Transcripts For CSPAN2 The 20240704

A lovable christian, devoted citizen and faithful friend. So i think thats just so you know, they would have this. Thank you so much for that, wendy. Please thank our panel for. Thank you. Thankn ■ ■clet me introduce ours im going to do so in alphabetical order. So it probablwill notto to whath they speak. Soirst, jake Jake Friefeld is the new director of center for lincoln studies at the university of illinois springfield. Earlier, he was illinois and midwest studies Research Historian at the Abraham Lincoln president ial library and museum, and he is the latest addition, a contingent of of Springfield Young scholars who have begun coming to forum. And were delighted thatre participating. His recent book is first migrants how homesteaders quest for land and freedom heralded americas great migration. Who was here for the second time is the director of research and interpretation at the abraham president ial library and museum in springfield for years he history. The university of arkansas. Hes the author of manual mental. Oscar dunn and his radical fight in reconstruction louisiana. And that was published. In 2021. John c is a professor of history at stonehill college. Hes the author of lincoln and reconstruction, which came out in 2013 for the cq press. Concise lincoln series, which has just won the lincoln forums wendy allen for its accomplishment in so many memorable brief lincoln volumes over the. Edit, i should, just a little advertisement by johns amazing wife sylvia rodrigue. Hiss freedoms crescent the civil war and the destruction of slavery in the Lower Mississippi valley. So now, jake bryan and john, please take away. Thank you, harold. Thank you, everybody, for being here. Its a great hotospeak at this e organization. This panel, with my two esteemed colleagues. I will be speaking for about 5 minutes to try to give an overat im doing in this book, even though its 500 pages. So i guess thats about hundred pages per minute is i have. So ill just give youerview andl lead to a general conversation on this topic. Okay. As the subtitle■b indicates, its the civil war and the destruction of slavery in the Lower Mississippi valley. And so in essence, what this book is, emancipation and the abolition of slavery in the mississippi valley. And what i mean by that are the four states from this area that seceded and joinednfederacy. So arkansas, tennessee, louisiana and mississippi. It does take into account the border states of missouri and kentucky as necessary in order to understand whats going on in area. But theyre not essential to the story. I should also note that im n plantation and slavery areas of this region. And im taking you know, tennessee is a is a weirdly configured state. Right. But its west tennessee thats really part of the of the plantation slavery society, though. It is to look at the state level developments. Okay. And so what im trying to do in this book is to bring into a cohent narrative the military story, the Major Political developments, particularly in louisiana, tennessee and arkansas. Theres never really a unionist mississippi and then also in washington, d. C. , and with the national. And then itso incorporate the great work that that has been done on basically the on the ground destruction of slavery by the slaves themselves. An d whici part of in my own o this, to this scholarly revolution. So its an attempt to pull all of this togethero single on this vitally important region. And i dont think this audience needs to be reminded of the importance of the mississippi river. Right. And this area to american and to the the confederacy, the outcome of the civil war. And i would suggest to the outcome of the d there indeed at literature on all aspects of this area of military wartime, they. And so but this is the first book really to pull all of this together. Theres no other single book that looks at this vitally area as as an entity. So thats you an overall description. Now, in a way, theres two central themes in sment and ill try be as brief as possible with those. Of all this area includes what i would call all five dimensions of wartime emancipation and abolition. And im going to run through them very quickly. Okay. So you dont have to necessarily try to follow, but first, firstly, we have what we would lited military emancipation before emancipation proclamation by union troops as they gained territory. So thats under the sec, the the confiscation and various other measures. And this was supposed to make, for instance, distinguish between loyal and disloyal slaveholders. Okay. Secondly, we have what we would call universal military emancipation under the emancipation proclamation. Now, when i say universal, i dont mean everywhere the united everywhere designated areas, states and thereof. Right. But this made no distinction between loyal and disloyal slaveholders. Right. And so thats thse part or the second dimension. Thirdly, we have from the proclamation, as we know, all of tennessee is excluded ■ the also louisiana, new orleans and the surrounding. And this is a concession to wartime unionists in those areas governments. Ing loyal fourthly we have state level abolition arkansas in early 186 for the first state to do so. Louisiana later on in 1864. And then tennessee in early 1865. Under wartime reconstruction by unionists. Right. And fifthly, we have federal abolition under under civilian authority. Ns reconstruct asian program. And then, of course, the 15th amendment, which is ratified in december of 1865. And i should that my book is basically going from lincolns election in november of 1860. ■b with ratificationy years of the