Interesting story. Thank you much, everybody. Good morning. Im chris fernie, a member of the Lincoln Forum executive committee. And we will get right to the introduction of our two wonderful morning. Edna greene medford, the grande dame of 19 century after american historians. A frequent speaker and moderator. Our Lincoln Forum, a member of the forums executive committee and recognized star on various cspan programing. Edna holdson university and the university of illinois and a ph. D. From the university of maryland she is a professor of history emerita at howard, where she also as the chair of the Department History and interim dean, the college of arts and sciences she is the author of lincoln and emancipation and coauthor of the emancipation proclamation. Three views she was a recipient of the john wise simon a Lifetime Achievement award from the Ulysses Grant associa a of the Lincoln Academy of illinois and awarded the order of lincoln the states highest honor by the governor of illinois. For her study of the president and the civil war. Matthew norman is, a the university of cincinnati blue. Ash College Educated knox college and the university of illinois, urbanachampaign where earned his ph. D. He served earlier as acting of civil war era studies and a visiting professor right here at gettysburg college. Matt has contributed chapters to ouroved abraham African American war veterans and Abraham Lincoln, war and memory and, fraught with great difficulty. Reconstruction. His labors of love also include serving coeditor with fred lee hord. Of knowing him by heart. Africanamericans on Abraham Lincoln. This segment of our Program Allows us to eavesdrop on a conversation between and matt as they discuss the heartwarming highly emotional and keenly relationship between president lincoln and black americans who knew him by. I give you professors and norman. Good morning can everyone hear me . Excellent. Excellent. Benjamin quarrels, who was a pioneer africanamerican history in author of the book lincoln and the , along with several other books like the and the civil war, Frederick Douglass. He did a book on africanamerican in the american revolution. So and a number of books. He was a true pioneer in africanamerican history. I he said many, many years ago in the sixties that lincoln became lincoln because of the. And it was the latter who first reflected the image of lincoln. That was to live. In other words, it was the africanamerican and who actually created and encouraged the great emancipator image. And so quarrels, i think was was partially right even before lincoln issued the proclaimed, Frederick Douglass had said that enslaved people had credited lincoln with some things that he had not achieved yet. And so they were already predisposed to see lincoln as a great emancipator. And in the decades that followed the war, black leaders fed the emancipator lincoln for the purpose of both encouraging africanamericans to be worthy of l and to remind white americans that they should finish the work that they imagined. Lincoln begun meaning securing, but once the image was accepted by americans there was no room for criticism of any action or in action. Lincoln took that involved black people. So when . In 1 w. E. B. Dubois wrote a very assessment of that was less than he was roundly attacked, and he actually had to write what some of us think was a retraction to sort of smooth t feathers a bit. And so one of the things that i remember him saying that i think we all need to remember, he says lincoln big enough to be inconsistent that just because he didnt do as quickly as some African Americans an americans would have, there was so much that he had done. So to criticize is one aspect of him did mean that africanamerican or anyone else saw him unworthy of praise. So wha professor norman and professor who could not be with us today, what theyve accomplished with this book and i do absolute utterly love the book. Theres so much here for us to to put out. I had to. What theyveccomplished in this volume is volume is to show that africanamericans always had a nuanced view of lincoln africanamericans toward. Our 16th president was never monolithic. And so, you know, we sometimes think that there was a period time when africanamericans loved lincoln and then all of a sudden africanamericans hated lincoln or didnt care much about him at all. And what theyve shown is there never that kind of demarcation that they had always been criticism him that always been praise of him. And to this day, that still continues. If i have, i interrupt it correctly. But you were saying so if you would comment on a little bit how how accurate was quarrels about africanamericans being responsible for this image . Can you all hear me okay . Okay. Well, fred andby his work and back when i was kind of ending my tenure here at gettysburg, fred contacted. Hed been my professor as, an undergraduate at knox, and he said and he had read some of the things id published. And he said, well, we do a project together. I said, okay, fred, what did you have in mind . And he said, well, what about something africanamericans lincoln . I said, thats a great topic. Can we narrow it down a little . And and he said, well has ever done an anthology of black writings on lincoln. And and i said, no thats that idea. And so we started working on this in 2011 and what we put together a is an anthology of black writings on lincoln that begins with Frederick Douglass in 1858 when he first takes notice of lincoln. And when we started this project earlier in the century we thought a good stopping point would 2009 with the lincoln and president obamas speech in springfield. And so what we found hundreds of and the the size of the book might suggest that we didnt leave anything but we actually did we were we we made i think i hope judicious select ones. But when corell says that lincoln became because of africanamericans, i hope what people can see with the over hundred 50 voices weve assembled here is just