Next, the panel of scholars talks about Abraham Lincolns friendships both before and after he became president. This was part of the annual lincoln symposium in gettysburg, pennsylvania. Its just under an hour. Welcome to the Lincoln Forum and to a special Panel Discussion on lincolns friends. Lets start, if we can, with a lincoln quote because on todays topic, as with most subjects, Abraham Lincoln expressed himself better than almost anyone, and as he said in 1849, the better part of ones life consists of his friendships. Well, we want to look today at what, if anything, he meant by that. How sincere he was or how well he understood his own commitment to and concept of friendship. And i have a group of very accomplished friends to explore that topic with me. Chuck strozier who has spoken at the Lincoln Forum. Who brings his experience as a psycho analyst, a psychobiographer, a one time resident of springfield. Which i moon he knows about lincoln springfield, not one must be a psychoanalyst to live in springfield. Although,. And, of course, as an authority, which is the subject of his latest book on the complex relationship between Abraham Lincoln and his only really close friend joshua speed. Well hear more about that in the panel. A member of the executive committee of the Lincoln Forum and has written and lectured here at the forum at on the subject of lincoln, emancipation, race, equality and africanamerican life and lives. We welcome her perspective as well. Another expert on lincolns illinois years is another forum friend who has written authoritatively about lincoln and the eighth judicial circuit in illinois, our friend guy fraker. And finally, another expert youre all familiar with and whose expertise on lincoln and his fellow union politicians, republican politicians, particularly the war governors of the civil war era we plan to probe further, the new Standard Authority on lincoln and the war governors, stephen engel. So welcome to all of you. [ applause ] so the subject is lincoln and his friends. Lincoln and friendship. We just heard the quote, the better part of ones life consists of friendships. And yet over a good number of years, a good number of lincolns friends successively, his earliest friends would complain when he moved on to another level of society and it happened frequently, would complain that lincoln tended the not to retain his old friends but actually tended to discard them. So springfield he moved as a young man and one might say he shed his new salem friends. When he left springfield, he left his springfield friends behind once he moved to washington. If you take the circuit riding lawyer, and ill ask guy about this in a moment, his circuit riding chum, david davis, at his word, lincoln abandoned his most faithful illinois friends even before he left springfield, reluctant to give them jobs and spoils once he was elected president. Let me quote joseph madille, coowner of the chicago tribune, who expected more rewards than he received and who blurted out after the election when lincoln seemed less friendly than before, we made abe, and, by god, we can unmake him. So, what do we make of this . One more quote, leonard sweat, another friend of lincolns, who wrote, some of mr. Lincolns friends insisted that he lacked the storing attributes of personal affection, which he ought to have exhibited. What do we think . How good a friend was Abraham Lincoln and what do we make of this testimony that he tended not to store longstanding friendships . We should start in the illinois years. So lets start with chuck and guy, if we can. Interesting question. Is this on . Yes. Now its not. It seems to me there are two questions how good a friend was he and then the examples that you gave where friendships didnt last. And sort of starts at the back of my story with speed, as lincoln would say, ass backwards, but the way in which speed served such a crucial function for him was far and away his best friend and nurtured him through his deep struggles for nearly 3 1 2 years when they slept together, speed got married, moved to kentucky, got married and then in the two months leading up to the actual wedding, there is an extraordinary series of letters that some of you have heard me talk about, and culminating in the letter on february 25th, 1842, when speed actually consummated the marriage and the roof didnt fall in and he writes lincoln two days before and lincoln writes that his hand is still shaking ten hours later. Still trembling. Well, what happened was the marriage was consummated. So he kind of vicariously worked things through. It was the climax of the relationship between lincoln and speed. The emotional turning point in the life of Abraham Lincoln. But two things happened after that. One is that he after a couple of months in that summer, he returns again to courting mary, who had graciously waited for him as he wrestled his demons to the ground after the broken engagement of january of 1841. And speed becomes less significant as a friend. They never become enemies. Speed later, of course, played an Important Role in kentucky, keeping kentucky in the union. He visited, often during the white house years, but they started quarrelling over some cases in the 1840s that speed was handling for lincoln and i think it what he was able to work through in this friendship vicariously allowed for him to both return to mary, return to his path of love and eventually children and growth and healing his underlying depression, but also speed was no longer didnt matter anymore. And so he moved beyond him in the close next, the close texture of their friendship ended at that point. I want to add to that, though. I think that this is rather harsh on lincoln, but i think the only friend he had that was an unconditional friend that didnt have soma some ulterior e was speed. There was no give and take. Speed couldnt do anything particularly for him. So that makes him unique, as far as im concerned. My affection for lincoln in writing my book becomes very much about his relationships on the circuit. I find that i admire him more but i like him less. He was always, in my view, looking for a friend who could help him. And you start with the classic, his closest friend is