of the 13th amendment in 1865. The other second thing that im trying to do in th. And here have to try to be brief. And i promise ill try to offer something of a of how the war from the north becomes a war to preserve the union to, a war for freedom. Right. And we all know this, all familiar with this. And its been invoked many times in the sessions that weve had in the last of days. But let me suggest here that, you know, for all of theres no question that the emancipation proclamation was one of the truly transformative moments, not just in the civil war, but in all of american history. But i think justifiably so focus on the emancipation proclamation, the process by which lincoln came to the proclamation, and all of the factors are involved there. But to the point where where the abolition abolition almost an afterthought, and i think some historians sometimes even use that term that almost logisticsa year and a half to get to the emancipation proclamation but then it takes three years to get from the proclamation and to the final ratification of of the of the amendment. And many people said, you know, slavery is dead after the proclamation military victory. Slavery is dead. Many people said that at the time. Many historian is. Repe is that many people at the time were also vitally aware of the limitations of the proclamation. We know that thats a familiar story. Right. But heres the problem. Its how were in, right. With without while ensuring slavery is is going to abolished right. To ensure that the seceded states come back to the union with free state. Now, lets imagine for a moment theres no 13th amendment. That was the reality before the 13th amendment. There was no 13th amendment. But we offer we also assume that the 13th amendment wall even be. And so we draw a Straight Line from the emancipation proclamation to 13th amendment. But no, he was thinking in terms of a federal abolition, an amendment that would be imposed upon the states against their will, even abolitstalways that e would be abolished by the states. That was that was standard 1 to 1 thinking of slavery and the union and the constitution. Were exceptions. But even radical even the the abolitionist argued that it would be the states that would have that would abolish slavery not the national government. And this mentality exists into the war. And for the first few first couple of years during the war right and the amintroduced intol december of 1863. And then, as we know, even thats a very complicated story hjand many people did not beliee that this was going to work out. So so that like thats the right. How do you get the seceded states into the union ensuring the abolition of slavery without amendment . Now, the amendment does eventually become part of the equation. But i was. But originally it was thought to be part of of of of a reconstruction bill, reconstruction legislation, which would spell out the mechanisms by which the seceded states would come back into the union. So im suggesting its not simply a Straight Line. Again, the emancipation proclamation, to the to the abolition of slavery and then to complicated even further in louisiana tennessee an, arkansas, you also have pro slavery unionists who are trying and so theres a contest,ents particularly in louisiana and tennessee, between free and proslavery unionists. Right. And so lincolns got to figure out how to work this problem out. The short is you have to read my bo to see to s how this actually happens. Right. And we can talk about that a little bit more in the q a. But thats the question that im dealing with in th addition, loe complexities of this in this particular region, its also true addressed this larger question how we get from military emancipation to constutional abolition. One final note ill note before ending. Im not in any way trying to suggest, particularly with this crowd, that the emancipation proclamation is not important or the black contribution there. Ive been part of this this this historiographical revolution, and im the last who would make but what im trying to suggest here is maybe an a more realistic understanding of the limitations of the on thev groud process of emancipation that we in a way, in order to really be complete the destruction of slavery had to be transmuted through the formal institutional of government. Right and ultimately it was that as well as the actions of the slaves is real politics and the political process and institutions that were essential to the ending of slavery. So my my story is really just at the beginning in terms of reconstruct. Right. Because im ending with the ending of slavery 65 and then im going to pass mic over to my esteemed colleague Brian Mitchell whos going to speak a little bit more about the reconstruction period per se. Good afternoon. My name is Brian Mitchell and im the author of monumental oscar and this radical fight and uct in louisiana. Im going to ask you guys to raise your hands if youve ever heard of james done. Okay. Okay. Most of you didnt raise your hands like me. Most of you grew in the shadow of the los cause im. A native of new orleans, louisiana. And being in the shadow of the lost cause meansive immersed is history and immersed in the past since the day i wasyou can go ve you tumble into monument and most of those monuments were dedicate it to cfe or worse still, white supremacist. I saw nothing that resembled fabric. I saw a new monument to black. I saw a newonument to even slaves. Even though new orleans had been one of the nations largest slavewarkets in 1976, i returned to my place of prayer at the city that i love and began goingevery i would come hm second grade and id