Now i have the honor introducing jonathan. I. Go, oh, it is it is common me when i visit family and friends to be greeted by an article artistic depiction, a quote of the reverend dr. Martin luther jr plays prominently in the home ive known of the life and of dr. King since childhood. I revere and respect his legacy because the honor deserved and as a black american i owe so much to it. Growing up baptist i was privy to i was privy to sacred conversations about the works of dr. When i heard of jonathan book king a life i wondered and 2023 what could i learn from reading a biography about dr. King that i did not already know but i was eager to out. In fact, i have Meticulous Research and the ability to uncover significant make this book which is the first significant biography written of the civil rights icon in in decades and about 30 years. It makes a must read this is the first king biography to include recently declassified fbi files before reading it, i thought very good, hoover intensely disliked dr. But i Research Suggests that hoover was dangerously obsessed with the reverend as weve seen in the media recently and, the run up to this book release. Mr. Wright has also uncovered details that may cause some of us to rethink kings with malcolm x. Its a finding that could really change the view of and perspective of some of the Civil Rights Movement. And theres a lot, lot im looking forward to this. Great conversation we have chris set, a maryland freelance writer will be doing the interview with jonathan tonight. So please welcome jonathan i thank you. So a of nuggets before we get into serious stuff first of all as an atlanta, im just thrilled to be here talking to you about this book but ive also been stalking you twitter and watching what youve been doing leading up to this event. And i cant help ask the first question, which harder writing a book or promoting one . I definitely prefer writing it because i left alone and dont have anybody to blame but myself. If the social media world confuses me and i dont like it, but its if you want people to read books, thats what you have to do these days. So im happy to do it and im having fun. Were grateful to have you here in gaithersburg. My real first question, id like to hit you with a two parter. You mentioned early in the book that one of the kings first dreams was actually to be firefighter. So question for you is really twofold. The first part is, can you possibly imagine what it would have looked like if a young Martin Luther jr had shown up at a house fire . And secondly, what would have it what would it have looked like if he had chosen to stay in that profession and fight the flames of houses instead of Racial Injustice . Thats a great question. How many men in the audience today . The first thing they wanted to be when they were really little was a firefighter yeah. So he was normal and thats a big part of what i set out to do is you remind that hes normal. How many men women in the audience today wanted to be something whatever their parents were, the opposite of what their parents were doing for a so Martin Luther king not want to be a preacher either because father was a preacher, his maternal grandpa father was a preacher and he grew in a community surrounded by preachers. So Martin Luther king, mike, he was known at the time our little mike because his father was big mike. Little mike wanted to be anything but a preacher because thats what his father did. And he grew up surrounded the church. He learned to read the learned to recite the bible before he read. So even far as when he went to college at morehouse again, thats where his father went. He went to morehouse saying hes going to become a hed moved on from firefighter by that point and it said he wanted to be a doctor or a lawyer because he thought that would be a good way to help the community and perhaps you know engage in the struggle to defeat crow, to fight for justice. But the pull of the church was always there and even when he went in high school, he took a summer job. Think about this, martin. These are the things that either just blow my mind. First of all, they think of him as, mike, until hes like 18, 19, hes still calling himself mike after he took a summer job, high school and college, tobacco farming in connecticut, his first time visiting the north. And there on the tobacco farm, theyre looking for somebody to help out in the kitchen. And hes smart guy. So he volunteers to be a cook because he gets more food and better food and he also volunteers to lead the prayers. So heres this kid whos resisting even age 17, 18, saying, no, im not going to be a preacher, not going to be a preacher, not going to be a preacher. But he finds himself leading the prayers. All the other, you know, high school farmers who were working up in simsbury, connecticut, summer. So its pulling him. And then actually his second summer of tobacco farming, he gets pulled over by the police. We dont know why he and a bunch of friends driving and it might have just been because they were a car full of black men that they got pulled over and there were no charges filed. But we do know that martin mike little michael so worried about what his parents reaction going to be to the fact that he got had a in with the police that he called his parents to tell him about it and use that phone call to tell his father. He decided he wanted to be a preacher after all. So his friends. I interviewed one of his friends who worked as a tobacco farmer with that weather that summer and he said, you know, emil was not called to the to the ministry by a god. He was chased there by the police. So i see that youre on the chance to describe the scene of on a fire. Thats fair enough. Yeah, i think were all curious, but to kind jump ahead a little bit, if he had another career choice, how do you think, america, would look today . Well, this is the thing about any great figure in history, there are so many choices could have made where they they dont end up there. Right. He thought about going the university of edinburgh for doctorate degree. What happens if he goes to to scotland to study instead of boston. He may never come