Well, we want to look today as what, if anything, he meant by that, how sincere he was or how well he understood his own commitment to and concept of friendship. And i have a group of very accomplished friends to explore that topic with me. Chuck strosier, who has spoken at the Lincoln Forum who brings his experience as a psychoanalyst, psychobiographer, a onetime resident of springfield. By which i mean he knows about lincolns springfield. Not that one must be a psychoanalyst to live in springfield, although we dont know. And of course as an authority which is the subject of his latest book on the complex relationship between Abraham Lincoln and his only really close friend, joshua speed. Well hear more about that in the panel. Edna green medford, a member of the forum and has written and lectured here on the subject of lincoln, emancipation, race, equality and africanamerican life and lives. We welcome her perspective as well. Another expert on lincolns illinois years is another forum friend who has written authoritatively about lincoln and the eighth judicial circuit in illinois, our friend guy fraker. Finally, another expert you are all familiar with, whose expertise on lincoln and his fellow union politicians, republican politicians, particularly the war governors of the civil war era we plan to probe further, the new Standard Authority on lincoln and the war governors, steven engels. Welcome to all of you. [ applause ] so the subject is lincoln and his friends, lincoln and friendship. We just heard the quote, the better part of ones life consists of friendships. And yet over the years a good many of lincolns friends successively, that is his earliest friends would complain when he moved onto another level of society, and it happened frequently, would complain that lincoln tended not to retain his old friends but actually tended to discard them. To springfield he moved as a young man, and one might say he shed his new salem friends. And when he left springfield he left his springfield friends behind once he moved to washington. If you take the circuit writing lawyer and ill ask guy about this in a moment, his circuit writing chum david davis at his word, lincoln abandoned his most faithful friends even before he left springfield reluctant to give them jobs and spoils once he was elected president. Let me quote the coowner of the Chicago Tribune who expected more awards than he received and who blurted out after the election when lincoln seemed less friendly than before, we made abe and by god, we can unmake him. So what do we make of this . One more quote. Leonard sweat, another friend of lincolns who wrote some of mr. Lincolns friends insisted that he lacks the storing attributes of personal affection which he ought to have exhibited. What do we think . How good a friend was Abraham Lincoln, and what do we make of this testimony that he tended not to store longstanding friendships . And we should start in the illinois years so lets start with chuck and guy, if we can. Interesting question. Is this on . Now its not. It seems to me there are two questions of how good a friend was he and then the examples that you gave where friendships didnt last and sort of starts at the back of my story with speed, as lincoln would say ass backwards. But the way in which speed served such a crucial function for him was far and away his best friend and nurtured him through his deep struggles for nearly three and a half years when they slept together, and then speed got married and moved to kentucky, got married. And in the two months leading up to the actual wedding theres an extraordinary series of letters that some of you have heard me talk about. And culminating in the letter on february 25th, 1842, when speed actually consummated the marriage and the roof didnt fall in and he writes lincoln two days before and lincoln writes, his hand is still shaking ten hours later, still trembling. Well, what happened was the marriage was consummated, so he kind of vicariously worked things through. But it was the climax of the relationship between lincoln and speed and its the emotional turning point in the life of Abraham Lincoln. But two things happened after that. One is that he, after a couple of months in that summer, he returns again to courting mary who had graciously waited for him as he wrestled his demons to the ground after the broken engagement of january 1841. And speed becomes less significant as a friend. They had never become enemies. Speed later, of course, played an Important Role in kentucky, keeping kentucky in the union. He visited often during the white house years. But they started quarrelling over some cases in the 1840s that speed was handling for lincoln. And i think what he was able to work through in this friendship vicariously allowed for him to both return to mary, return to his path of love and marriage and eventually children and growth and healing his underlying depression. But also speed didnt matter anymore. So he moved beyond him and the close texture of their friendship ended at that point. Yeah, i want to add to that, though. I think that this is rather harsh on lincoln, but i think the only friend that he had that was an unconditional friend that didnt have some ulterior motive for forming that friendship was speed. It came at a time in his life where he needed a friend. There was no giveandtake. Speed couldnt do anything particularly for him, so that makes him unique as far as im concerned. My affection for lincoln in writing my book which becomes very much about his relationships on the circuit, i find that i admire him more, but i like him less. He was always, in my view, looking for a friend who could help him. And to start with the classic, his closest friend is david davis, the judge. Well, davis was the judge so you would be friends with him if you could be. And david himself very shortly after lincolns death sent a letter to herndon that said lincoln was a peculiar man. He had no affection for anybody. He thought only of himself, he never confided. And all these Circuit Associates say the same thing. And marys family says that he was a cold man, he showed no emotion, he didnt care about anybody but himself. In all of that, though, i rationalize from his Opening Statement when he