go to my great grandmothers house. She was born in 1895 and was the granddaughter of a white planter. Myrand would tell me stories and these stories wrapped around reconstruction. Her husband, a man by the name of emanuel dunn, had been the nephew of oscar, the great nephew of oscar. James and and i had heard nothing of this in school at all. And in ft, in 1976, when i returned, it was the bicentennial year. Very happily i went to my second grade class and we were workinge government. The teacher asked, if anyone could recall the names of any governors, the Lieutenant Governors beside the governor that was sitting at the time. I proudly raised my hand shaking back and forth to second graders. Do and when i was called upon and i declared oscar jameunn been our nations First Lieutenant governor, our nations first black Lieutenant Governor, and our nations first black governor. The teacher, shed never heard of him. And in fact, she once i told wa, that that could not have been true. I replied thatng, no, youre wrong. In fact, there have been three of them. I was promptly sent to the principals office. I went home to my great grandmother in tears. Why did you lie to me . Why didnt you tell that . Dunn was all made up . And she replied, its not made up. Its just that hes forgotten. Its at that point, the historian in me was born. Its. that. That i came to be. And i searching. Ntal. Initially he was my dissertation. And i had a fantastic i had an array of fantasticne more impor. A man by the name of raphael kazimir. Hes emeritus now at the of new orleans. And one of the things thats really important between about our connection, he was the very first africanamerican male that i ever had as a teacher ever in my life until my freshman of college. He made such an impression upon me, and he was the first person that knew anything about donne. So got through high School Without ever hearing dunn, without ever hearing, without ever hearing salazar. Antoine all of that history just forgotten. And louisiana■ schools. When i began working on my dissertation, he discouraged me. He said, theres not a lot there, bryan. I dissertation together. There are only three existing articles on him, and i believe that the longest of which was only 20 pages. But i was dedicated this cause and i went out pursuing time, which meant that i had to look at archives and it was all primary research. But i was able to reconstruct time finding things dissolving mess and elevating, done to the place where i believe he rightfully belongs for africanamericans donne is very much like Abraham Lincoln. He starts off enslaved an, educated. He gets the opportunity through his stepfather a free black who had migrated frometersburg, virginia to the city of new orleans, working as a stage carpenter for the great impresario james henry caldwell, the man who would bring American Theater to, new orleans a dunn s elevated and becomes. He remembers and honors james ■h■,last so he had had just thee oscar when he was enslaved but he becomes Oscar James Dunn in tribute to this man who was responsible for his freedom. He rises, becomes a plaster, then becoming the grand mason. So he becomes a free mason in the city of nerleans. And he will become the appointed black official in the nation. A of people ask a lot of people who know the dissertation as why didnt you do a traditional book. Why did you do a graphic history . And this is the first reconstruction graphic history that was done. I quite late into writi m my uny has a dashboard and this computer dashboard tells you where your book is being downloaded. So theres a big map and you can actually see the download and. Theyre just dots on a map. One day i was sitting in my office and, i received a phone call. The phone call was from a middle School Student outside of cleveland and. He was on the phone with his father and he said, id like to thank you. Id like to thank you for writing this dissertation. Likeg a dissertation in middle school . And you never believe that students are actually reading your stuff. So you quiz them. And what did you like about the book . Who were your favorite characters . Who did hate . And he sat there for an hour with, his father, and told me all about the book. I was so taken aback by this that i asked him. I said, how can i get other students your age engage aged in history . Ou know, your book is so relevant to now with the polarization that im seeing in the nation things that are going on. The threats of violence. Hes like, its really right now and its his suggestion that i do it as a graphic novel is why came out as a graphic novel. Im sure some point. Yes. So later additional will out in and it will be an full fledge book for academy. But i thought it was to write for children who are like me that didnt see themselves in the books that theythey know thf reconstruction they didnt know the men who were there. So. So id like with that, id like to pass on the mic to jacob friefeld. Thank john. Thank you, brian. Im going to timeelf or else youll be going to dinner after im done. As harold said. My book is first migrants with the wonderful rick edwards. Our subtitle, which you tried to make longer. We werent able to. How black homesteaders quest for land and freedom. Heralded americas great migration. I think the best for me to describe the book is to sort of start at the beginninghp with jt over 300 black kentuckians in a crowded train station in lexington. They were looking to board a tr promise. They a lot of them holding, their children, all of their worldly possessions. Some had livestock in tow. Different Railroad Lines shouting out to them, trying to get them to ride