back. He would have certainly taken out of the american system where race. You know, certainly in boston there was no escape from racism. And he learned more northern racism on that during those years of his education. But if he had been in edinburgh, he might have decided just to stay over there a lot simpler when it comes to race relations. But who knows . Theres many of those moments. If he hadnt become a preacher, obviously very unlikely he might have become a lawyer. He might have gone to work for the naacp, but we dont. The important thing to me, its not about those accidental confer of history, the important things to me are the intentional ones. When he graduates from boston university, he had a choice of many jobs. He had job offers in the north he intentionally decided to go south even though coretta who by now he was in love with and engaged who want to she wanted to stay up north because she wanted to be a concert singer. Shed gone to the new england conservatory of music and she knew she could not have a career as a performer in the south. But Martin Luther king by now he is Luther King Jr as hes graduating from boston university. Hes not yet dr. Martin luther king, but hes Martin Luther king jr. Hes very intentional wanting to go south because he wants to be in the fight. He doesnt have any plans to become a leader of any movement. He just wants to run a church in the south where he can make a difference and eventual perhaps become a University Professor or maybe a university president. Thats his thats his career vision. But when the moment comes and again, this is about choice, when he gets to montgomery and a bus boycott begins. We all know theyre looking somebody who would be willing to address the first mass meeting. Thousands of people are gathering at holt Street Baptist Church on december 5th, 1955, trying to whats this going to be . Can we all to stay off the busses tomorrow . Can we do we want to stay off the busses indefinitely until the city integrates those busses . How long we do this and whos going to help decide and they ask king to be the the for the movement for the movement is there not malcolm to lead yet and hes not sure if he wants to do that because hes got new baby at home. Hes just getting used to his new church. And he just turned down a request to become a board member of the acp in alabama. But decides hes going to step up and makes a speech that day. That night. And for these thousands people who are not only filling the biggest in montgomery, but spilling out into streets, thousands of people to the where when king arrives, he cant even get the church. He has to abandon his car blocks away. And thats the night that he has to decide whether hes going to become Luther King Jr, in effect. And thats why i begin the book by saying on december 5th, 1955, a young black man became one of the Founding Fathers of america. And that was that was his choice to take that role and he didnt know how big it was going to get but he made the decision that he was willing to put himself into the breach and and put himself at risk because he certainly knew what kind of risks were involved in standing up to the system. Well speaking of decisions, im really intrigued how you chose to write this book. You mentioned early in the pages that some newly available had hit the world but what was the light bulb for you where you thought, oh im going to go take on one of the worlds biggest icons . You know, it happened so that i never even noticed that there wasnt a light bulb moment. I was working on my muhammad ali book for, i guess from about 2010 to 2015, 16th. And i was interviewing like harry belafonte, gregory, reverend jesse jackson. Andrew young. And i would ask them about the times in which muhammad ali met dr. King and. Then i just became curious and found myself asking more about king. So what was he like . And i just figured if youre going to get a chance to meet gregory and andrew young and, go to Harry Belafontes house and spend hours with him and. You dont and youre not curious about other people that theyve met. You. So i just took the interview beyond a little bit and started asking about king and and then when i got done with the ali book, i realized there were still dozens of people out who knew king, who i hadnt spoken to, maybe even hundreds, because king would only be, i should say only, but he would only be 94. Today, his older sister alive, harry belafonte, who just passed away he was 96. These people were older than king. And there was an opportunity to do what i figured be the last book in which you could interview people who knew. King so i just began it without even being sure that i could get a book contract or that there was a there would be demand for another king book. I just figured, if nothing else, im going to get their on tape. Im to run around. And thats what i did before covid hit. Thank god i traveled the country, interviewed 200 people, and id say about 100 of them knew king personally. I knew him well. And then when covid hit was actually a little bit of an advantage for me, because these folks were or a little bit on the old side and they were trapped at home with not much to do. And i could call them every day. And they were happy to hear from me and literally, literally reverend james lawson, whos one of my great heroes and i called him like three times a week for like months on end. And june dobbs , who . Dr. June, but who grew up with king auburn avenue childhood playmate, says that mlk, by the way, i used to cheat like hell at monopoly. Mel would never cheat. And would slap his brothers hand when he tried to anyway, i talked to her probably 100 times on the phone, visit her. Three times she was in a nursing home just outside of atlanta. And as if talked to her on 100 times, she probably told me same joke about was the only person i know. I never heard of the jokes, slightly bawdy ones about Martin Luther king told me a joke about one thing probably 25 times. Same joke. And i loved it every day. Laughter well, you got it. Im not going to the oh. Thats the first time we sell a lot of books. Gather around. Ill tell you the joke. Fair down in chapter, the