Healthy democracy looks like this where americans can see democracy at work and the citizens are enforced. Get informed straight from the source on cspan unfiltered, unbiased, word for word from the Nations Capital to wherever you are. The opinion that matters the most is your own. Cspan, powered by cable. Thanks everyone for joining us for this important conversation. All this incredible research and data and analysis that you do in this book confirms what weve been saying for a long time that we arent all that different in this country. The first question that i have for you because i looked at your bio. Youve written about a celebrity, youve written about a lot of different topics but you havent written about Rural America so as the daughter of danville pennsylvania what drove you to write this book . That is a wonderful question senator, thank you for asking it and for being with me today. My earlier work i looked at the production of culture particularly artistic culture and creativity and later to the small things i looked at the consumption of culture and why we consume certain cultures but not others and in that book i started thinking deeply about this concept of cultural capital. The resources in terms of our education, in terms of what we read, what we watch, what we listen to, and as these become signifiers to the world at large i think what happened and in my book i delved deeply into this heres this elite capital culture. If you listen to pr, you have the university and the law degree and any myriad attributes that associate with a particular cultural capital. We have this wrong that this isnt a form of cultural capital, it is in the only form. And i really started thinking aboutt it where i grew up becaue i grew up in a small town in rural pennsylvania the daughter of irish immigrants born in West Virginia and this collision occurred where i was thinking aboutt this idea of capital and what it really meant. Everyone in my circle. I dont think that is entirely whats going on. Some of the story but theres a deeper story, so that was that kind of blending of understanding the culture of my hometown and Rural America and understanding more deeply what might a be happening in Rural America rather than what i felt was a stereo typical thing that got explanations of why folks voted for donald trump. When i was reading the book, i thought the more appropriate title for the thesis wasnt until the overlooked americans but the misunderstood theres the understanding of what that urban culture is into the rural culture. A lot of that is analyzed in a very natural sense when people talkbu about Rural America but u drill down and do great storytelling about the people who live there and also drawls in contrast in how we need to look differently at the data that we are looking at and i think your book does such a phenomenal job of exploring that can you talk about if you disagree with me about how this perception and attitude is about the racial r attitudes and Rural America and then talkbi a little bit about why you made that such a big part of your book . Thank you. That is such a wonderful question, senator heitkamp. So there is a couple of questions that really spokeke to me. All sorts of places from missouri to texas to tennessee to the heart of appalachia to pennsylvania to ohio. And i asked them a lot of questions about democracy and then questions about equality in the country. One thing that was abundantly clear to me was that Rural Americans were as keenly aware and concerned about the issues of racial equality in the country as their urban counterparts. The first thing that came to mind, d people are treated differently because of the color of their skin. Thats not right. Weve got to do something about it. And this was over and over again i asked the question do you think that americas maids willl replace why or why not. Its not an equal place because people are treated unequally because of their skin color and some ventured into because of their class and how much money they make. But the racial element is very clear the sensitivity to that. They know my politics about having a conversation with me. So you think may be they are just telling me what they know i want to hear. But i then look at the university of chicago and i know youll are based there as well. The university of chicago is a General Social survey and they do these amazing surveys of the folks theyve been doing it for decades on these issues and i looked at the questions on race and how rural versus urban america responded and you know, the first the top line take away is they largely feel the same way. They are largely supportive and not supportive of social policies equal measure. The biggest surprising take away for meat was that some of the greatest champions for social intervention to elevate the community, to elevate women were actually the least educated folks in Rural America. It wasnt the poster child of the progressive coastal elite that was responding to the support of certain kind of social policies along the line of race. Its actually these uneducated Rural Americans. I want to explore the work that you did with analyzing who is in Rural America. Its a generalization and i think that if you probably talk to anyone at a mall or suburbia. The chances are its going to be conservative older white people who p dont like us. You do some great work talking about regional differences on who lives in Rural America. Can you talk a little bit about that because i think it builds on your warning to people who want to have an opinion about Rural America. It builds d on the warning that dont just draw with a broad brush stroke. Its different in the midwest economically. And certainly the south has many more africanamericans who live in Rural America. In my neck of the woods, many more native americans who live in Rural America. We are seeing a growing number of hispanic people that have ruled for Economic Opportunity what a surprise do, what is