on their line, lowering their prices after waiting for hours. Their train. Finally left. They had to switched trains. Several times along the journey, unloading goods, reloading them on to the new train at each stop. Al of this to get to their promised land, kansas. Now that should spark a couple questions for your family. Why . Why are these 300 folks going to kansas . Well, there are push and pull factors going on here. Right. These folks these folks experienced what john was talking about they experienced the hard work of emancipation the excitement of the jubilee . H after emancipation, promise of reconstruction by 1877. A lot of that had turned to ashen and. The biggest frustration or one of the largest frustrations was the failure of land reform that the million acres that had been confiscated from, confederate traitors, had been given back to them by lincolns worst decision. Andrew johnson. And so land reform failed in the south. And thats a part of the push factor and the pl factor is the homestead act, which lincoln signed 1862, which offered americans and, immigrants who maintain that they would become citizens of 160 acres of land if stayed on s or ahead of a household and made improvements on the land and for those that dont think in acres, thats land for free. The government was away and that is the pull factor. These folks in this kentuc train station said, well, if we cant get land out here, were going to go west. And its not just land. Its the ability to create a community where you what you say goes right without the unremitting violence and authority of white southerners. And so they go to kansas when arrive they were that thered be already a town built for them. There was no town. The first group that gets there, they Start Building sod houses where they were told theres plentve ever driven through kansas and these folks are coming from kentucky right there, kansas, you know theres not a bunch of timber. And one of my favorite stories willie on a hickman. Shes on the group that goes in nicodemus. And she hadnt been feeling well on the trip. Shes in a wagon because the train station is s 20 miles off from nicodemus and she starts hearing her husband and the other men whipping and celebrating and she said, well, whats going on . Well, theres nicodemus and she remembers and she says, i looked with all the eyes i where is ni . And they were pointing to sod homes. So theyre half dug in the hills with sod bricks and with smoke out of chimneys. And they said there is nicodemus. And she said she wept but they ayed. Nicodemus ends up becoming the largest black homesteader site in the great plains with over 13,000 acres of land he only ones theyre joined by. Tens of thousands more black americans who found places like empire, wyoming. Black them, new mexico. I listen to the names of these places. They they theyre about big business. Theyre like a kingdom of black people. Black out of new mexico, empire, wyoming. Dinwiddie nebraska might not that impressive until you hear they change the name later to audacioushe story these tens of thousands of people who are both a prelude to the great migration thatap whe the lucrative action is in American Cities when you can go to and get wage in northern cities here it those 120 football fields of land youre going to get for free from the government. It also unites to parts of the lincoln legacy emancipation proclamation, which went into effect january 1863 and free land policy, the homestead act, which went into effect january one, 1863. Part of that revolution of the 37th congress in Abraham Lincoln and also changes the way we think about western settlement and who settled the great plains in this country. And i think it grew as bryan and grew out though of of my first book on homesteading and the Homestead National park tell thd is a pretty white story and we know that are folks who are not white that homesteaded or were immigrants from the norwegian and could you look into that and its like yes and and we thought was oh, this is going to be an article. And then, oh, no, there are tens of thousands of folks in the plains alone. This doesnt even consider the western part of the united states, but i think i can stop there. And then we can have a discussion or open it up to questions. If there already, we can bring the microphone out. Oh, theres already question. We were good reserves. 30 minutes for questions. I think we. Have a very practical question. I think professor roderick may came closest to it. So im a slave, a plantation, like you say, in western tennessee. Suddenly we get the the owner is gone. Theyve they fled or whatever the overseer isone. He w 100, 200 slaves. How how do we live . Where is the food coming from . Theres no cash. Were in a cashless. We never had any money. Were in a cash society. The Freedmens Bureau hasnt been created yet. ■there around. Are we going to starve to death . What happened . How did the people. Well, you know, i mean,h thati dont want to sound like im ducking the question but i mean, your your question speaks to the chaos emancipation. The one thing i would emphasize, though, that the certainly the the enslaved had their own resources. They knew they knew how a plantation operated. They they could do that was necessary to do. And there were some instances in which the slave holders did skedaddle 5■i over and they were growing they werent growing food crops. Im sorry, were they growing crops in addition to know, in a way, yes. But not to say that they would completely reject crops either. But were getting way, way ahead of the story mean because i mean, this will take months and years to play itself out. The