ran for the legislature in 1832, and he said all men are im not quoting precisely but this is the gist, all men are said to have their own peculiar ambition. In my case i want to be highly esteemed by my fellow man and i want to do everything i can to be so highly esteemed. I think he was on a mission from day one not to be president but to be somebody. And friendship can be a bit of baggage if you have relationships you have to tend to to the same extent theyre attending to you. I think that of him which is a fairly harsh judgment. Except you must consider that he saved our nation with this focus. And so perhaps it was worthwhile that he had that attitude. Edna . I think its problematic when we talk about lincolns friendships without defining what friendship is and what it means in the 19th century and to a complex person like lincoln. So he has many personal acquaintances, i think. Some of them closer to him than others, and in various categories. Im reminded of david donalds book. I think it was called we are lincolns men or Something Like that. It was written many years ago. And he talks about the various categories that these people fit into. And so i think before we can even decide how friendly he was he was friendly to everyone, it seems. But clearly there are degrees of friendship that he expresses with people in washington. And in springfield. Let me add to that. I think of all the governors who had any relationship beyond, you know, an acquaintance relationship would be richard yates. And i think yates, they went back a few years in their past. And i think when yates becomes governor the same year that lincoln becomes president its interesting that yates reaches out to lincoln to read some of his, you know, attempts at writing an inaugural speech, and lincoln is very honest with him and in fact, at one point would refuse to do it for fear it would jeopardize the relationship between the two men and but he also fired if he was being honest with yates it probably wasnt a very good document and he would take offense. So he resisted that. But i think as the war went on, yates believed that he could use his relationship with lincoln, being from illinois, being a person who was perceived to have had perhaps more than an acquaintance with lincoln. But i would agree that once lincoln leaves springfield among the 59 or at least the governors who make their way to washington, its really nothing more than acquaintance that they really share. And even john andrew, im working on a biography right now and john andrew is among those who make repeated trips to washington. And hes probably among the three or four that see lincoln the most during the american civil war. And even though theyre very different political leaders, i think they had a tremendous respect for one another. But and i dont think its extended beyond anything more than just an acquaintance. Let me flip the question for everyone to have a go at. So im accepting all the Different Things that youve said, which almost add up to the same thing, there were degrees of friendship. There were degrees of acquaintanceship and political alliance. He was not on the circuit as a younger man he was seeking acquaintanceships or friendships that would benefit him both legally and politically. The great exception is josh speed, but even that fated by geographical separation, opinions over slavery and other things, or maturing, other things that may have divided them. So my question is what was there about lincoln that so magically and so continuously attracted men as friends, acolytes, admirers of he was never short of circles of people who, you know, moth to flame, admirers. So what do you think . Chuck, we can start with you again. First of all, theres a context, which is that the separate fears, and i think women moved in the female sphere and the men moved in the male sphere. And that was a very important difference. And in that male sphere lincoln was a mans man, and he was greatly admired, real tall, very athletic, incredibly strong. Speeds description of him was almost gushing. How strong and powerful he was. He wrestled the clancy boys when he first arrived in salem. He used to ride and also judge gander pulling, which is just this outrageous sport where you string a goose on a rope and then you grease his neck and the horse would ride at full speed and try to rip the neck off. And he felt that was great, a real manly thing to be doing. And he loved horses. He was a very good horseback rider. So i think the part of what brought respect for from other men was this sense of just physical respect for him and a real presence. I think that comes across, you know, indirectly. Indirectly. Theres a curious thing about peoples mens he was not friends with women. He tended to have some friends mrs. Browning, for example, mrs. Able in new salem, who were older married, matronly figures. After he married mary and they started having children he treated her like an older married matronly figure. They were the exceptions. Basically he moved in a male world chic of the time. But men who were friends with lyndon tended to experience him as their best friend. He had a way of drawing people into his orbit that made them feel special in that context, even if i agree it didnt really last, even if the friendships didnt necessarily have legs and there might in certain circumstances be somewhat not exploitive but manipulative. To add to that, id go so far as to call him a jock. He was a great athlete. You see all these things he could do. There was an account of a foot race he ran in front of the courthouse in urbana for example. In the diary entry of the relatively illiterate carpenter said a beat. He runs a foot race during a Court Session in a foot race in urbana. His wrestling is wellknown. Theres an event that occurred win monticello, illinois, during a Court Session there was a butchers ax, a relatively small incident, i had to find out what that is the account seems impossible. He and another lawyer had a bet, lets see how far you can throw this butchers ax. They do warmups and the other lawyer winds up and throws this thing. It goes a fair distance and lincoln warms up and throws it the same distance. Okay, lets go. This one counts. This guy goes first and his goes a