how important africanamericans have remember Abraham Lincoln, particular as the great emancipator. And so you can see how these views evolved over how things changed, perhaps how things didnt change. And so i thinkthere to suggest the central city africanamericans in we view lincoln and i hope that that people will look at this book and see see a different side of. I was surprised pleasantly by the diversity of voices. We as historians have a tendency to rely on Frederick Douglass when were looking at how africanamericans are respond to what lincoln is doing. And i think we do that because was so eloquent and he was so prolific. His about absolutely everything. Heso you can find those kinds of things easily. But what youve done here is youve included a lot of people that most of you will have never of. And these are ordinary people, soldiers ministers others are mothers writing to lincoln about their and telling him you know he needs to protect them more. Soldiers writing about unequal and that kind of thing. And youre also looking a diversity of sources in terms of letters, speech is editorials, poetry even. And so i think it gives the volume a kind of flavor thdont in the in the regular, you know, history books. So i was very much pleased tha tell us a little bit about the people who you have been included. Well, before we do that, tell us you chose. There were so sources u could have used. How did you choose these . There are theres that. When we got into it, we had no idea. I but we had no idea about the depth and breadth of sources that we would find. And so in the selection process, we we didnt have an agenda other than to present people with a wide variety of views. So youll find soldiers some of whom are very critical of lincoln, some of whom are very favorable towards. So we have people who are very positive people who are very negative. Douglas, of course, is in there but hes just one of over 150. So theres theres people like amos beeman, who was a congregational minister and he commemorates first annersary of the emancipation proclamation in 1864. And i think he reflects a lot of this complexity that we see where he says that this the emancipation prokes lincoln but he also says that lincoln is far from being a man in the human science of freedom. And i really love that phrase, human science of freedom. So the emancipation proclamation in perfect. Lincoln was not perfect. And africanamericans out these imperfections. But at the same time, they work to make the proclamation more perfect through, their words and through their actions. Absolutely. I got the impression, your book that the response of africanamericans lincoln it was linear terms of, you know, love for lincoln. 1863 and dislike of lincoln after Lauren Bennetts first 1968 article in ebony and then his book forced into glory. It was more about what lincoln was doing or was not doing at any given time. And so you see the shift in attitude as a consequence. So, for instance if lincoln is talking about colonization, hes more likely to be criticized. Absolutely. Ey are supporting his colonization schemes because africanamericans were involved in colonies before lincoln decided to this, but they saw it not as colonizing as immigration. And so saw it very differently. If he was talking, say, about just emancipation, his views on emancipation. And we know that lincolns views on were that it should gradual it be done with the consent of the owners of enslaved people that. It should be compensated not to the enslaved person, but compensation to the owners and colonization. And so there many and there were Many Americans, just africanamericans, but there were Many American eyes, mostly abolitionist who felt that he was slow. They didnt understand why lincolns idea of deportation, his his his name for colonization and why that needed to go with emancipation, why there couldnt be immediate emancipation. So yourespond ending to that. This idea of accepting black soldiers into the military. Many, many africanamericans writing to him encouraging him to accept black men as and of course lincoln and congress in general did not feel that black men would be brave to stand toe to toe with their former owners on the battlefield. Boy, did they prove wrong. And eventually, because the union army needed men they decide to bring black men in. And then once black were in the military, there was the issue unequal pay and unequal treatment. So if you could talk us a bit about how black people responded, some of those issues. Sure. Well, its very interesting when douglass first takes notice of to lincolns divided speech. And douglass is very favorable. But then when when lincoln is nominated and then in his first inaugural address, douglass and other africanamericans are quite critical. They think, well, weve i thought elected an antislavery president. Why is he offering all of concessions to the rebels . But then once lincoln issues preliminary proclamation, its really remarkable how how begin to change. And you have the enlistment of black and some of them. One of my favorite items in the book, a letter from john proctor and in South Carolina. And hes freed by the emancipation proclamation and he writes to lincoln in the spring of 1863. And he talks about how hes been freed, how he has in the army, how hes looking forward to a little bit of revenge on his on his masters former master. But but then he says to lincoln he apologizes for his writing. Hes writing he says, the only education i had i stole from my master, former master. And then he says. My one regret is that i wont have the pleasure seeing you with my own eyes. And then he writes to lincoln, o my fellow citizens of the united states. And i think that letter from encapsulates how the emancipation proclamation and the enlistment of black soldiers could be. So its a very moving. But then we also have letters public letters written by a soldier in the fifth massachusetts cavalry. He wrote under a pseudonym, i under a pseudonym. And he writes