union army will eventually show. And usually whats happened is theyre liberated union army an. Then then we have the whole problem of military sponsored free labor, right where the Union Officials are basically in charge of this new labor system, and theyre trying to institute a new labor system. And as you can imagine, its an incredibly chaotic i should note, this is what this situation is part of this historiographical revolution that this book just basically builds stuff has been been doney scholars the last 40, 50 years and then even 100 years. Dubois and black scholars were attending to this so that aspect of it in my in my book is not new. Thats what im incorporating the stuff that we already, you know, in that we alread■ y know it was certainly a chaotic process and everybody has all different kinds of assumptions about what this new system will logoing be a new system. And that was not necessarily a done deal because, of course, the north had to win the war and even winning the war was not necessary going to you settle things that thats the best answer that i could give to a very complicated question. Thank. Thank■u you. So i guess this is for brian. And i was really moved by what you said your god bless your grandma mother quite great grandmother what what quite a person and you know we all had teachers who had huge influences on our lives growing up and i think what youre dcr of role md like you can do you knowsituatir children growing up in the south today. I would like to say it has, but cent weve taken a huge step backwards. This identification of everythingca crt the attack on ethnic the attack on difficult histories or hard histories that really taking its toll in the south where many states, particularly southern states, maintain immunities against all sorts of lawsuits. Parents are encouraged that in many of these states to personally sue teachers who are to teaching who are teaching these narratives that are really, really important. Imagine being in a majority minority school, public school. And being told that you cant incorporate the histories of the people that you are teaching to in their. Imagine the impact that has on those children if they never hear a positive word about anyone who look them. The narrative that i was was that africanamericans came over nobody really mean to them. They just treated them like children and. Then all of a sudden, because of the benevolence they let them go one day. It made no sense to me in second grade, third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade, sixth grade. Made no sense. They understand vacuums. I have students that come to me when i, a professor from the live in these . And why are they living into decaying cause of cities . Why dont they all pick up and move out without knowing the histories of■b■ knowing the histories of slum clearance . So can we accurately depict our nation to our children if were under willing to take that hard look at ourselves and the role that we played in making the landscape of the united states. So one of the things that id love to do and im future year o do many, many more graphic histories that tackle difficult topics so childr can understand what has happening in the united states. How did you end up in a racially concenat of, poverty that didnt happen. Exit entirely to anyone. What happened . Ite a lot about the land dispossession in arkansas. I was the first and only state to kick out its entire free black population. And theres never been a book written on it. I spent a year tracking a thousand people who were■x kickd out to figure out where they went. And im to work on a text now. But how do you tell that story . It is a fantastic story. How do you kick out a whole states worth of people and and those scholars do study africanamericans will really that those people were kicked out were mainly women and they were mainly women for one specific reason because you could free your wife or you could free your daughter and that would ensure that every child that was born from that woman would be free. So how do you tell this narrative . And these are why we really have to as academics, start looking at whats being taught in in education, not just being taught within the academy. The information were passing o. But but what are we doing for the children. Just had■x onto that. One of the most Amazing Things to me is when bryan, i crossreference the star databases of folks who were kicked out of arkansas with black homesteaders like be the t project right were going have several people, no matches, i still cant believe it. Its st a quick question. Who were the chief of reconstruction, planning or theory before the emancipation proclamation . I know lincoln was talking about, but somebody had to be thinking or were they just really acting out . What do i know this will be very, very brief. You know, the question of quote unquote, reconstruction goes to the secession crisis, really. I mean, because its about reunite the union. Onhow we go from what what i wod call state restoration, a very limited notion, getting the states back with real fundamta thats thinking, lincs thinking. And most in congress and probably most people in the north, how we get from that to reconstructions part of the story. But every session of congress, just about every session of tried to deal and enact some kind of reconstruction legislation write a bill that would put that would dictate how the states would come back all of the practical that woulhave dealt with even aside from the question of slavery the practical issues that would have to be dealt with. Right. Because as we know, the conundrum of reconstruction is the