Committee. And we will get right touction o wonderful speakers this morning. Edna greene medford, the grae dame of 19 century after american historians. A frequent speaker and moderator. Our lincoln forum, a member of the forums executive committee and recognized star on various cspan programing. Edna holds degrees Hampton University and the university of illinois and a ph. D. From the university of professor of history emerita at howard, where she also as the chair of the Department History and interim dean, the college of arts and sciences she is the author of lincoln and emancipation proclamation. Of the three views she was a recipient of the john wise simon a Lifetime Achievement association and was previously inducted as a of the Lincoln Academy of illinois and awarded thes highet honor by the governor of illinois. For her study of the president Matthew Norman is, associate professor of history at the university of cincinnati blue. Ash College Educated knox college and the university of illinois, urbanachampaign, where earned his ph. D. He served earlier as aqctinof civera studg professor right here at gettysburg college. Matt has contributed chapters to our beloved abraham African American war veterans and Abraham Lincoln, war and memory and, fraught with great difficulty. Lincoln and reconstruction. His labors of love also include 8serving coeditor with fred lee hord. Of knowing him by heart. Africanamericans on Abraham Lincoln. Nt of our Program Allows us to eavesdrop on a conversation between and matt as they discuss the heartwarming emotional and keenly important relationship between president lincoln and black americans wh by. I give you professors and norman. Good morning can everyone hear me . Excellent. Excellent. Benjamin quarrels, who was a pioneer africanamerican history in author of the book lincoln and the , along with several the civil war, Frederick Douglass. He did a book on africanamerican in the american revolution. So and a number of books. He was a true pioneer in africanamerican history. I he said many, many years ago in t sixties that lincoln became lincoln because of the. And it was the latter who first reflected the image of lincoln. That was to live. In other words, it was the africanamerican and who actually created and encouraged the great emancipator image. And so quarrels, i think, was was partiay right even before lincoln issued the proclaimed, Frederick Douglass had said that enslaved people had credited jlincoln with some things that e had not achieved yet. And so they were already predisposed to see lincoln as a great emancipator. And in the decades that followed the war, black leaders fed the emancipator image of lincoln for the purpose of both encouraging ■ africanamericans to be worthy of lincolns sacrifice and to remind white americans that they should finish thelincoln begun , but once the image was accepted by americans, there was no room for criticism of any action or in action. Lincoln took so when . In 1922, w. E. B. Dubois wrote a very assessmentthan he was roun, and he actually had to write what some of us think was a retraction to sort of smooth the ruffled feathers a bit. And so one of the things that i hink we all need to remember, he says lincoln big enough to be inconsistent that just because he didnt do as quickly as some African Americans and other americans would have, there was so much that he had done. So to criticize is one aspect of him did mean that africanamerican or anyone else saw him unworthy of so what professor norman and professor who could not be with us today, what theyve accomplished with this book and i do absolute utterly love the book. Theres so much here for us to to put out. I had to. What theyve accomplished in this volume is volume is to show that africanamericans always a nuanced view of lincoln and that the of africanamericans toward. Our 16th president was never monolithic. So, you know, we sometimes think that there was a period time when africanamericans ■o undergraduate at knox, and he said and he had read some of the things id published. And he said, well, we do a project together. I said, okay, fred, what did you have in mind . And he said, well, what about something africanamericans, lincoln . I said, thats a great topic. Can we narrow it down a little . Andid, well, has ever done an anthology of black writings on lincoln. Thats thats a great idea. And so we started working on in 2011 and what we put together a is an anthology of black writings on lincoln that begins witfr douglass in 1858 when he first takes notice of lincoln. And when we started this project earlier in the century we thought a gotopping poin would 2009 with the lincoln and president obamas speech in springfield. And so what we found hundreds of documents and the the size of the book might suggest that we didnt leave anything but we actually did we were we we made i think i hope judicious select ones. But when corell says that lincolnafricanamericans, i hopt people can see with the over hundred 50 voices weve assembled here is just how important africanamericans have been in shaping how we remember Abraham Lincoln, particular as the great emancipator. And so you can see how these views evolved over how things changed, perhaps how things didnt change. And so i think quarrels absolutely correct. There to suggest the central city africanamericansq in we view lincoln and i hope that that people will look at this book and see see a different side of. I was surprised by or pleasantly by the diversity of as historiay to rely on Frederick Douglass when were looking at how africanamericans are respond to what lincoln is doing. And i think we do that because was so eloquent and he was so prolific. His about absolutely everything. He had three newspapers you know so you can find those kinds of things easily. But what youve done here is lot of people that most of you will have never of. And these are ordinary people, soldiers, ministers others are mothers writing to lincoln about their and telling him