david davis, the judge. Davis was the judge. So he would be friends with him in you could be. Davis himself, very shortly after lincolns death did a letter that said lincoln was a peculiar man. He had no affection for anybody. He thought only of himself. He never confided. And all these Circuit Associates say the same thing. Marys family said he was a cold man. He showed no emotion. He didnt care about anybody but himself. All of that i rationalized from his Opening Statement when he ran for the legislature in 1832, and he said, all men are said to have im not quoting it precisely, but this is the gist. All men are said to have their own peculiar ambition, in my case its to be highly esteemed by my fellow man and i want to do everything i can to be so highly esteemed. I think he was on a mission from day one not to be president , but to be somebody. Friendship can be a bit of baggage if you have relationships you have to tend to to the same extent that theyre attending to you. So i think that of him, which is a fairly harsh judgement, except you must consider that he saved our nation with this focus. So perhaps it was worthwhile that he had that attitude. Edna . I think its problematic when we talk about lincolns friendships without defining what friendship is or what it means in the 19th century and what it means to a complex person like lincoln. And so he has many personal acquaintances, i think. Right. Some of them closer to him than others and in various categories. Im reminded of david donalds book, i think it was called we are lincolns men or Something Like that that was written many years ago, and he talks about the various categories that these people fit into. So i think before we can even decide how friendly he was he was friendly to everyone, it seems, but clearly there are degrees of friendship that he expresses with people in washington and in springfield. Yeah. And let me add to that, i think of all the governors who really had any, you know, relationship beyond, you know, an acquaintance relationship would be richard yates. I think yates they went back a few years in their past, and i think when yates becomes governor the same year that lincoln becomes president , its interesting that yates reaches out to lincoln to read some of his, you know, attempts at writing an inaugural speech and lincolns very honest with him, and, in fact, at one point would refuse to do it for fear it might jeopardize the relationship between the two men, also he feared if he were being honest with yates it probably wasnt a very good document and he would take offense. So he resisted that. I think as the war went on, yates believed that he could use his relationship with lincoln being from illinois, being a person who is perceived to have had perhaps more than an acquaintance with lincoln. I would agree once lincoln leaves springfield, among the 59, at least the governors who make their way to washington, its really nothing more than an acquaintance that they really share. And even, you know, john andrew, im working on a biography right now and john andrew is among those who make repeated trips to washington. Hes probably among the three or four who see lincoln the most during the american civil war, and even though theyre very different, you know, very different political leaders, i think they had a tremendous respect for one another, but and i dont think it extended beyond anything more than just an acquaintance. Let me flip the question for everyone to have a go at. So im accepting all the Different Things that youve said, which almost add up to the same thing, there are degrees are friendship. There are degrees of acquaintanceship and political alliance. He was not on the circuit as a younger man. He was seeking acquaintanceships or friendships that would benefit him, both legally and politically, and as chuck pointed out, the great exception is josh speed, but even that faded by geographical separation, opinions over slavery and other things that or maturing. Other things that may have divided them. So my question is, what was there about lincoln that so magically and so continuously attracted men as friends, acolytes, admirers . He was never short of circles of people who, you know, moth to flame admirers. So what do you think . Chuck, we can start with you again. So, first of all, there is a context, which is that the fears, and i think women moved in the female sphere and man moved in the male sphere. That was a very important difference. In that male sphere, lincoln was a mans man and he was greatly admired. Real tall, very athletic, incredibly strong, you know, speeds descriptions of him are almost gushing of how strong and powerful he was. He wrestled the mcclancy boys when he first arrived in new salem. He used to ride and judge gander pulling, this outrageous sport where you string a goose on a rope and grease his neck and the horse arrived at full speed and try to rip the neck off. So this was speed thought that was great. A real manly thing to be doing. [ laughter ] and he loved horses. He was a very good horseback rider. So i think that part of what brought respect for from other men was this sense of just physical respect for him. He had a real presence. I think that comes across, you know, indirectly. And there is a curious thing about peoples mens he was not friends with women. He tended to have some friends, mrs. Browning, for example, mrs. Abel in new salem who were older, married matronly figures. After he married mary, he treated her like an older, matronly figure. Basically he moved in a male world, which was characteristic of the time. But men who were friends with lincoln tended to experience him as their best friend. He had a way of drawing people into their into his orbit that made them feel special in that context, even if, i agree with guy, even if it didnt really last, even if the friendships didnt necessarily have legs and there might in certain circumstances be somewhat not exploitive but manipulative. Just to add to that, i think we can go so far as to call him a jock. He was a great athlete. You see all the things he can do. There is an account of a foot race he ran in front of the courthouse in urbana, for example, and the diary entry of the