seminarian, you say that king described his Mission Early on, and i thought this was such a small, subtle goal to discover a method the elimination of social evils piece of cake, right. How do you think. He did better than just about anybody in American History. That doesnt mean he succeeded. We still have some evils. But this is the thing. What does that goal really mean . His goal is to is to destroy social. What does that mean . Means hes reading the bible and he actually believes it does that so shocking right . Those of us who take the time to read the bible, probably believe it. But how many of us actually dedicate to making the bibles words live up to making to ourselves individually and our society . Live up to the words in the bible . And thats what king tried to do. And you dont you might say, well, of course, he was a preacher thats what all preachers do. But he put his on the line for it. Day after day. And when he knew he was risking his life. And certainly he knew that day, december 5th, 1955, when he stood up in front of the whole Street Baptist Church, he knew that the wasnt going to be happy about this and that this not hypothetical. There still lynchings in alabama in 1955, but after his home gone got bombed after shotguns were through the doors and windows of his house after was stabbed in the chest at bookstore in manhattan after the fbi after his own government brought down the full powers. Its top Law Enforcement agency, to try to destroy him, to urge him to commit to try to break his marriage. After all of that, he still kept doing it. He still kept acting as if he he could rid the world of social evils. And that to me, well, thats i wrote a book about him because that to me makes him maybe the greatest american ive ive ever known. And read about. That is a tough answer. Ask a good follow up question to you. Got me preaching a little bit. Oh well, okay. Well, i have a question later on very subject. So one of the things that struck me and i didnt know how consciously aware you may have been of as a biographer, do you find sometimes that when youre writing, you end up taking on a bit of the voice of that subject . Because there are paragraphs in the book where there words and i feel like im in front of him and im experiencing a bit of a revival myself. Did was it infectious and did that affect your writing process . Well, yeah. You live with this voice in your head for six years and youre trying to tell his story. Im my job as a as a writer. I always feel like its to be invisible. I do not want you to ever stop when youre reading and go. Oh, wow, jonathan is a wonderful writer. Look at that sentence. I want you to be in kings and in his life and. Some writers are really beautiful writers, and i think that sometimes that distracts from the story. I want to really a beautiful who does not distract from the story i want you to be thinking about the story and kings story. And if im getting spirit, if im getting that tone, that you feel like youre hearing a sermon or your hearing this told in a way that makes you feel like king is with you in the room then im doing my job but i would also say just on a a practical standpoint there were moments where i couldnt use kings words and i had to try to create the effect of his speeches because the family would not give me permission to quote from his at length from his speeches which we can talk about if youre interested in that kind of nitty gritty. But as a result of that, you will find passages especially. During the great speeches at the march on washington example, where i only use a certain number of his actual words, and im trying to make sure you dont notice that i want you to feel like all the words are his, but i am legally bound to use only a certain number which was a really interesting exercise writing for me. Well, i would definitely to come back to that. There are some other places, the book, where some of your words are so subtle yet so powerful, that as i was reading them, i sort of felt like i was getting hit with a punch from muhammad ali. And one of the lines it really struck that you wrote, you said, describe kings wedding ceremonies. What happened with credit that night since no hotels in the city would accommodate them . They spent the first night of their marriage in the guest bedroom of funeral parlor. And i read that and my heart sank. And my question is, why didnt you take a more nonviolent to literary change with some of these paragraphs . That one hit me pretty hard. Well, thats my job, is to try to make the facts hit you hard. Because think about it all know in grade school, kids know that america was segregated in the south that black folks couldnt ride the busses and they had to sit in the back of the train and that they couldnt try and Close Department stores. We know that stuff but it doesnt hit you sometimes because you dont think of it in the context of someones life. But when you think about the fact that these people just had what should have been the most magical day of their life, they just committed to spend the rest of their lives together. Its time to start the honeymoon and they have to basically on a cot the back of a funeral home that night because there are no hotels that will let them say that that is the kind of fact that i hope, you know, hits you like a punch in the gut. It did. And it did change subjects just a little bit. One of the one of the one of the areas that people are talking the most with your book is how greatly humanized it. And talking in great detail about his Extracurricular Activities with women and his other flaws is someone who grew up with this image of him high atop a mountain, preferably someday stone mountain. What were your thoughts in being that explicit and such an icon . And then did you have to put some thought into how candid you were willing to be. I put a lot of thought into it for sure, but then the number reason i wanted to write this book is, because over the last 50 years or so, especially, we established a National Holiday for king. We have watered down his life, his story. We watered down his we teach kids in kindergarten about i have a dream and judgi