you know, he needs to protect them more. Soldiers writing about unequal and that kind of thing. And youre also looking a diversity of letters, speech is editorials, poetry, even. And so i think it kind of flavoe dont in the in the regular, you know, history books. So was vy mu pleased that. Tell us a little bit about the people who you have been included. Well, before we do that, tellerd have used. How did you choose these . There are theres that. When we got into it, we had no idea. I mean, we had some idea, but we had no idea about the depth and breadth of sources that we would ■ and so in the selection process, we we didnt have an agenda other than to present people with a wideie find soldiers somf whom are very critical of lincoln, some of whom are very favorable towards. So we have people who are very positive people who are very negative. Douglas, of course, is in there, but hes just one of over 150. So theres theres people like amos beeman, who was a congregational minisr and he commemorates First Anniversary of the emancipation proclamation in 1864. And i think he reflects a lot of this complexity that weee this e emancipation proclamation makes lincoln but he also says that lincoln is f in the human science of freedom. And i really love that phrase, human science of freedom. So the emancipation proclamation in itself was not perfect. Lincoln was not perfect. And africanamericans out these s. But at the same time, they work to make the proclamation more perfect through, their words and through theirabsolutely. I got the impression, your book, that the response of africanamericans lincoln it was not so much it was not linear terms of, you know, love for lincoln. 1863 and dislike of lincoln after Lauren Bennetts first 1968 article in ebony and then his book it was more about what lincoln was doing or was not doing at any given time. And so■ you see the shift in attitude as a consequence. So, for instance if lincoln is criticized. T colonization, hes absolutely. They are some people who are supporting his colonization schemes because africanamericans were invve con decided to this, but they saw it not as colonizing as immigration. And differently. If he was talking, say, about just emancipation, his views on emancipation. And we know that lincolns views on were that it should gradual it be done with the consent of the■o owners of enslaved people that. It should be compensated not to the enslaved person, but compensation to the owners and colonization. And so there many and there were Many Americans, just africanamericans, but there were Many American eyes, mostly abolitionist who felt that he was slow. They didnt understand why lincolns idea of deportation, his his his name for colonization and why that needed to go with emancipation, why there couldnt be emancipation. So you have a lot of people respond ending to that. This idea of accepting black soldiers into the military. Many, many africanamericans writing to him, encouraging him to aep as and of course lincoln and congress in general did not feel that black men would be brave to ane to toe with their former owners on the battlefield. Boy, did they prove wrong. And e union army needed men, they decide to bring black men in. And then once black were in the military, there was the issue unequal pay and unequal treatment. So if you could talk us a bit about how black people responded, some of those issues. Sure. Well, its very interesting when douglass first takes notice of lincoln, 1858, its in response to lincolns divided speech. And douglass is very■■5 but then when when lincoln is nominated and then in his first inaugural address, douglass and other africanamericans are quite critical. They think, well, weve i thought elected an antislavery president. Why is he offering all of concessions to the rebels . But then once lincoln issues preliminary proclamation, its really remarkable how how begin to change. And you have the enlistment of black and some of them. One of my favorite items in the , a letter from john proctor and in South Carolina. And hes freed emancipation proclamation and he writes to lincoln in the spring of 1863. And he talks about how hes been freed, how he has in the army, how hes looking forward to a little bit of revenge on his on his masters former master. But■8 but then he says to linco, he apologizes for his writing. Hes writing he says, the only education i had i stole from my master, former master. And then he says. My one regret is that i wont have the pleasure seeing you eyes. And then he writes to lincoln, please remember me to my fellow citizens of the united states. And i think that letter encapsulates how the emancipation proclamation and the enlistment of black soldiers could be. So moving. But then we also have letters public letters written by a soldier in the fifth massachusetts cavalry. He wrote under a pseudonym, i wish know exactly who he was, but he wrote under a pseudonym. And he writes in an open letter summer, 1864. So the Election Campaign is starting to ramp up and says, i dont think black people should support lincoln. He supported colonization. Black soldiers arent being treated equally. He has a long list of reasons black people shod not support lincoln. And then the democrats nominate general writes. A follow up letter a few weeks later. And he says, i still dont like lincoln. That much, but hell be way better than than mcclellan. So you see in those two examples, the the differences. And then as you move forward in time, it becomes even more fascinating us to see these these different nuanced views of lincoln. Certainly you have you have douglass. But then you have others. Theres theres one i really like from 1909. And so you find africanamericans celebrating lincolns birthday before whitee centennial, this is a big deal and an increasing of white people are also celeating. Lincolns birthday. But what happens by 19 nine is you have white southerners celebrating lincolns birthday as well. And you see lincolns image being used as kind of a