relatively illiterate carpenter said abe beat. He runs a foot race during Court Session down a main street in urbana. His wrestling is wellknown. There is an event that occurred in monticello, illinois, where between Court Sessions they had a butchers ax, which is a relatively small instrument. I had to find out what that is because the account is so remarkable, it seemed impossible. He and this other lawyer sort of had a gentlemans bet, lets see who can throw this butchers ax further. So they do warmups and the other lawyer winds up and throws this thing. And it goes a fair distance. Lincoln sort of warms up and throws it the same distance. They go, okay, this one counts. This guy goes first and his goes a little farther than his warmup toss. You can tell how far it went because he threw it into the creek at the bottom of the courthouse hill. Its like 100 yards, and i cant imagine anybody being able to do this. These are accounts he did this. Thats an example. There is constant references to his athletic skills. The long jump. There was a native american, half africanamerican half native american in clinton, illinois, that was the champ, and everybody nobody could touch this guy in the long jump. He did beat lincoln, but just barely. He outjumped everybody in the contest. Sop these accounts are constantly repeated of this athletic ability. Plus, real quick, just to summarize it all, i think he had such tremendous charisma as a person and such warmth as a persona, that people overlooked this detachment of his that they all talk about. Thats lincoln, let him go. So i think that had a lot to do with it. I think we can all buy it if it wasnt for the greased goose story. [ laughter ] gander pulling. I dont want to do you want to add to that, edna . I think he was selfeffacing. He was not a threat to men. He was not the most attractive person in the world. He was folksy. I think they looked at him and saw him as someone that they didnt have to compete with in that way. We know that he was very ambitious politically, but i dont think other men felt they had to compete with him for the attention of the ladies, certainly not. And as guy indicated, he was able to make people feel at home, at least men feel at home, so if you have a situation like that and you have an athlete as well, then its very easy, i think, to be accepted by the average man. Yeah, the interesting thing about lincoln is i got to see lincoln through all of the governors who would come to washington and see him for the first time. And even the secretaries who would join the governors who would come to washington. And im struck by a couple of incidents. Ill give you one. John andrew frequented washington and he would always take essentially the same secretary, and this secretary would come back and tell the other secretaries about lincolns rugged features. Hes immense, hes tall, he looks just, you know, fierce. They were always impressed by his disarming, you know, effacing attitude towards andrew. Towards the end of the year, andrew brings on a new secretary and anxious to go to washington. They go to washington the summer of i think its 1864. They spend probably about an hour with lincoln, which is rather unique. Within the first few minutes, this secretary i just found this this spring, so its a great, great story. He was struck, number one, by the physical appearance of lincoln. How he looked which contrasted sharply with how he acted. And he would say in andrews presence, you have to remember, andrews probably less than 59, 510 and lincoln is, of course, 64. And the one thing that struck this secretary, lincoln looks like this bean pole and i was so amazed at how far under the chin of Lincoln Andrew came up to. He looked like a Little Orange compared to lincoln, and yet lincoln understood the difference in their physical appearances and managed to arrive at a discussion and a conversation that in no way was demeaning or, you know, disrespectful to someone who was obviously a little more portly, a little shorter and a person who really struggled with his self his appearance. And the secretary was struck by lincolns, you know, just his manner, his charisma, and so but for me, it was the perceptions of lincoln through the eyes of governors and their secretary whos would then log in those experiences. I mean, one thing i would add is, you know, ive known politicians and elected officials, and there is an increased yearning to be their friends or to be in their glow when they achieve power. And lincoln, for all of his modesty and all of his selfeffacement, was pretty grand and selfconfident as president and maybe even, you know, in his final days in illinois, he was quite a presence and people wanted to be part of the political march as well. No great man is ever humble. I want to just Say Something that guy mentioned the charisma. And one of the things that i sort of stumbled on and make a lot of in my book, its not as though no one ever noticed it but no one ever did anything with this. Lincoln and speed moved in together on april 15th, 1857 when he moved from new salem to springfield. This wonderful story of arriving in the store and wants to buy a bed for 17. Speed says, well, i have a big bed upstairs and a lot of room. Why dont you stay with me. He goes upstairs and drops his saddle bags and says, well, speed, im moved. They slept together for the next 3 1 2 years in the bed. Which is another question we can get to, what it meant, but he became undoubtedly his closest friend. But the intimacy and the openness didnt really it took from midapril 1837 until some time in the fall, cant date this thing exactly, but sometime in the fall of 39 that really their closeness flowers. The man who became his best friend, it took him a couple of years to fully open up. Once it did open up, a kind of dynamic developed that was very unusual and unlike any relationship in lincolns life, where both speed and lynn continue sort of opened up to the male community and they started what really is a kind of a salon. And it started in the late fall of 1839. And speed later in writing letters said that, you know, every night the young lights of springfield would come and they all came only because of lincoln. Speed is very clear abou