they were treated in the workplace. One of them said to me, what is the biggest role of your generation . I think it is to be a bridge and say not like with anger or resentment or an inability to hear all of you to say, explain like this why weve got into this and where we are. Is why we