in an open letter to a newspaper in the summer, 1864. So the Election Campaign is starting to ramp up and says, i dont think black people should support lincoln. He supported colonization. Black soldiers arent being treated equally. He has a long list of reasons black people should not support lincoln. And then the democrats nominate general and the soldier a follow up letter a few weeks later. And he says, i still dont like lincoln. That much, but hell be way better than than mcclellan. So you see in those two examples the theferences. And then as you move forward in time, it becomes even more fascinating for us to see these these different certainly you have you have douglass. But then you have others. Theres theres one i really like from 1909. And so you find africanamericans celebrating lincolns birthday before white people. But then in 1909, forhe centennial, this is a big deal and an increasing of white people are also celebrating. Lincolns birthday. But what happens by 19 nine is you have white southerners celebrating lincolns birthday as well. And you see lincolns image being used as kind of a bridge to reconciliation. And at the same time see black voices pushing against that. And theres a professor. Hes a professor, virginia. His name is john gandy. And he, i think, really these nuances and complexities is where he says that lincoln supported colonization. He he waited a while before issuing the emancipation proclamation. But lincoln believed the declaration of independence, and he believed that it applied to people at a time very few white people were willing to to hold those beliefs. So just in that one item from 1990, you see these how you can you can admire lincoln and praise him. And he says lincoln will be immortal. But then at the same time he says hes hes not perfect. Hes not perfect now. Although we acknowledge that is this nuance attitude about lincoln. I think we would have to agree that sometime between 1863 and 2023, there hasrms of about lincoln. And historians have africanamerican attitudes about that. Its and historians some historians have said its a consequence of black having their own heroes. Dr. King and in other who were part of the civil rights that africanamericans became aware of the role that they played in terms liberation, both being in the army, in the navy and, just liberating themselves as well. What do you think the reason is that there has been sort by a downturn . I dont think its as bad as some historians have suggested but there certainly been a bit of a shift. Yes, i think it that its been maybe exaggerated a bit when we do have lauren seminal essay from 1968 that came out in ebony magazine asks the provocative question, was abe lincoln a white supremacist . And bennett emphatically, yes yes. He was. But i think the the mistake that people fall into and i hope book helps helps clear this up that bennetts an voice and you have to you h saying but hes one voice out of many. And so when you look at the 1960s. Yes. Is a very important, tumultuous in our history. And do see people like bennett julius lester, malcolm, theyre all very critical of lincoln. But at the same, you have benjamin corales publishing his book and you have john hope franklin, who made a really great speech here in gettysburg on the anniversary of lincolns gettysburg address in 1965. And in that speech, franklin says hes responding to. The White Citizens Councils and had published these editorials, quoting from lincolndouglas debates, the part of the debates the fourth debate at charleston, wherent believe in the social and political equality of the white and black races and the White Citizens Council was using this to argue that if lincoln were alive in the 1960s, he would be opposed to, like the Voting Rights act, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and franklin, you would have to be deranged to to Abraham Lincoln into a racist who would support the citizens councils. So but i do think you you see, even in back to the 1930s when you africanamericans are beginning to support it, the Democratic Party, and theyre leaving the party of lincoln. And speech from Arthur Mitchell whos the first africanamerican democrat in congress. And he gets a really hard time from republican. Theres a republican from kentucky just denounces him on the floor of the house. How dare you leave the party of lincoln . This is disloyalty. And so theres a lot of interesting things happening in the thirties as well, when when africanamerican voting behavior begins to change and many are leaving the party of lincoln. But then we also have an example from 1936 and and this is where Historical Research be very serendipitous. And i found this in newspaper and its a woman living in terre haute, indiana named grace evans. And and she gives this speech where shes saying, im not leaving the party of lincoln is the reason why imbl a marriage in and do things that ive done in my life. And theres way im leaving the republican party. And i this to fred. And he well, grace evans in my fathers church. So freds freds father was minister in indiana. And as it turned out this this woman was a member of, freds fathers church. So she shes in the book as well. And course. Excuse me. Of course, africanamericans leaving the republican partyblican party is becoming more and more conservative and they are supporting know justices who are. And theres one instance where mothers are sent to europe to ask to visit graves of their their sons whove died in world war. And white women are sent under regular transportation and black women are sent with inferior. So you have those kinds of things that are occurring. And the Democratic Party certainly looks better. Africanamericans, by that time. And certainly it doesnt help. It hurt that Eleanor Roosevelt steps in from time to time, you know, to do things that are africanamericans. You notice i didnt say franklin because, the story is still out about frank. I mean, you know theres theres some things he did, but there some o