and how that plays into the prevailing attitudes. I think that is a really wonderful take away to talk about Rural America is a million different thingsoi going on in these places. One thing that is clear to me is that even then if we are talking about social policy or economic development, and we talk about rural versus urbanan america or just urban america and this take away that its in decline, youve got a footnote that. I would actually argue that Rural America is thriving on a number of different metrics. But that there are certain regions that are in trouble. And they are in a very different situation of economic, social and cultural reasons. These are places that are ecomically depressed. Theres not as much knowledge on the industry coming to them. That ifat you look at for exampe the eastern seaboard the midwest is thriving on so many different metrics. At the sheer number of the people i talked to seems like its a great place to be. So i think that that is really important and then in terms of, and you did a great job highlighting the heterogeneity of the ethnic and racial composition of these different rural areas. Theyeren are so much different m one another. For many of us we think los angeles, new york, washington, d. C. And so forth. And yet we also love, you know, akron ohio or buffalo in the same story. Yet they have a very different Economic Situation in these superstar cities. And i want to say that its the same as Rural America. Rural america has places that it got stereotyped. The poor, people do not have college degrees. They may be have a higher portion of folks that havent finished high school. They dont have a lotdu of industry. T sure it is absolutely those places exist and that is a real opportunity for policy to create more of a targeted intervention, but then you have like coastal new england or rural audio or rural wyoming. And those places have high homeownership and employment rates, low unemployment, high Median Household Income and then using both the concentration of Industries Associated like agriculture in the midwest. But then you also see the trickling in of other Industries Like software and certain parts of finance despite the fact that we associate these as city sectors. One of the things that i remind people because i think again that image of Rural America is agriculturalic ameria so they are dependent on mineral extraction, which has the places youre talking about where weve seen the decline in places where mineral extraction is not the economy that it used to be so i want to talk a little about this selfimage because you do explore this in your book about the cognitive dissidents. Yassin gavin newsom has been doing a lot of interface talking about blue state economy versus red state economy economy and lot of that is driven by rules issues and the percapita expenditures is higher percapita and suburban areas so you look at all these measures in this kind of attitude about who they are and how people lookop at them, d i think in your book you true of lots of examples from what people were listening to and what people were hearing in terms of their grievance but can you talk a little bit about this chapter that you wrote on cognitive a dissidents cognitive dissonance and selfimage versuss urban america and the image that data would inform. Thats a wonderful question. I want to say let me collect my thoughts here. This chapter starts out with this wonderful woman and i met shannon through a network of folks and in a method called snowball sampling rate get contacts from people you interview and so forthe and at some point he landed upon shannons name and i emailed her and she wrote me back that was one of the most warming experiences w. There was nothing in it for them and they would respond immediately. Shannonso was one of the people and enemies of i asked her my usual round of questions that i askth everyone and i really likd her. This energy i got from her and get what she would say was totally the opposite of how i thought about the . World. It was just the experience of really liking her and wanting to grab coffee with her and saying wait a second you havent got vaccinated and you have made it clear you are planning to and you dont believe in Climate Change to question the 2020 election, you are a big supporter of donald trump, and you question marriage equality. These were an anathema and my way of being and yet there was such a warmth that i enjoyed every time we had a chance to connect all enjoyed it. I thought a lot about this and i realized you cited the chapter on cognitive dissonance and the problem is this idea that there is a sentiment about some issue right but in reality i had this break through which was that i was losing sight of the things about shannon that were why i liked her saab is focusing so much on this discord in our politics and not finding good reasons to like shannon. One of the things that really old for me was people say all search at things. They say i would go on vacation and i donated. Any number of things. Shannon when i asked her that question she said well i would buy an orphanage and an orphanage for all the children who lost their parents from drug addiction and im paraphrasing her. And she says i would also buy a lift people that are recovering drug i would buy the new teeth because you dont smile. Host its incredible. Ive question for you. Do you think shannon changed your opinion about or the group that you represent any talk a lot about how this was so important and chin and you may look i didnt want to tell her she was wrong about her facts because that wasnt my job. I just thought that was so interesting that you interjected that in the book because it would have been my reaction as an interview but do you think of all the people that you interviewed for this book that they see you now rural or lets put a label on the cultural academic elite did they see them differently because you reached out . You know i love i would love to