bridge to reconciliation. And at the same time see black voices pushing against that. And theres a professor. Hes a professor, virginia. And he, i think, really these nuances and complexities is where he says that lincoln supported before issuing the emancipation proclamation. But lincoln believed the declaration ofepdence, and he believed that it applied to people at a time very few white people were willing to to hold those beliefs. So just that one item from 1990, you see these how you can you can admire lincoln and praise him. And he says lincoln will be immortal. But then at the same time he says hes hes not perfect. Hes not perfect now. Although we acknowledge that is this nuance attitude about lincoln. I think we would have to agree that sometime between 1863 and 2023, there has been shift in terms of about lincoln. And historiansican attitudes abt that. Its and historians some historians have said its a consequence oflack having their own heroes. Dr. King and in other who were part of the civil rights that became aware of the role that they played in terms liberation, both being in tharmy and, just liberating themselves as well. What do you think the reason is that there has been sort by a downturn . ■i dont think its as bad as some historians have suggested, but there certainly been a bit of a shift. Yes, i think it that its been maybe exaggerated a bit when we do have lauren seminal essay from 1968 thatame inmagazine ase question, was abe lincoln a white supremacist . And bennett emphatically, yes, yes. He was. W all very critical of lincoln. But at the same, you have benjamin corales publibook and e franklin, who made a really great speech here in gettysburg on thegettysburg address in 196. And in that speech, franklin says hes responding to. The White Citizens Councils and had published these editorials, quoting from lincolndouglas debates, the part of the debates the fourth debate at charleston, where lincoln says that he doesnt believe in the social and political equality of the white and black races and the White Citizens Council was using this to argue that if lincoln were alive in the 1960s, he would be opposed to, like the Voting Rights act, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and franklin, you would have to be deranged to to into a racist wht the White Citizens Councils. So but i do think you you see, even to the 1930s when you africanamericans are beginning to support it, the democratic party, and theyre l. And we have a speech from arthur mitchell, whos the first africanamerican democrat in congress. And he gets a really hard time from republican. Theres a republican from kentucky just denounces him on the floor of the house. How dare you leave the party of lincoln . This is an act of disloyalty. And so theres a lot of interesting things happening in the thirties as■l well, when whn africanamerican voting behavior begins to change and many are leaving the party of lincoln. But then we also have an example from 1936 and and this is where Historical Research be very serendipitous. And i found this in newspaper and its a woman living in terre haute, indiana named grace evans. And and she gives this speech where shes saying, im not leaving the party of able to hae a marriage in and do things that ive done in my life. And theres way im leaving the Republican Party. And i this to fred. And he well, grace evans in my fathers church. So freds freds father was minister in indiana. And as it turned out this this woman was a member of, freds so she shes in the book as well. And course. Excuse me. Of course, africanamericans leaving the republican■ party te 1930s because the Republican Party is becoming more and more conservative and they are ■ supporting know justices who are. And theres one instance where mothers are sent to europe to ask to visit graves of their their sons whove died in world war. And white women are sent under regularransportation and black women are sent with inferior. So you have those kinds of things that are occurring. And the democraticar better. Africanamericans, by that time. And certainly it doesnt help. It hurt that Eleanor Roosevelt steps in from time t time, you know, to do things that are very gratifying to africanamericans. You notice i didnt say franklin because, the story is■h still ot about frank. I mean, you know, theres theres some things he did, but there some other things. But it was eleanor who actually . Africanamericans embraced. I think, speaking of the 1930s. You an opportunity to look at the wpa slave and so you know we can assume during the war an immediate lie after the war africanamericans who had been enslaved would certainly see lincoln probably as a great emancipator. But what are they thinking after theyve been out of slavery for a number of years and in the middle of the depression . Mm. Thats a fascinating collection of sources. And i went through all of those interviews and youll find in the bookom s selections dont we dont include everything but i hope we include a kind of a representative sample of those. Fascinating interviews. So you have some people, as you might expect, who say lincoln is the great emancipate of his father, abraham, grateful for all that he did. And then there are there are people who say, well, he he may have freed us, but he didnt want to. And when he anything to help ust established as as freed people. And then what really me about the wpa interviews are the people who say that they met lincoln and lincoln emerges as this kind of mythological character. And so they talk about this shabbily dressed man and one of them says, well, this shabbily dressed guy, a gold cane behind the door. And then he left. And then he wrote back and he said, im Abraham Lincoln. And so you have these stories about these encounters with lincoln, which didnt happen. But shows just how powerful lincoln is as a as ■mmn image. Hes become a part of africanamerican folklore. Yes, it is just fascinating. You know, lincoln shows up. He has dinner. Yes. Or he sleeps in th