states never left because they cant leave, but they do in reality left, right. So you have to have some kind of some kind ofon to say whats whos going to be in charge, whos going to be allowed to vote . What are we going to do with the confederate debts, etc. , etc. . So and they the only time they famous wade davis bill. And they were getting into deeply in the weeds. And im not going go any further. But the one bill in 1864 and lincoln pocket vetoes that and i could about that for an hour because it really does raise interesting issues the question of reconstruction had been around from very beginning and every session ofh it. But infighting republicans themselves as to what this is going to look like. The democrats are able to exploit in congress are able to exploit the divisions amongsree to do and think about this theres no reconstruction bill passed until radical reconstruction in 1867. Thats when settlemeand thats d here thats what were getting into here and ive done my own work on you on postwar reconstruction. Like i was of, yu know, going back to the the prehistory of the previous work that ive done that was a longer question answer than i had to provide. But did you want to speak to it or. Yes, wed have a couple. Okay. And i was going to say that the reconstruction it depends on what youean by reconstruction and what he was saying. 1866 is a pivotal year. 66 be two massive riots that will take place. Theyre actually but people like to call violence. That was by whites riots and not massacres. The first is in memphis and the second it takes place in the ci orleans. They were organized, involved, hundreds of white perpetrators. Many of the perpetrators did so with the guidance of elected officials. Many included Police Officers and. Many were former confete alarm. Could we go back . Could the civil war restart . And thats when theision really made that. We really have to take firm control of all of these states, these former states replace their leadership with people who are loyal to, the republican cause and under that climate that done bemean appointed official first to the city council as a member of the junior council, he is one of two africanamerican men that are selected for that post. But this is happening throughout south at the same time, just one very quick follow, one very quick follow up. The epilog of my book, just the epilog. I deal with the new orleans and memphianho it in a way that you know the two cities at either end of the Lower Mississippi are so crucial to the you know to to reconstruction the proximate cause of the riot in may was black soldiers and the proximate cause in new was black suffrage. The two most explosive issues that face country that the black soldiers who were serving the army of occupation. And the question black suffrage. Right sos no coincidence that e were the two issues that set off this racial violence in these two cities in. Is valley. But i know we have a question youve been waiting for a while, man. Good afternoon. I want to go back to the second e. Doctor and ask, did your teacr or the principal could you flip the script on them day . And answering that question, did they ever receive their education . Did they ever accept any valid of what you said coming from your great grandmother . Is personal oral history . You know, i get that question a lot. Theyre like, hey, did you see your second grade teacher first . I wouldnt her. And then she maybe 60 at the time. So oh i i doubt that shed be alive. Id say look it wasnt my fault i was just regurgitating what id taught in my entire ancould have a broader discussion of the continuity of dunning scholars and law schools narrative. But no, i havent. In fact, i havent even been invited back to the school that i was. And i always prominently talk about the school and and pitch for them, but i havent ever been invited back to one of the things thats really fun is i do visit classrooms around the country most of the time, zoom and, the publisher created, a foundation wcopies of the book s who cant afford to publish it to purchase the books themselves. I have a question about what happened after longstreet lost the bale i the center of new orleans. They had to send sheridan in. How did that occupy asian out . I mean, i think they they held the lid on for a while, but obviously the inevitable happened out. But how did the occupation transpire, if i may ask . Well, there are a couple of things that we have to talkabouf 1872 and that lection is highly disputed, both parties maintain that they won. Democrats maintain that they won in and the republicans that they run and instead one of them conceding all of them had their own offices and they may they were two separate governments in louiana hee time. So there was a governor jenner and and then a governor kellogg and both of them maintain that they were the rightful governor, the earliest sort of play out, violent play out of this reaction happened easter morning right before they were supposed to install the new government in grant parish. Blacks got wind that the democrats were going to go and and they decide were going go out in number and protect our county seat because we won. We were th majority in this county. They were not prepared for. What happened . They there and there were hundreds of former confederates with of rifles and cannon and they get the county seat lay lay and when the blacks surrender, theyre taken and theyre executed as many150 africanamericans died that day. And things would get worse from that point on. River there wouldmassacre would. And the culminating war would take place in the city of new orleans. A couple of years later. And that