little farther than his warmup toss. Lincoln throw the thing, you can tell how far he throw it into a creek at the bottom of the courthouse hill. Ive measured it. Its about 100 yards. I cant imagine anybody being able to do this. Pyrenees are accounts he did this. Theres constant references to his athletic skills. The long jump, a nativeamericanafricanamerican half nativeamerican in clinton, illinois that was the champ. Nobody could touch this guy in the long jump. He did beat lincoln but just barely and he outbroad jumped everybody in the contest. These accounts are repeated in this is athletic ability. Real quick, i think he had such tremendous charisma as a person and such warmth as a persona people overlooked this d detachment of his they all talk about, thats lincoln, let him go. I think we could all buy in if it wasnt for the greased goose story. Gander pulling. You want to add to it . I think he was selfeffacing. He was not a threat to men. He was not the most attractive person in the world. He weighs folksy. I think they saw him as someone they didnt have to compete with him. He was very ambitious but i dont think they felt they had to compete with him for attention of the ladies. Certainly not. As guy indicated he was able to make people feel at home, at leafs men feel at home. If you have a situation like that and youre an athlete as well, its very easy, i think, to be accepted by the average man. The interesting thing about lincoln, got it to see lincoln through all the governors who would come to washington and see him for the first time, even hips secretaries who would join the governor who would come to washington. Im struck by a couple of instances, ill give you one. John andrew would come to washington and always take the same secretary. The secretary would come back and tell the other secretaries about lincolns rugged features, hes immense and tall and looks fierce. They were always impressed by his disarming ef facing attitude towards andrew. Towards the end of the year, andrew brings on a new secretary and anxious to go to washington the summer of 64. They spend probably about an hour with lincoln, which is rather unique. Within the first few minutes, this secretary, i just found this this spring, he was struck number one by the physical appearance of lincoln, how he looked, which contrasted sharply with how he acted. He would say in andrews presence. Remember, andrew is probably less than 59, 10, lincoln is 64. The one thing that struck the secretary, lincoln looks like this beanpole. I was so amazed how far under the chin of Lincoln Andrew came up to. He looked like a Little Orange compared to lincoln yet lincoln understood the differences in their physical appearances and managed to arrive at a discussion and conversation that in no way was demeaning or disrespectful to someone obviously a little more portly, a little shorter and a person who really struggled with his appearance. The secretary was struck by lincolns his manner, his charisma. And so for me, it was the perceptions of lincoln through the eyes of governors and their secretaries who would log in those experiences. One thing i would add is, you know, ive known politics and elected officials and there is an increased yearning to be their friends or be in their glow when they achieve power. Lincoln, for all of his modesty and selfef facement was pretty grand and selfconfident as president , maybe in his final days in illinois he was quite a presence. People wanted to be part of the political march as well. No great man is ever humble. I wanted to say something, you mentioned the charisma. One of the things i sort of stumbled on and make a lot of in my book, not as though no one ever noticed it and no one ever did this, lincoln and speed moved in aeg together april 13th, 1857 when he moved to springfieldy this wonderful story of arriving in the store and wants to buy a bed for 17. Speed says, well, i have a big bed upstairs and a lot of room. Why dont you stay with me and he goes upstairs and dropped his saddlebags and says, well, speed, im moved. They slept together the next 3 1 2 years in the same bed and a question what it meant. He became undoubtedly his closest friend. The intimacy, openness didnt really it took from midapril, 1837 until sometime in the fall, cant date this exactly, sometime in this fall of 1839 their closeness flowered. The man that became his best friend it took him a couple years to really fully open up. Once it did open up a dynamic developed that was very unusual and unlike any other relationship in lincolns life, where both speed and lincoln sort of opened up to the male community and they started what really is a kind of salon. It started in the late fall of 1839. And speed later in writing letters to herndon said every night the young lights of springfield would come and they all came only because of lincoln. Speed is very clear about that. But the people who came included john j. Harding, many others, butler, and also steven a. Douglas. They would go and speed would make the fire in the back of the store and the end of the day and the leading lights really in some way leading intellectuals in illinois if not the country were of different political persuasions would gather there and they would come because of lincoln. They started talking for a few weeks. The one topic off the table you couldnt talk politics. Can you imagine Abraham Lincoln and Steven Douglas sitting in the back of a store and not talking politics. Serious somebody said, we have to talk about this in a different context. Then they agreed in january of 1840, to hold an 8day debate in the local Presbyterian Church and each person had day and there were eight of them and speed remembered verbatim, he went to everything lincoln taught and wrote nearly verbatim the speech that he gave. Whats so interesting in this context about his charisma, people were so drawn to lincoln, he would endlessly tell stories, he was funny, could listen to people and could talk. This orbit, incredibly male orbit that gathered in the back of speeds store, it was a group of the leading young men in springfield meeting in the back of speeds store while the high fall lu tin coatery met in the edwards store and they danced and they greeted them in french. You h