take credit. Dont think they ever judge us in the first place. I dont think they ever did. I send my email out to these folks introducing myself and they have seen my picture and im a professor at usc in los angeles. And i would like to believe i would do the same and i wonder what i havedi my backup and i fl extremely changed by the work i did but thats the thing, the folks that i interviewed in Rural America from the getgo, sorry, please go ahead. Host i was just going to say this proves the point of your book which is when you looy at data and you lk at classification and label will have assumptions. And there really arent those judgments. Had you come to a judgment there would have been a different outcome but i i think i would tl people they say soandsos mad at me and i would say stand next to them for 15 minutes. They cant stay mad forever. One of the things that you talk about and this is true for my work you talk about how we like it privilege. There has been a lot of dialogue and you have this whole example of crt and whats happening in terms of how we perceive our history and what we are willing to say about our history and privilege discussion in your book was so interesting because it reflected a true kind of difference between maybe how urban americans see themselves and Rural Americans see themselves. Can you talk a little bit about your analysis of privilege im so glad you brought that up. Thatwa was something that was insightful as well. You dont go in knowing everything by any means and you helped appreciate the different understandings. Right off the bat urban americans are much more sensible than i think even their own ilk believe them to be. Theres this idea that a lot of these wealthy educated urban t americans are living in these bubbles and ive written a lot about that in myvi previous book that when i spoke to urban americans one was about material wealth and about having physical and tangible resources and there was a tremendous amount of guilt, selfawareness. And even angst about the privilege and at times this one woman who was mad at herself because she was so aware of her privilege and the fact that she was not happy. I thought it created a synthetic portrayal of ourta understanding of privilege coastal elites. Go ahead. I just want to say, when i get into these discussions because im frequently called on to explain why is it that Rural America does that bear our big generalizations in that whole dialogue but im privilege the one thing i would say is they see the whole privilege argument and i think this was a recurring throughout your book the whole privilege argument is the criticism of their successors criticism is to look where you are you didnt earn it and you got it because you werein right. And they say thats not sure. Re i earned what i have and i worked really hard and i didnt own a. I dont have my boot on anyones next why are you blaming me for the disparity that you see in society and i think thats a real important kind of dialogue and i think you delve into that someone which is look, i recognized we all start from different places in your book ceainly put that out in terms of the data and get i is an individualal vote will be responsible for only my actions and not the actions of history or the actions of others. That was a sentiment that was clear in my interview with Rural Americans and the first is that Rural Americans and they didnt use those words at all but two thingss that really stuck out o me was, were first privilege was defined differently for them. Privilege was about the ability to do what you want. The ability to have food onbl te table and just very basic stuff. I remember a farmer from iowa who was so interested. He was a really endearing person that he wrote me just recently and he said well you know when i interviewed him he said you know i was just at church the other day and the pastor was talking about privilege. I never thought about it like g that. Thats what it is. I can come and go as they please and thatin was interesting thate developed that freedom rather than the house are different view of privilege. The other thing that i think you get out that it wasnt their words but i had a few folks they look and work really hard for i have come from many. One man i spoke to in missouri who was adjudged he said i have friends who grew up on dirt floors and my wife had six siblings and they have no money and she works so hard to get where she is and i dont know how you can call this privilege. And why essentially she worked really hard to get here and why would you take away from that . That was his view on that was a sentiment that was echoed a number of times. And the flip side of that was the belief that if people didnt raise themselves up from the dirt poor kind of this idea of hard work in everybodys hard work will receive equal reward. I want to turn now to your chapter. I actually had not thought about the appalachia West Virginia drug problem in the same context as how you presented it and i thought that was fascinating about the top 20 counties with drug overdoses, 12 are in West Virginia. A lot of what you learned was this built upon mining and people who worked hard you may have back problems who were prescribed opioids andnd ended p with this huge challenge. In thehe same chapter you talk about donald trump then why vote for donald trump and i thought it was the best description that i have heard. He was a salesman of hope and that came from one of your interviews. So the attitude about addiction in america have changed. If we compare the opioid and fentanyl crisis with the crisis of crackcocaine and urban america, attitudes are different and i think they are a lot of people who would say those attitudes are different because of the populations that have been affected but to see this depth of despair and how that playsse into selfimage but also overall image in the country that Rural America in certain populations. Guest first of all i had to give a