culminated with 5000 former confederates nowd the banner of the white league laying siege to the city of new orleans. And youre quite correct, they will take the city of new orleans. And this is one of the effects that is one of the unknown effects of donnes death. Donne was always a moderating factor. He had support of both the republican and democratic camps. He was he didnt want blacks to join white institutions. He didnt want an integrated free black masons. He realized that was the source, their power. That was the place they organize. He said, can build anything they have. We dont nessus hourly need to join their clubs or go do theaters. Well just build our own modera. Everything devolves into violence violence. Just a quick follow. Im sorry to be hogging the microphone but the episode that brian talks about is known as course, in april of 1873, the colfax massacre. And theres been some very good books on the column, the facts massacre, and it is the single most violent episode, all of reconstruction in terms of the number black fatalities, we dont know the exact number, but its 150 is probably a i dont think its i dont think its any coincidence that the federal military Red River Campaign in the spring of 1864, led by nathaniel banks, is a disaster. It is a catastrophe in northwest louisiana. It can claim to be un vanquished during the civil war and i dont think its any coincidence that this area that claims to be un vanquished winds up being one of the most violent places in the entire south during reconstruction. And thats saying a lot right the violence and reconstruct action so the evidence, the events that bryan is talking about are part of this this larger scenario, violence thats prevailing in louisiana, and particularly in in in northwestern louisiana. And this takes me back because a previous life, i started writing a book on 1872 election in louisiana, but its kind of unfinished business. So. An came in and actually established martial law as, i recall, in new orleans, and then they had to hand it back, though and well, eventualy everybody did. But i was wondering how that occupation went very shortix and that was it. I mean, but what what what thats the battle what is no comes to known as the battle to replace and then theres a monument, you know, to the great victory over k victory white sut the Liberty Place was Liberty Place demonstrated that the republicans could not even contronew orleans, which was the capital and their home base without federal troops. And the north is not going to stomach federal indefinitely. So the writing clearly on the wall with Liberty Place. Right that this is this is not to last much longer. Ill follow up segway in federal Ulysses Grant the■ vote in the wake of emancipation and the the decision to stay as long as they did and when they pulled out its like hell continue to break loose that didnt seem to be any stays of systems to assure any of social anything. So you take on grant after and emancipate. Knowledge knowledge. Okay. All right. Traditional story has been that grants record is bad on reconstruction, but ron chernows book biogray ant thats ago, i dont think i he wasnt you know, he wasnt trying to make excuses for grant, but he i think he kind of rebuilt hated in. Grants commitment to black civil rights. And i think he i think hes right you know in that grant but you know by the 1870s there is there there is so much against this, right. That even, you know, even grant is having trouble negotiating and grant had his problems. Lets face. And i dont mean the alcoholics. I mean politically. Right. Wasnt terribly astute in many respects. And so he did he did have his issues, you know, as president. But i think chernow, i think does a really goodshowing that. You know, he really did try to do right by him, by africanamericans, but he was just overwhelmed and and he grant during the war on on including black soldiers in the effort. So he sees that as part of grants genuine and and so i think it is an interesting take on on grant himself because the again the traditional view was and his reconstruction was just a complete fiasco and a failure. And it is its as always, more complicated than that. In the spring 1869, dunn make a fateful trip and trip is important for a number first, its the first black political junket that ever happens, and its followed by newspapers all over the orleanst starts at the Great Northern railroad. A lot of students ask me, well, what happened to pgti, you know, pierre, to tout gustav beauregard immediately following the war, king becomes the t, the Great Northern railroad. So dunn shows up and he wants buy a first class ticket and he wants to go up to the see ulyss. And hes allowed to buy a first class ticket, but hes told you cant, right . Coach, you have to ride in the , which meant that you had to sit up. There were no sleeper cars. The Lieutenant Governor of the state state. When he gets off in kentucky, hes nomnibus. Hes traveling with another white republican senator. And by the name of lynch a tolo ride at the top of the car with the driver and that was called the perch and or you can walk. So he hires his own carriage. By this point hes made a lot of money for himself hires his own carriage take them across the river and its until he gets in ohio that hes allowed to have first class it to washington in d. C. And he had called ahead the night the Lieutenant Governor of louisiana would like to stay in the willard. But when he arrived at the willard isat they see this afri. So they tell him you welcome to sign the guestbook but you cannot stay in the hotel. Grant will actually dunn and grant and dunn will develop a